Is Firearms Ownership in the US becoming a Cult?

[Grapemask]

Simple answer to the topic:

No, it's not becoming a cult. It's been one for 50 years. People are willing to die for their right to have a gun but not for any other right they possess. They're willing to lose their freedom of expression, but if you might touch that gun, they will go to war. That is not normal behavior. That is insane.

Next topic.

[Dystemper]

I think it's clear the Europeans have been made into hoplophobes because Thier Governments fear them due the people's histories of overthrowing them and revolting. The people here who are afraid of them have been taught they should fear them and anyone who had them. It makes ruling over you easier when the population is submissive and afraid to take up arms. Keep them docile and afraid and they can pretty much do what they want to you. If anything the anti gun groups are more of a cult.

[A dot Ham]

Do you really read that poorly, or is this just part of your posing? I laid out factors that I find to be similar to cult behavior. I then asked a question, clearly posted at the end: "Are enough of the factors there that at some point fear will cross the line into cult behavior?" Nothing clickbait about it. I was also reasonably clean in the thread title to ask if it was becoming a cult, I did not state that it has reached that point yet.

So lets recap. I'm going to make the list and the correlations for you, since you are purposely vague as to what qualifies a group as a cult, and how gun owners fit that build. I can't tell if this is because English is a second language, or if you're just terrible at communicating. But I'll do my best to make sense of this asinine post.
Once again for reference: http://csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm

(1) Charismatic leaders

There are actually quite a few points on your checklist that refer to leaders. None of which reference charismatic personality as a potential sign of a cult following. You don't name anyone specifically but list the NRA and its body of leadership as the "head" of this cult. I doubt most gun owners know the names or anything else about the leaders of the NRA, despite sharing similar ideals regarding ownership.

(2) Ever present threat

This actually isn't even addressed in your list. This is essentially the cause, the message. Most groups have some sort of mission statement or vision. Furthermore, not all gun owners, actually own guns because of some threat. There are some that own them purely for recreation.

(3) "The faithful speak a particular way"

This is a stretch but I am going to assume this is number 1 from your check list: "The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to [the] belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law."

There are several issues with this correlation. First, the backbone of this ideology (the constitution) is ACTUAL law... it is THE law for Americans. Second one can be zealous and protective of that constitution (particularly the 2nd Amendment) for no other reason than the protection of the Constitution in it's entirety, more specifically protecting one for the sake of the others. I myself don't own any firearms, and am still "unquestionably committed" to the protection of the things that document stands for.

(4) There is disloyal speech

This loosely falls under this one: "Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished." I also feel like this point needs some support. Of course people having differing views on gun ownership and the legality of it. But how exactly does the NRA or this "cult of gun owners" even go about enforcing that?

You don't make a very good case for gun owners being a cult, or even moving that direction. You make shaky claims about very specific stereotypical gun owners. That isn't a cult.

As far as your pleas to not make this thread about gun control... it totally is. Its a click bait titled thread about gun control.

[Deleted]

I think it's clear the Europeans have been made into hoplophobes because Thier Governments fear them due the people's histories of overthrowing them and revolting. The people here who are afraid of them have been taught they should fear them and anyone who had them. It makes ruling over you easier when the population is submissive and afraid to take up arms. Keep them docile and afraid and they can pretty much do what they want to you. If anything the anti gun groups are more of a cult.

Do you realise how silly you're beginning to look?

[Dystemper]

Do you realise how silly you're beginning to look?

Not at all, it is very plausible. Are you telling me then Governments are above such things?

[Saucexorzski]

There are but you were using the word predatory to justify gun ownership not me. I was just illustrating that a society can and does exist without access to guns for the general public where the 'predatory' element has not caused anarchy to reign supreme.

What you said illustrates the op's point, your reasoning for guns having a place in society because of the 'bad, aggressive, predatory people is nonsense. It's conspiratorial and cultish to assume that society is too dangerous to function without access to lethal weaponry.

I guess you dont think assault is predatory or rape, or theft. Must be nice to be so naive.

- - - Updated - - -

FFS

I never said remove gun >.>

sure you didnt, that what they all say, then they try to add laws to remove guns.

[Spookysheep]

"Cult" implies a small number of people. Over 1/3 of the U.S. population owns guns, so it is more like a pandemic

[Easo]

Nope do not see it as a problem, because as a individual I want the right to defend myself with a firearm. Same as I want the right to use a vehicle to travel with. Risks? Of course. But I rather take the very low risk of being harmed by one, then the low risk of being caught without one. And myself being more likely to be shot here in the US than say England, is even more of reason I want to have one. But being in England does not guarantee someone can not stab you or who is much stronger than you are. Or how gangs can. Reality does exist.

Why do you even have the need to defend yourself with a gun? The very low risk is actually in UK, not US. So yeah, you are more likely to be shot in the USA than UK. Read - risk is bigger in USA, yet you want to choose it.
And its so sad that you do not see the obvious circle of buying guns to defend from guns and to what it leads.

[Ghostpanther]

So lets recap. I'm going to make the list and the correlations for you, since you are purposely vague as to what qualifies a group as a cult, and how gun owners fit that build. I can't tell if this is because English is a second language, or if you're just terrible at communicating. But I'll do my best to make sense of this asinine post.
Once again for reference: http://csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm

There are actually quite a few points on your checklist that refer to leaders. None of which reference charismatic personality as a potential sign of a cult following. You don't name anyone specifically but list the NRA and its body of leadership as the "head" of this cult. I doubt most gun owners know the names or anything else about the leaders of the NRA, despite sharing similar ideals regarding ownership.

This actually isn't even addressed in your list. This is essentially the cause, the message. Most groups have some sort of mission statement or vision. Furthermore, not all gun owners, actually own guns because of some threat. There are some that own them purely for recreation.

This is a stretch but I am going to assume this is number 1 from your check list: "The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to [the] belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law."

There are several issues with this correlation. First, the backbone of this ideology (the constitution) is ACTUAL law... it is THE law for Americans. Second one can be zealous and protective of that constitution (particularly the 2nd Amendment) for no other reason than the protection of the Constitution in it's entirety, more specifically protecting one for the sake of the others. I myself don't own any firearms, and am still "unquestionably committed" to the protection of the things that document stands for.

This loosely falls under this one: "Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished." I also feel like this point needs some support. Of course people having differing views on gun ownership and the legality of it. But how exactly does the NRA or this "cult of gun owners" even go about enforcing that?

You don't make a very good case for gun owners being a cult, or even moving that direction. You make shaky claims about very specific stereotypical gun owners. That isn't a cult.

As far as your pleas to not make this thread about gun control... it totally is. Its a click bait titled thread about gun control.

Some good points.

I for one did not resort to correcting his grammar, as he did my misspelling, because that would make me a ass. I know what he means and really, that is all that matters.

The only NRA official I have paid much attention to or remember is the hot looking spokesperson chick.

The title of the thread itself, yells for more gun control and anti-second amendment action. And his remarks enforce those.

[shadowmouse]

@A dot Ham Stop with the passive aggressive pseudo erudition. The only people who seem to want this to be a gun control thread are a handful of people who can't hold a civil discussion and insist on asserting anyone who doesn't drink the Kool-aid with them wants to take their guns. Backtrack the discussion @adam86shadow is in for an example.

Scientology is often described as a cult. L. Ron Hubbard is dead, but people keep things running. The Mormons were, in their day, considered a cult. Again, there are people that keep it running. In the case of the NRA, one poster made a case for Halon Carter being instrumental in shifting the NRA's focus. Here's an article: https://timeline.com/harlon-carter-n...r-2f8227f2434f

That list is hardly the only set of factors out there and it doesn't claim to be exhaustive, I chose to use it because it was less tied to religion. Another list notes explicitly:

Finally, some cults use fear and intimidation to keep members in line. Members may be told that something awful will happen to them should they choose to leave the group.

Source: http://andynaselli.com/sociological-...stics-of-cults

The list you've used merely makes the broader statement:

Concerted efforts at influence and control lie at the core of cultic groups, programs, and relationships.

Fear is a tool for control. As this thread has progressed, I feel like there are two fears in play here. First, join us, there are bad things out there and you need guns. Second, the others don't believe, they want to take your guns and leave you vulnerable.

As for loyal and disloyal speech, that also appears in various formulations. I made a couple of preliminary observations for discussion, and never claimed to be defining cults or saying that things had reached cult status yet. Discussion, that's something rational people do, you might try it sometime.

I will note that I find comments such as this:

sure you didnt, that what they all say, then they try to add laws to remove guns.

to fall within the scope of:

The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

Source: http://csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm

It also demonstrates that second fear factor in play.

I for one did not resort to correcting his grammar, as he did my misspelling

Be my guest, I regularly edit when I catch mistakes. Do note, however, that American English doesn't have Standard Received, and at this time I'm working on projects that have me switching between American and British English.

[Ghostpanther]

Be my guest, I regularly edit when I catch mistakes. Do note, however, that American English doesn't have Standard Received, and at this time I'm working on projects that have me switching between American and British English.

Like I said dude, I do not have any issues with your communications skills. I know what you mean and could not care less if it is proper or spelled right.

[Theinquisition]

Simple answer to the topic:

No, it's not becoming a cult. It's been one for 50 years. People are willing to die for their right to have a gun but not for any other right they possess. They're willing to lose their freedom of expression, but if you might touch that gun, they will go to war. That is not normal behavior. That is insane.

Next topic.

Well, up until recently with the far left, freedom of speech hasn't been under a real threat.

[shadowmouse]

Like I said dude, I do not have any issues with your communications skills. I know what you mean and could not care less if it is proper or spelled right.

Well, catch him up on whether I'm a Chinese girl and let's go back to throwing poop at each other as proper primates should. He'll listen to you, you're obviously a panther.

[Ghostpanther]

Well, catch him up on whether I'm a Chinese girl and let's go back to throwing poop at each other as proper primates should. He'll listen to you, you're obviously a panther.

Lol! huh? Now with this statement I am not sure what you mean. But that is ok. Not important.

[A dot Ham]

Some good points.

I for one did not resort to correcting his grammar, as he did my misspelling, because that would make me a ass. I know what he means and really, that is all that matters.

The only NRA official I have paid much attention to or remember is the hot looking spokesperson chick.

The title of the thread itself, yells for more gun control and anti-second amendment action. And his remarks enforce those.

I didn't actually go there initially. He said he was American, and whether this google translated or not, I too understood him. I just didn't think (given the title) the points drawing him to the conclusion that gun owners could be a cult, or moving that way... weren't overly strong. He then slapped me with a list that didn't really even support the claims he was making.

I gave him an opportunity to clarify or strengthen the points he was trying to make (this is a discussion board) he isn't defending a thesis. Still clarification and strengthening those points (or adding to it) would have kept the conversation about whether or not the NRA, gun owners, or both are in fact, or behave like, a cult.

I am not a gun owner, nor am I a member of the NRA. So I take no offense to them being called a cult. At this point though, I remain unconvinced that is in fact what they are, or if that is even the correct application of the definition/characteristics.

[Saucexorzski]

@A dot Ham Stop with the passive aggressive pseudo erudition. The only people who seem to want this to be a gun control thread are a handful of people who can't hold a civil discussion and insist on asserting anyone who doesn't drink the Kool-aid with them wants to take their guns. Backtrack the discussion @adam86shadow is in for an example.

Scientology is often described as a cult. L. Ron Hubbard is dead, but people keep things running. The Mormons were, in their day, considered a cult. Again, there are people that keep it running. In the case of the NRA, one poster made a case for Halon Carter being instrumental in shifting the NRA's focus. Here's an article: https://timeline.com/harlon-carter-n...r-2f8227f2434f

That list is hardly the only set of factors out there and it doesn't claim to be exhaustive, I chose to use it because it was less tied to religion. Another list notes explicitly:

Source: http://andynaselli.com/sociological-...stics-of-cults

The list you've used merely makes the broader statement:


Fear is a tool for control. As this thread has progressed, I feel like there are two fears in play here. First, join us, there are bad things out there and you need guns. Second, the others don't believe, they want to take your guns and leave you vulnerable.

As for loyal and disloyal speech, that also appears in various formulations. I made a couple of preliminary observations for discussion, and never claimed to be defining cults or saying that things had reached cult status yet. Discussion, that's something rational people do, you might try it sometime.

I will note that I find comments such as this:


to fall within the scope of:

Source: http://csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm

It also demonstrates that second fear factor in play.


Be my guest, I regularly edit when I catch mistakes. Do note, however, that American English doesn't have Standard Received, and at this time I'm working on projects that have me switching between American and British English.

It really demonstrates recognition of a pattern of behavior that has been playing out in the US for years now, nothing more nothing less. Your choice to use that statement of all i've posted just goes to show you care very little about my views on the matter aside from how you can twist them to better aide you in your crusade.

[Auxora]

I agree with others that the term cult really doesn't apply. Most gun owners feel vehemently strongly in favor of gun rights, but just feeling strongly about something isn't applicable to the term cult. More accurate terms for some people that take it to the extreme might be obsessive or single-minded. There are lots of topics that people feel strongly about but that doesn't make them a cult (being vegetarian, abortion, etc).

I also wouldn't say most gun owners are living in old unprotected homes. It's quite a bit different in China where most people live in flats and all you have to secure is a flat door, as opposed to the US where most people have homes with multiple doors and many ground level windows. Additionally there aren't already 170M+ guns on the streets in China like in the US, and the penalties for crime in China are a whole lot more severe which also discourages crime. Introduce a gun per person in China to be legally owned, put them all in US-type houses, and reduce the penalties for crime there, and you'd probably have a very similar situation where a lot of people want to protect themselves.

[A dot Ham]

@A dot Ham Stop with the passive aggressive pseudo erudition. The only people who seem to want this to be a gun control thread are a handful of people who can't hold a civil discussion and insist on asserting anyone who doesn't drink the Kool-aid with them wants to take their guns. Backtrack the discussion @adam86shadow is in for an example.

Scientology is often described as a cult. L. Ron Hubbard is dead, but people keep things running. The Mormons were, in their day, considered a cult. Again, there are people that keep it running. In the case of the NRA, one poster made a case for Halon Carter being instrumental in shifting the NRA's focus. Here's an article: https://timeline.com/harlon-carter-n...r-2f8227f2434f

That list is hardly the only set of factors out there and it doesn't claim to be exhaustive, I chose to use it because it was less tied to religion. Another list notes explicitly:

Source: http://andynaselli.com/sociological-...stics-of-cults

The list you've used merely makes the broader statement:


Fear is a tool for control. As this thread has progressed, I feel like there are two fears in play here. First, join us, there are bad things out there and you need guns. Second, the others don't believe, they want to take your guns and leave you vulnerable.

As for loyal and disloyal speech, that also appears in various formulations. I made a couple of preliminary observations for discussion, and never claimed to be defining cults or saying that things had reached cult status yet. Discussion, that's something rational people do, you might try it sometime.

I will note that I find comments such as this:


to fall within the scope of:

Source: http://csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm

It also demonstrates that second fear factor in play.

I doubt there are any Scientologists that can't name L. Ron Hubbard as the founder.

I also doubt there are any Mormons that can't recognize the name of Joseph Smith.

I would find it hard to believe that the vast majority of gun owners or NRA members could name "Halon Carter", NRA founding members, or any current influential leaders in that arena. Which is a significant distinction you are purposely glossing over.

Next, your use (or cult use) of "fear" is vastly different.

External fear, vs fear imposed by the group(cult) upon members. Using fear tactics to control said members.

Cults use fear as a method of control. Fear of financial stability, fear of being ostracized by friends and family. Etc. These are direct and specific actions taken against members (or would be objectors/dissentors) to keep them "in line" or controlled.

A real or perceived threat that causes SOME people to join this group (simply by buying a gun *because "gun owner" is an unofficial group*) is not the same "fear tactic".

If you're going to throw around indirect calls for "rationality" you may want to start by being intellectually honest.

[shadowmouse]

It really demonstrates recognition of a pattern of behavior that has been playing out in the US for years now

Then you might want to contemplate -- how effective is the communication going to be if the British guy starts forcing your words into his ideas about Brexit? You're kind of missing the point when you try to paste those ideas from American politics into an international discussion. You originally directed your remarks at a guy from the UK, now you want somebody who hasn't lived in the US in nearly 20 years to be part of some perceived crusade? Nope, I've been on the other side of the planet.

At this point though, I remain unconvinced that is in fact what they are, or if that is even the correct application of the definition/characteristics.

I'm not really interested in convincing you. I'm here to discuss something, even as people lay out checklists for what a cult is there isn't absolute agreement. What you, the guy quoted above this, and perhaps @Ghostpanther don't seem to get is that while I am American and still have friends and family to care about in the US -- I haven't been in the US to be any part of the gun control politics for quite some time now. So, nope, what I say is really just what I say, not some oblique invocation of Obama, either Bush or whatever other politics you've been bickering about. As I said, I've been on the other side of the planet for nearly 20 years. Sometimes a question is just a question.

I'll have to reply to your latest post much later on, time difference.

[LaserChild9]

Nope do not see it as a problem, because as a individual I want the right to defend myself with a firearm. Same as I want the right to use a vehicle to travel with. Risks? Of course. But I rather take the very low risk of being harmed by one, then the low risk of being caught without one. And myself being more likely to be shot here in the US than say England, is even more of reason I want to have one. But being in England does not guarantee someone can not stab you or who is much stronger than you are. Or how gangs can. Reality does exist.

That says everything you need to say right there. You want a gun, you don't need one, you don't live on the frontier anymore. Did you ever consider that the reason criminals in the US have guns is because the civilians do? Street level criminals here don't need guns because the chances of their victims whipping out a gun are non existent. The sad fact is that because you want a gun, your criminals need guns.

And being in England does not guarantee someone won't attempt to stab me, but I can outrun a person with a knife, even Usain Bolt can't outrun a bullet.

How many school shootings does the US need to reach a year before you accept that allowing everyone access to them is dumb? How many times do police officers have to shoot innocent people before you realize that if there were less guns they would feel safer making simple arrests? It's not rocket science.

I guess you dont think assault is predatory or rape, or theft. Must be nice to be so naive.

Assault and rape are ofc predatory, but unless the majority of the population is doing it, you cant paint them all as predatory which you did when you said:

Nope, knowledge of and practice in the use of the current prevalent weapon of the times is healthy and prudent with humans being an aggressive predatory species.

Must be nice being so ignorant.