Vanilla Haters: "keep the game as buggy as possible" 'Its not Vanilla if.."

[Charge me Doctor]

"You asked for Vanilla thats what your getting" , clearly Im asking for more

So, first it was "i want vanilla", now it's "i want more than vanilla"? There is retail for you then

[Deleted]

I thought the issues were retailers trying to make it less like vanilla, now its the retailers trying to make it too much like vanilla?

[Charge me Doctor]

I'm a purist and I want to play vanilla like I did back then. That includes laughing at people who think they will be allowed to play ret in end game content. That includes struggling to buy bags + skills + mount.

Only things I would be fine with is bug fixing cuz getting stuck in looting position for 10 minutes was not a design idea, it was just a bug.
Bad specs were design ideas, not bugs.

This includes getting only course stones out of copper nodes because some asshole thought "hey i don't need this shit in my limited bags" and just left it in there and it didn't despawn. Fun times

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You do realize you sound like a butt hurt anti-classic protester that lost the "there will never be classic wow servers" argument and are now trying to make having classic servers as painful as possible, right? Just thought I'd point that out.

The fact that this discussion even exist only proves that "there will never be classic wow servers". There will be something like classic, but with changes that make it no longer classic. Just like private servers are not classic wow. Classic wow is gone, now you can only emulate it's glory, but it will never be the same.

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Both don't need fixing. You were able to play both in classic in Raids. What you guys seem to forget is that classic was so easy that you could clear most of the content with 15 people carrying 25 through. If anyone of the 25 wants to play Ret - go along, they don't matter.

Or. You could boot out this "ret paladin", get a rogue from other guild instead and do naxx instead of being stuck in BWL. Fucking ret DPS in vanilla.

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Shamans had Bloodlust.

Correction, Ogres had bloodlust

[Sorcath]

blah blah blah, i'm confused

Literally the target demographic IS the people who play vanilla for this experience. YOU aren't the target. YOU are pretty much the opposite of that demographic.

But I guess you had your soap box. Time to bugger off

[Charge me Doctor]

And a non-trivial portion of you want Classic to be free or included with retail.

You wanted Classic because it was the game as it launched. You're all hypocrites if you now want to change it with your favorite features.

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I'm not. Not because I didn't want people to have it but because of the precedent it sets and the whining. People lobby for Classic... they GET CLASSIC. Suddenly it's not good enough and they want classic but with better spec balancing, this feature, that feature. Catering to people like this never works... it's the classic "give them an inch and they'll take a mile" syndrome.

The precedent it's set is this - they're now saying that they have no plans to do a TBC server. But they have zero credibility on that. Of course they will. And a LK server.They can deny all they want, but they said for years that they weren't doing Classic (google "wall of no") and here we are. All they've done by deciding to do this is remove the last bit of credibility that they have whenever they assert that they won't do X

The problem here is that some players expect blizzard simply to boot a mangos emulator with blizzard-made/approved DB and scripts, which is never going to happen. That's where wall of no came from - they are not doing classic servers in the way private server community wanted them to do (aka, make a "blizzard private server"), if they were going to do so - they are going to remake it almost from a scratch, which is happening and that's why they are gathering feedback, because they are going to make changes and need to decide what changes. Current discussion on leaving bugs in or patching them out is just ridiculous (especially coming from people who played 1.12 balance on 1.4 content, fucking lol), it's obvious that classic servers are not going to be exact experience of vanilla wow, it's going to be something close (closer than private servers i would assume), but not the same. So, why not make these QoL and bug fixing changes? But delusional people who think they are going to get vanilla wow are going to be disappointed - they are going to get classic wow experience, which can mean whatever the fuck blizzard wants.

People been asking for classic, blizzard said "you think you want it, but you don't", people kept complaining, blizzard said "we are going to deliver you something similar to classic wow", people yell "we are getting classic wow! yay we won!". But they don't realize that blizzard were right and they don't want classic wow, they want modified, fixed version of classic wow, which blizzard is going to deliver. That's the fucking case

[Linkedblade]

People need to realize you're getting World of Warcraft: Classic. You are not getting Vanilla. There is absolutely no way that Blizzard would or could re-release the exact same game that existed in 2004-2007. It's going to be a similar experience, but it WILL be polished and have necessary changes made.

[Charge me Doctor]

I don't think classic servers are meant to be dealt in absolutes. There are thousands of grays there.

Is this an item quality joke?

Yeah, i don't believe that blizzard is going re-create all the bugs the game had back then, because most of them were there thanks to certain ways of coding, then they fixed that, now they need to learn how to break it again? That's simply retarded. I don't see how stuff like collision problems (wall jumping, blink/fear/charge/sheep clipping), proc problems (when you get certain proc and everything you have also procs), mounting up/food interrupted by ticking dot damage from a dead NPC, stealth related bugs ("hand in the air" one, getting kicked out of stealth right after you vanish), pet related bugs (pets clipping through textures, attacking you but you not being able to target it, pet abandoning your hunter while having a "green" indicator), etc.

[Deleted]

I guess it has something to do with the fact that the vanilla crowd has been going on for 10+ years about how every single aspect of vanilla was better and more difficult that scrubshit retail. So people want a toxic community to get every single aspect.

[gaymer77]

So, why not make these QoL and bug fixing changes?

Bugs will be fixed but if you think they are going to fix QoL issues, you're sadly mistaken. Blizzard has already stated directly that people should expect ZERO QoL changes. Basically they're saying that if you're a hunter you have to use arrows/bullets that are inside your ammo pouch/quiver, if you're a rogue you have to level up poisons and put them on mid-fight as they have charges, ret pallies will still be a joke and not see Naxx as ret, all tanks will be warriors, there were be class quests for stuff like Redemption for paladins etc etc etc (seriously how many prot & ret pallies did you know in vanilla that could res?), druids only get a combat res and it'll require the correct reagents to cast, all classes that can buff will have to carry around reagents to do so, and so on and so on.

As far as the "vanilla WoW experience", I hope they keep things exactly how it was back then. That's what people asked for. THAT is what's going to bring back subscribers that want to replay vanilla who were playing on private servers. Its typically the assholes who never even played vanilla but only heard stories about it that want all these changes. Well those and the people who played specs like ret that didn't get to see much progression during vanilla because another class could do that role better with a better designed spec. I don't plan on spending a lot of time on the vanilla servers because I've been there & done that. I'd rather progress in the current game than play a game through beer googles and reminisce about "the good ol days".

[mich4el]

You cant change the game without affecting the community this is why there are purists they understand that
even blizzard don't know what exactly in vanilla make the community into a community

[Charge me Doctor]

Bugs will be fixed but if you think they are going to fix QoL issues, you're sadly mistaken. Blizzard has already stated directly that people should expect ZERO QoL changes. Basically they're saying that if you're a hunter you have to use arrows/bullets that are inside your ammo pouch/quiver, if you're a rogue you have to level up poisons and put them on mid-fight as they have charges, ret pallies will still be a joke and not see Naxx as ret, all tanks will be warriors, there were be class quests for stuff like Redemption for paladins etc etc etc (seriously how many prot & ret pallies did you know in vanilla that could res?), druids only get a combat res and it'll require the correct reagents to cast, all classes that can buff will have to carry around reagents to do so, and so on and so on.

As far as the "vanilla WoW experience", I hope they keep things exactly how it was back then. That's what people asked for. THAT is what's going to bring back subscribers that want to replay vanilla who were playing on private servers. Its typically the assholes who never even played vanilla but only heard stories about it that want all these changes. Well those and the people who played specs like ret that didn't get to see much progression during vanilla because another class could do that role better with a better designed spec. I don't plan on spending a lot of time on the vanilla servers because I've been there & done that. I'd rather progress in the current game than play a game through beer googles and reminisce about "the good ol days".

I'll repeat two things i've already told numerous times - how many crafting items should go into a stack? 5 or 20? Because that's a QoL change that happened during vanilla. People have been crying for blizzard to do that, and they "caved in for casuals" or whatever the right buzzword to use there.
Now what about linked auction houses? It is also a QoL change that happened during vanilla, because of players complaining. Now do we revert that too?
And now people cry for different kind of QoL changes, some of them are reasonable, do blizzard ignore them? Or apply their old approach they used back in classic wow towards such changes?

Ability to jump off a gryphon on next stop, maps in dungeons, availability of new models/animations - these and many more are legit options blizzard has to consider of implementing

[gaymer77]

I'll repeat two things i've already told numerous times - how many crafting items should go into a stack? 5 or 20? Because that's a QoL change that happened during vanilla. People have been crying for blizzard to do that, and they "caved in for casuals" or whatever the right buzzword to use there.
Now what about linked auction houses? It is also a QoL change that happened during vanilla, because of players complaining. Now do we revert that too?
And now people cry for different kind of QoL changes, some of them are reasonable, do blizzard ignore them? Or apply their old approach they used back in classic wow towards such changes?

Ability to jump off a gryphon on next stop, maps in dungeons, availability of new models/animations - these and many more are legit options blizzard has to consider of implementing

Key words in your post are "happened in vanilla" meaning those sort of things will be included in Classic WoW at one point or another unassumingly. The ability to "jump off the gryphon on the next stop" has ALWAYS been something you could do in the game. It just meant that you had to log out of the game "esc > logout" to do it. New character models & animations are out of the question. Those are NOT vanilla things. If you want new models or animations, stick to live. QoL issues that people have been demanding of Blizzard are making all specs viable, no reagents, no ammo, give paladins a taunt, some sort of dungeon finder, achievements, and give druids an out of combat res among other things. Those are NOT vanilla WoW. If you want those, stick to live.

[Charge me Doctor]

WoW is software and every (proper) software has 'version control system'. They would rather revert to old version and make a new development branch out of it. There is no need to re-create anything when it already exists in the past versions. Bi

And no, that was not 'item quality joke'. Some of 'purist' people (even though I hesitate to use that word because it sounds you belong to a sect) say that there is no place for people who want a tiny bit of changes to vanilla. So no one can make this 'pure vanila or gtfo' situation. That is what I meant.

And even with version control, projects as big as wow can get lost. And storing each and every build into version control is not productive, especially for 10+ years straight. Do you think hart communication foundation still have access to their very first software they've made 25 years ago? (tip: they don't) Even for its lightweight ~15Mb program it doesn't make sense to keep stuff in their version control that they no longer support and which is critically obsolete and doesn't work with their new hardware

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Key words in your post are "happened in vanilla" meaning those sort of things will be included in Classic WoW at one point or another unassumingly.

And question still stands, which vanilla is vanilla? Closest to release? Closest to TBC? The one majority of people spent more time on? Private server one? Which is it?

The ability to "jump off the gryphon on the next stop" has ALWAYS been something you could do in the game. It just meant that you had to log out of the game "esc > logout" to do it.

That's not "an ability" that's a handicap for players. Which often left you stay afloat on your gryphon to the next weekly reset or earlier if you were lucky

New character models & animations are out of the question.

Why do you care? You won't even see them if you don't want to. It's a question of simple toggle.

Those are NOT vanilla things.

These things are made with vanilla mission (mindset, "something we would do in vanilla if we were capable to do") in mind. Blizzard would update animations and models if they needed to (and they did swap around gear models and NPC models in vanilla), blizzard would add a functional to dismount you when you press a button, instead of making an addon to do that, blizzard would further increase amount of items in a stack when they would feel that it's appropriate. You get that? These are QoL changes, these could be implemented in vanilla, but what you are talking below:

If you want new models or animations, stick to live. QoL issues that people have been demanding of Blizzard are making all specs viable, no reagents, no ammo, give paladins a taunt, some sort of dungeon finder, achievements, and give druids an out of combat res among other things. Those are NOT vanilla WoW. If you want those, stick to live.

are gameplay changes, it's not QoL, its changes to gameplay, you are simply making a strawman to fight

[gaymer77]

are gameplay changes, it's not QoL, its changes to gameplay, you are simply making a strawman to fight

Those are ALL things people have been asking for in the Classic release.....

[Charge me Doctor]

Those are ALL things people have been asking for in the Classic release.....

maybe it's my memory playing tricks with me, but i don't remember these things in an official poll

[gaymer77]

Whether or not they were on an official poll or not, that's what the WOW forums and these forums have been flooded with asking for.

[inert]

So tired of seeing comments from Vanilla haters telling a community of a game they arent going to play, how to play it. There are Vanilla purists and we can understand why and there are people who want to remaster the game without touching the actual gameplay of grinds, social communities and so on. No body misses Vanilla WoW for its bugs/exploits, the specs with really bad balance, and so on. "If you change that then its not Vanilla" " you guys think you do but you dont, its not vanilla anymore if you do that" "if you want that then play retail"

Call it French Vanilla if you want but stop being dumb lol its a totally different game than retail and the changes people want to make to Vanilla do not make it retail nor take the fun or essence of what made Vanilla wow what it is. Look how well Pokemon was able to take its classic games and remake them while keeping the spirit of the game intact. Pokemon remakes go overboard by introducing new mechanics from new Pokemon games which is not what people are asking for, moreso the aesthetic appeal and small qol changes like picking loot up automatically.

If you arent going to play vanilla, dont give your opinion about it because it doesnt affect you and no ones cares. Imagine someone ordering a food you dont like the taste of and telling them how to enjoy it, what toppings to put on it, how to cook it. fuck off please. You have your own version of Wow to worry about and now is the best time to try and get your flying mounts at lvl 1, destroy factions, remove leveling, and have WOD with mythic+ a thing

"You asked for Vanilla thats what your getting" , clearly Im asking for more

Excuse me, but I fully intend to relive the experience I had as a teenager and don't want people like you to ruin that. If you want vanilla with sprinkles, start up your own private server where you can add all the diabetes-inducing toppings you want. God knows people that actually want to play vanilla have been slumming it on private servers all these years. You can do it too without ruining anyone else's good time.

[ComputerNerd]

what is the problem in just fixing bugs without changing anything ? dont get why there is even a discussion about it. just fix the bugs and bring vanilla as it is.

at maximum just slightly balance raw dps/hps output numbers, via spell values in DB, without changing stuff/classes/mechanics/spells. there is zero problem in that. only to prevent some outliers like feral or sp are not totally useless. there is exactly 0 problem with that, bc its not to make all perfect balanced, nor to change classes in any way. its just to calm down the outliers a bit.

after that, stop. and deliver classic at what it is: classic.

Outliers defined the raid rosters, as in being excluded from them typically,
Fixing them changes the encounters fundamentally.

What we are "told" are small changes often aren't.
And that is a case where it absolutely isn't.

"exactly 0 problem" isn't even an argument with any evidence, it is a blanket dismissal of any opposing view and therefore a complete lie.
Explain why something isn't a problem, instead of simply saying it isn't.

I was not in favour of classic, but it should be what we were told was the superior experience of WoW, accurate reproduction of vanilla at least for the client.
The rest of the experience, the community will be down to players to create, as they did the first time.
And that is going to be harder than it seems, because it was a combination of multiple conditions which don't exist now, and never will again.

[Charge me Doctor]

That's weird. I thought that I finished my sentence there. I said "even if they revert it, they would still have to work on it". But never mind that now. Lets say there is a rise to bring up "old feature" into new expansion but they have to tweak it. How do they do it? As far as I am know, Blizzard never says "never again" and they surely won't scratch their heads and go "Oh well, we deleted that". It's not a choice to keep stuff in version control. It's just that is how it works. You can go back far as initial commits.

Hart Communicaiton Foundation do not have to keep their very first software if they completely changed hardware which software doesn't support anymore. Or, if direction of company changed to completely another direction. Is that identical case for Blizzard and video game considering that Blizzards software supports PCs and HCF is entirely something else?

Well, i don't have any inside information about blizzard and how they do their software/hardware interactions for their servers and databases, but there is a wild guess that blizzard did at some point made a significant change to their server/db structure, that incompatible with old software and they have to re-implement it, which may or may not unintentionally (or will give blizzard opportunity to do so intentionally) fix bugs that they weren't able to fix, or make changes to obviously flawed systems (say, professions taking mats from your bank and your inventory, instead of just from your bags).

Say, if i wanted to run a test script that used to work on old test station, grabbed its old version, and try to run it on new test station - it simply won't work because it doesn't know how to work with new, say, commutator - now i need to rewrite the code for old test script, cut every mention of old commutator, write new rules for new interface for new commutator and still rewrite half of the script because new commutators simply works differently (or while writing interface i'll have to constantly run through old script coding to make sure that i don't miss any piece of obsolete reference that only slows down execution because new hardware doesn't need these references, for example, old commutator had to receive a direct command (which also has to be implemented first) to disconnect certain connections before making new one, while new commutator doesn't need to do that due to how its constructed)

On version control stuff - when we moved to a new version control program, i personally didn't had to do anything with this merge, but we've encountered several issues after that and i had to listen to a lot of "it's impossible to recover X version of these scripts for software test stations, because they weren't able to merge properly into new system" from the team who did the merge. Mostly it was the case of discontinued stuff and we had really weird branches like 1.38.11 missing, but 1.39.1 and 1.38.1 available of the very same project

[Wildmoon]

While I think it's kinda pointless to mess with classic wow people when you clearly have no interest in it in the first place, it's understandable that some people just can't resist the urge to call out on the hypocrisy.