Blizzard Needs to Define Boundaries of Competitive Play

[Twen]

It's not meaningless. Plenty of folks still want to unlock stuff they don't have without having to buy boxes. And since competitive gives more for simply showing up, win or lose, players show up and do whatever. Be it trolling, stubborn, etc. If it's in regards to getting points for golden weapon skins, then maybe they should increase what you get for a win, decrease or remove points for a loss, and lower end of season rewards. Or remove it altogether or make them obtainable some other way. I'm in the same boat as Tziva. I play competitive because I enjoy working as a team, and I play it to win. The extra experience and competitive points I barely even consider a bonus.

Regular loot boxes will come easy enough by playing the other game modes, so going out of your way to that one mode you have no real interest in whatsoever just for a little bit more exp alone really makes no sense to me at all. The exp difference is really not that big. That was my point, and nothing else. Anyway, regarding golden guns, they did lower the end of season rewards already, but now just playing gives more than it used to in exchange, so there's that. I agree that the main point of playing comp should be the mode itself, though, but it's still gonna need at least some rewards to keep a healthy participation; and then we get back to the issue that as long as there are rewards there will be people just playing for those alone while taking the lowest effort route. It's tough.

[ComputerNerd]

I think players need to define the boundaries of competetive play. You find people who play within your boundaries then you put them on your friends list. When you see them on you invite them and you get your game on the way you want to play.

If you use a random group button to determine your team mates then you get what you asked for, random people who play in random ways. It is not a guaranteed 'best of the best button', it is a random group button. You push that button you are rolling the dice and sometimes you come up craps.

You as the player are capable of being in complete control of who you play with but it requires more than just 1 button push and mental effort to try. Instead you want to bitch and moan when a random group button does what it is designed to do and blame everyone but yourself.

You don't want torb one tricks? Don't invite them to your groups.

"But Deadman.... I wouldn't have anyone to blame for me losing and I wouldn't have anything to bitch about on the forums if I did that!". I am sure you will find something to bitch about.

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No no no no, you see... these guys want the team to form around their pick, they don't want to form a team around someone elses pick.

And this is not unique to Overwatch, where enforcing artificial or "ideal rules" upon random players who did not explicitly opt into them.
If you have expectations beyond an effort to win, then don't do something which will give you random players.

[DeadmanWalking]

And this is not unique to Overwatch, where enforcing artificial or "ideal rules" upon random players who did not explicitly opt into them.
If you have expectations beyond an effort to win, then don't do something which will give you random players.

It’s kind of idiotic that people who scream and yell that everyone should do X and should play Y and do everything they can to win refuse to do the one thing that will increase their chances of winning..... creating their own groups rather than using a random group button.

[Fluffyfluff]

It’s kind of idiotic that people who scream and yell that everyone should do X and should play Y and do everything they can to win refuse to do the one thing that will increase their chances of winning..... creating their own groups rather than using a random group button.

the cry-babies dont do it though because they are too lazy or have no friends

[Flutterguy]

I think these are more symptoms of a base problem in the game. Originally, Blizzard openly discouraged people from maining and tried to design the game around encouraging the switch to counter whatever your opponent was playing. However, the game itself actively discourages you from switching. You lose your ult charge and more influential than you think, switching heroes can really hurt your stats which influences your chance for PotG, getting medals, and getting cards. In addition, it can hurt your SR. So when someone says "Hey, can you switch?" in the middle of the match when it isn't a very cut and dry circumstance to switch, resistance is completely natural if not expected. You're asking that player to hurt their own performance in the hopes it can give you an edge for victory.

[Jessicka]

I think these are more symptoms of a base problem in the game. Originally, Blizzard openly discouraged people from maining and tried to design the game around encouraging the switch to counter whatever your opponent was playing. However, the game itself actively discourages you from switching. You lose your ult charge and more influential than you think, switching heroes can really hurt your stats which influences your chance for PotG, getting medals, and getting cards. In addition, it can hurt your SR. So when someone says "Hey, can you switch?" in the middle of the match when it isn't a very cut and dry circumstance to switch, resistance is completely natural if not expected. You're asking that player to hurt their own performance in the hopes it can give you an edge for victory.

When people ask someone else to switch, they seldom have good, if any, advice on who to switch to or why. I see it's usually one player, usually on a "meta" hero that's being countered/struggling that's the one demanding it too - they feel they're having a hard time, so everyone must be having a hard time; but can't see that maybe it's just them feeling the strain and maybe they're the one who would benefit from switching.

It's difficult to co-ordinate mid-match too, especially when switching roles comes up. I tend to find people are much, much more receptive to switching up between rounds where there's time for the discussion.

[DeadmanWalking]

I think these are more symptoms of a base problem in the game. Originally, Blizzard openly discouraged people from maining and tried to design the game around encouraging the switch to counter whatever your opponent was playing. However, the game itself actively discourages you from switching. You lose your ult charge and more influential than you think, switching heroes can really hurt your stats which influences your chance for PotG, getting medals, and getting cards. In addition, it can hurt your SR. So when someone says "Hey, can you switch?" in the middle of the match when it isn't a very cut and dry circumstance to switch, resistance is completely natural if not expected. You're asking that player to hurt their own performance in the hopes it can give you an edge for victory.

That might be because victory is the only result that ends in better SR. Performance only determines how much you gain in a win or lose in a loss. You can perform all you want and have all the gold medals but there will be no point where a loss get you higher SR.
I would rather win and get less positive SR than lose and get less negative SR. If you are focused on performance SR as opposed to victory SR you are doing it wrong.

[Deleted]

When people ask someone else to switch, they seldom have good, if any, advice on who to switch to or why. I see it's usually one player, usually on a "meta" hero that's being countered/struggling that's the one demanding it too - they feel they're having a hard time, so everyone must be having a hard time; but can't see that maybe it's just them feeling the strain and maybe they're the one who would benefit from switching.

It's difficult to co-ordinate mid-match too, especially when switching roles comes up. I tend to find people are much, much more receptive to switching up between rounds where there's time for the discussion.

So personally I never ask people to switch, i normally say something like " could anyone play xyz hero we are getting owned by abc hero" If none switch fine, i'll do my best to continue ( I play healers )

What annoys me the most is people that think because someone else isn't doing what they want they decide to throw. Had a game, with a torb main (also played widow but really was a ..2 trick?) anyways. one team mate insta picked orisa, this guy then picks torb. Instantly! the orisa moans we have a torb telling him to swap hero and that hes useless blah blah, bearing in mind we had not even picked the rest of our lineup. said he was throwing and went symm. proceeded to fuck around placing turrets in dumb places (like in our spawn exit) - we lost...

In my opinion, I'm not a fan of playing with one tricks, and i would rather they swap if its not working at least they are trying to win, they are probs better on that hero then anything else and thus will contribute more on a less useful pick then swapping to something totally new. But people that just throw/get tilted in the character select screen are MUCH worse. You have to accept people wont do what you want, and wont always get 2-2-2.

[Mask]

That might be because victory is the only result that ends in better SR. Performance only determines how much you gain in a win or lose in a loss. You can perform all you want and have all the gold medals but there will be no point where a loss get you higher SR.
I would rather win and get less positive SR than lose and get less negative SR. If you are focused on performance SR as opposed to victory SR you are doing it wrong.

At the point things are going bad enough that you need to switch heroes defeat is already very likely. It's the difference between 90% chance of defeat but you play a hero you're good at and pad stats (minor SR loss), or switching to have an 85% chance of defeat but playing a hero you aren't as good at so the game thinks the loss is your fault (huge SR loss). Performance based SR is detrimental to people playing to win. It promotes playing to pad stats. It is a horrible implementation of an ELO-like system.

Chess doesn't modify ELO results by some kind of performance metric. It's simply win or lose or draw and based on how much higher or lower your opponents ELO was to yours. Blizzard badly fucked up the ELO implementation for this game.

[baskev]

Everyone deserves a chance to play their "character". But if it's not working out and they are asked to switch, and they don't, they should be reported. This kind of behavior should be actively discouraged by blizz, but they don't right now.

yup my problem with it to.

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Positioning is everything.

Last night on Hollywood, end of the match 'Report Jessicka'. Moments later, PotG Jessicka as Widowmaker 'proceeds to clip of my clearing Point A of 4 enemies in attack and taking Point A'. Clearly the loss was *my* fault for picking Widowmaker at that stage, and nothing to do with the lamentable defence by players who got blown up by Pharah while I was tanking defence, because they wouldn't get behind my shield and left themselves totally exposed.

That's the kind of bullshit I see most days. The blame is automatically placed on a certain player for certain hero picks, when actually, the pivotal bad decisions are made by players on "good" heroes just being stupid.

Nope just nope.

We are not talking about 1 occasion misshaps here. 1 trick pony's are the ones who keep picking them after 10 of these things happen.
And yes allot of widows "wait" until they have epic penta team kills. But it might have taken them 4 matches or 90% of the first control points time. While it could be done in way less. Or maybe half the team needed to die and do stupid things to give you the room for the potg.
BUT AGAIN this is not against players who are really good. But widow is a fine example here. A hero with a high skill cap, that has little to no use against some hero's/map combo's. And is still picked by people who could not hit a reinhard if they where standing still infront of them. And refuse to change if they do not function.

I think you are trying to say: hey widow is not bad.
I am not going after widow. Widow is just a easy way to explain it.

But let me give you a other example : Genji
Against a team with a mei, winston, symmetra, moria he stands little change to be succesfull. All of them counter him hard.

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I agree with you. But it's still important to give the player a chance, because it is a game afterall. If there were limited number of switches, then I would so no to giving them a chance.

Yes and no. Sometimes you see 1 trick pony's you see their "win" rate's and you know how bad it is. I agree with the fact they should have a change. But its ranked , so 1 change. Not 6 min

[Jessicka]

yup my problem with it to.

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Nope just nope.

We are not talking about 1 occasion misshaps here. 1 trick pony's are the ones who keep picking them after 10 of these things happen.
And yes allot of widows "wait" until they have epic penta team kills. But it might have taken them 4 matches or 90% of the first control points time. While it could be done in way less. Or maybe half the team needed to die and do stupid things to give you the room for the potg.
BUT AGAIN this is not against players who are really good. But widow is a fine example here. A hero with a high skill cap, that has little to no use against some hero's/map combo's. And is still picked by people who could not hit a reinhard if they where standing still infront of them. And refuse to change if they do not function.

I think you are trying to say: hey widow is not bad.
I am not going after widow. Widow is just a easy way to explain it.

But let me give you a other example : Genji
Against a team with a mei, winston, symmetra, moria he stands little change to be succesfull. All of them counter him hard.

Except that it's easy to make every one of those heroes' lives significantly harder with Pharah, Widowmaker, Roadhog and Winston which would make Genji's life significantly easier. I play Widow, then Symmetra and Mei become very high priority targets for me because I know how hard they can make things close in. The counter-pick circle is just that.

But, you missed the point entirely. I got the blamed for the loss in picking Widow on attack, when in fact we lost because we got rolled on defence because of the way some of my team were over-extending and failing to use my shields as Orisa.

[baskev]

Except that it's easy to make every one of those heroes' lives significantly harder with Pharah, Widowmaker, Roadhog and Winston which would make Genji's life significantly easier. I play Widow, then Symmetra and Mei become very high priority targets for me because I know how hard they can make things close in. The counter-pick circle is just that.

But, you missed the point entirely. I got the blamed for the loss in picking Widow on attack, when in fact we lost because we got rolled on defence because of the way some of my team were over-extending and failing to use my shields as Orisa.

Again you are missing the point...this thread is not about if you personally are good or not on widow. This a thread about people who pick a certain hero, that makes the team loose allot. Who never changes. Not even if the whole enemy team is build against the hero. AKA 1 trick pony's.

And you miss my point...i take widow as easy example...Maybe the whole match you are talking about you where epic etc...but this thread post is not about you personally ( atleast i think it is not).

[Jessicka]

Again you are missing the point...this thread is not about if you personally are good or not on widow. This a thread about people who pick a certain hero, that makes the team loose allot. Who never changes. Not even if the whole enemy team is build against the hero. AKA 1 trick pony's.

And you miss my point...i take widow as easy example...Maybe the whole match you are talking about you where epic etc...but this thread post is not about you personally ( atleast i think it is not).

I'm pointing out that blaming an individual for their pick is very often deeply misguided in terms of isolating why a team lost. This whole thread and argument comes from the actions of a handful of Top 500 players with very strong win rates - their picks weren't responsible for losses, nor can it be argued that they were bad players.

[Fluffyfluff]

Overwatch needs to change its name to Blamewatch. That's all comp is nowdays pple bitching about picks, scapegoating and deciding who is sole responsible for a loss, pathetic.

[Ticksandstones]

Riot did it, expect something similar eventually.

I'd say Blizzard needs to lock a role for each player on the map. While, only letting them play that role for the rest of the game. Which mean if you get a tank. Guess what? You are only playing tanks, that match.

If it works in MOBAS it will work in Overwatch.

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I'm pointing out that blaming an individual for their pick is very often deeply misguided in terms of isolating why a team lost. This whole thread and argument comes from the actions of a handful of Top 500 players with very strong win rates - their picks weren't responsible for losses, nor can it be argued that they were bad players.

Good players don't let bad players dictate their win rate.

[Gandrake]

Riot did it, expect something similar eventually.

I'd say Blizzard needs to lock a role for each player on the map. While, only letting them play that role for the rest of the game. Which mean if you get a tank. Guess what? You are only playing tanks, that match.

Does League have the option to rejoin games? I don't think they do, but I just see something like that getting abused where players will leave the match and people will pick support/tank and then rejoin and then the support and tank will throw.

There are just so many goddamn damage heroes I don't think you should even be able to play competitive as DPS unless you have decent stat averages for your rank on at least 5 different damage heroes. At least that way we have players that can actually play DPS heroes playing them, because it is so rare for me to see very opportunistic and confident players playing these heroes.

Most of them are completely useless - I shouldn't be averaging 5 eliminations a minute on 1700 damage/min and losing games. That is ludicrous, but the cause of defeat that can be laid at the feet of every single shitty wannabe DPS main out there.

But even then, you have to think that it won't change the fact that the feedback Blizzard is recieving from these players that Tanks and Supports are just simply less fun to play. Just because I would play support for players who are competent damage dealers does not mean they would do the same for others.

[Endus]

I've thought for a while that, if the population numbers are high enough, it might help if there was a voluntary "Team Player" agreement you could digitally sign off on. If you sign off on it, you get queued with others who've signed it. If not, you get queued with those who AREN'T signed up to it. This splits the queue, which is why I said "if the population numbers are high enough"; I'd be okay with waiting a little longer for "good" games, but not TOO long.

The basic (proposed) kind of code of behaviour you're agreeing to:

1> I will play what the team needs, over my personal preference, if I cannot do both at once.
2> I will be friendly and constructive in both team and voice chat.
3> I will cooperate with team strategy, even if I disagree with it (and will suggest a change IF it fails).
4> I will be the change that the team needs, rather than insisting someone else do it.
5> I will remember that we're here to have fun, and remember that losses happen.

If you've signed off on this, any breach of the game's basic code of conduct that results in an account penalty (silence/ban/whatever) automatically removes you from this system, to the "regular" queue. Breaching the code of conduct above can result in the same, but no other penalty would occur. If removed, you will not be able to sign up for this system again until the next season. Being removed a second time will permanently bar you from the "Team Player" queue. Groups can be formed from people of both queues without penalty, but you queue in the "default" queue if any team member belongs to that queue, and only the "Team Player" queue if ALL group members are signed on and still qualify. Said queue only exists in Comp, not brawls or QP or whatever, which aren't affected.

While I agree it's an issue, trying to force better behaviour out of players is just going to give these people something else to fight against, and annoy everyone who wasn't contributing to the problem. Something like the above doesn't actively punish anyone, but it allows you to clean up a "friendly, teamwork-focused" queue group for those who want that and will play fair within that.

It ALSO means the super-salty guys who yell at teammates to "get off Zen and play Mercy, we need more healing, dickwad" will ALSO get kicked out of the "team player" queue. Since that's honestly not much better.

[Jessicka]

Pretty good tonight, most games pretty balanced. Just the one bad one where I'm tanking against a Widow and Hanzo, and my team just won't use my shields... Got a new season high, 2438, but dropped a little back to 2399.

Also this happened. https://plays.tv/video/5a2482d140d34...quintuple-kill

[Gandrake]

The basic (proposed) kind of code of behaviour you're agreeing to:

1> I will play what the team needs, over my personal preference, if I cannot do both at once.
2> I will be friendly and constructive in both team and voice chat.
3> I will cooperate with team strategy, even if I disagree with it (and will suggest a change IF it fails).
4> I will be the change that the team needs, rather than insisting someone else do it.
5> I will remember that we're here to have fun, and remember that losses happen.

Then people are going to start asking Blizzard to ban everyone who has SSDs or can click a hero faster than them lol

The overwhelming feedback of this game's community is that damage heroes are more fun to play. You can sign off on whatever you'd like, but eventually people are going to get tired of not being able to play the heroes they want to play and they'll stop wanting to play competitive because to them it's competitive but you can only play Lucio. It's just tiptoeing around the problem.

We really have to nip this "DPS main" problem in it's bud and get all the people who cannot contribute out of Competitive Play.

[Jessicka]

Then people are going to start asking Blizzard to ban everyone who has SSDs or can click a hero faster than them lol

Basically sums up the community, they think banning everyone will get them to GM.