[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[ranzino]

i do not see brexit being cancelled. It is happening, the question is what kind of brexit is happening.

Perhaps you should have had that choice on your referendum last year, 3 choices hard brexit, soft brexit or no brexit.

IF (and a very vague IF here) they want to "Exit from Brexit", UK will have to do it by now.
EU will cancel the negotiations by virtue of a veto by RoI, if UK cannot solve their stance on borders and other stuff almost immediately; which would trigger a solid hart brexit by default. EU will not wait on DUP and May to find consent AND abide by it for 15 months, the "soft Brexit" train will leave within the week because of the scheduled EU meeting on Thursday next week.

[Deleted]

You make a new deal. Are we pretending countries don't trade with other counties? Its absurd on the face of it.

So are you going to stay in the single market and customs union or not?

The Irish lost get over it or rebel.

Lost what?! The irish question refers to whether there will be a hard border or not.

What do citizen rights have to do with the question? Are tou talking non citizens?

Are EU citizens going to have the same rights they have no and are expats in Europe going to have the same rights?

[Vankrys]

I honestly don't think it is going to happen they had a choice they chose a hard brexit. A soft brexit doesn't make any sense to start with. Why would you tie your fate to them and leave?

No I honestly think we will just be given more and more votes till people vote "the right way"

Lets not pretend for a moment this would be considered if remain won. They would simply of told us to stop being a bunch of whiny losers.

Hell you see the same mentality with people against Trump.

Dude, it feels like you secretly don't want brexit to happen.

There is no turning back, brexit is happening. I don't even think the EU wants to keep the UK at this point.

[Noradin]

i do not see brexit being cancelled. It is happening, the question is what kind of brexit is happening.

Perhaps you should have had that choice on your referendum last year, 3 choices hard brexit, soft brexit or no brexit.

He isn't British. He is just here to spread his conspiracy theory.

[ranzino]

There is no turning back, brexit is happening. I don't even think the EU wants to keep the UK at this point.

Oh, we would keep them. But also laughing at them for months to come and they will have to remove Boris Johnsom from the sight of the world
And no nice rebates anymore, sorry.

[primalmatter]

So are you going to stay in the single market and customs union or not?

Lost what?! The irish question refers to whether there will be a hard border or not.



Are EU citizens going to have the same rights they have no and are expats in Europe going to have the same rights?

I would imagine they would enter into a controlled the single market deal isnt one that benefits them already.

I freely admit I don't understand the point you are trying to make with Ireland so I can't really comment less you break it down.

EU citizens would have the same rights as any other tourist...

[Deleted]

I would imagine they would enter into a controlled the single market deal isnt one that benefits them already.

I freely admit I don't understand the point you are trying to make with Ireland so I can't really comment less you break it down.

EU citizens would have the same rights as any other tourist...

can't translate the first sentence.

Ireland and NI share a border, due to its history its a soft border not a hard border. If the UK leaves the Single Market a hard border would have to go up. This would breakdown the Good Friday agreement and be unpalatable to both sides.

So EU citizens would be stripped of thier current rights? And British Expats would all be stripped of thier rights in Europe? Sounds great...

[ranzino]

I would imagine they would enter into a controlled the single market deal isnt one that benefits them already.

I freely admit I don't understand the point you are trying to make with Ireland so I can't really comment less you break it down.

EU citizens would have the same rights as any other tourist...

For the Irish discussion have a look at yesterday's events.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-politics-live

btw: i like the stance of Scotland, Wales and London to get same threatment as Northern Ireland, if NI is so special and dear. Technically Brexit would turn into a "hard Eng-xit only" as everybody else would stay in single market.
Bwahahaha !

[primalmatter]

can't translate the first sentence.

Ireland and NI share a border, due to its history its a soft border not a hard border. If the UK leaves the Single Market a hard border would have to go up. This would breakdown the Good Friday agreement and be unpalatable to both sides.

So EU citizens would be stripped of thier current rights? And British Expats would all be stripped of thier rights in Europe? Sounds great...

A controlled market tarrifs all that jazz, regulated would be the more correct term I admit.

For the boarder I imagine it wouldn't change unless the EU meddles but if they do then hard it is.

Its how countries work...

[Noradin]

A controlled market tarrifs all that jazz, regulated would be the more correct term I admit.

For the boarder I imagine it wouldn't change unless the EU meddles but if they do then hard it is.

Its how countries work...

So you propose they simply stay in the EEA.

The UK is the one with conflicting treaties. They cannot have a hard border without breaking the GFA, and they cannot have a soft one without staying in the EEA and allowing free movement of people.

No its really not "how countries work".
Contries and treaties are a bit more complex than you make them out to be. This is not some strategy game from the nineties.

[Dhrizzle]

A controlled market tarrifs all that jazz, regulated would be the more correct term I admit.

"Tarrifs and all that jazz" would be bad for businesses in both the UK and the EU, it's what most Brexiteers were hoping wouldn't happens but they wanted to have their cake and eat it by keeping the free trade of goods (and more importantly banking services) but not allowing the free movement of people.

Also just saying "tarrifs and all that jazz" is a long way from all the negotiations that decide what the tarrifs and jazz should actually be.

For the boarder I imagine it wouldn't change unless the EU meddles but if they do then hard it is.

You seem to have missed a fundamental point of what Brexit entails. Currently there is no hard border between the UK and Eire because they are both part of an organisation that allows free movement of people and goods between its members (the EU.) A Brexit that involves leaving the single market (a "hard" Brexit) means the UK no longer wishes to allow this free movement, at which point some sort of border checks are needed in order to prevent the free movement, in fact "taking control of our borders" is one of the key things Brexiteers seem to worry about.

This is complicated by the Good Friday Agreement that saw the end of terrorist and paramilitary campaigns between Republicans/Catholics (who wanted to leave the UK and join the Republic of Ireland) and Unionists/Protestants (who wanted to remain.) One key point of the Good Friday Agreement is for there to be no borders on the island of Ireland so the Northern Irish are free to travel south to the Republic and vice versa. This is the point being threatened by Brexit.

The obvious solution is for Northern Ireland to remain in the customs union or single market so freedom of movement is preserved, this would require the border to be moved to the Irish sea, making NI more like a British Overseas Territory than a full part of the UK. The problem here is May's colossal fuck up and a failing of our Parliamentary democracy means the DUP (staunch Unionists) are needed to prop up the Tory government and have refused to support this type of measure.

Its how countries work...

None of what is happening can be categorised as "business as usual," can you think of many instances where populations have been mixed as freely as those in the EU and suddenly had all rights revoked?

[Huehuecoyotl]

Lets not pretend for a moment this would be considered if remain won. They would simply of told us to stop being a bunch of whiny losers.

Farage made it clear the evening after the vote that if the referendum was 52% in favour of staying in the EU, that he wouldn't stop the fight to leave. That he would ignore the referendum result and carry on campaigning. Then when it was 52% in favour of leaving, suddenly it became the fucking 10 commandments, carved on stone and handed down from god.

A small proportion said yes to leaving the EU. We can leave the EU and join the EEA, carry on as part of the EU trading area and be following the result of that referendum precisely. The fact that certain people have decided that it doesn't follow the intent of the referendum is utterly irrelevant. Nobody can know the intent of those 17m people, after all.

If people are completely determined to have a hard brexit, then let them campaign on that basis in another referendum. Let them explain exactly what kind of Brexit they want, so that people can point out the issues with it ask them to explain how they will deal with them. And then we can all laugh as people like Dribbles try and explain how they will keep the Irish border open. Or how they will feed the country. Or maintain the NHS.

Let them try and sell their vision, now that people have had a chance to get some understanding of what it really means. Then when they lose, badly, they can shut up and crawl back into the holes they came out of.

[Pann]

IF (and a very vague IF here) they want to "Exit from Brexit", UK will have to do it by now.
EU will cancel the negotiations by virtue of a veto by RoI, if UK cannot solve their stance on borders and other stuff almost immediately; which would trigger a solid hart brexit by default. EU will not wait on DUP and May to find consent AND abide by it for 15 months, the "soft Brexit" train will leave within the week because of the scheduled EU meeting on Thursday next week.

I am not so sure that this is or will be the case. I suspect (but could be wrong and I doubt it would be put to the test in any case) that if at any time between now and the UK actually finalising its exit from the EU that if we turned around and said 'Listen this Brexit malarkey isn't really working out, we're really sorry but would you mind awfully if we stayed?' the EU would bite our hand off.

First off, the UK's EU membership is mutually beneficial, as the second largest contributor it would ease budgetary concerns going forward and it would solve the Irish border headache. But I think, possibly, the most important thing if UK went cap in hand to the EU is the resulting PR victory for the EU - it would send a powerful message to the Euro-sceptic parties in various countries.

I don't think this is going to happen - but it's not over, until it's over.

[ranzino]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-talks-stutter

Theresa May has less than a week to salvage a Brexit deal that would open the way to trade talks before the end of the year, amid increasing signs of impatience within the EU over her handling of the process.

now that clock is ticking.

[Kallisto]

Farage made it clear the evening after the vote that if the referendum was 52% in favour of staying in the EU, that he wouldn't stop the fight to leave. That he would ignore the referendum result and carry on campaigning. Then when it was 52% in favour of leaving, suddenly it became the fucking 10 commandments, carved on stone and handed down from god.

Farages actions during the night of the counting made me know the true face of the Brexit campaign. They were not for democracy they did not care about will of the people it was only about victory. Farage when the early exit polls said close remain victory openly said it was going to be neverendum. It was UKIP and especially tory eurosceptics that pushed Cameron into making the vote undemocratic by denying the right to vote on this glorified opinion poll to groups of people who are legally entitled to vote in British elections. Because he was scared and they basically said that unless they did the vote their way they'd bail out of the tories and join UKIP (Or voters would swing from Tories to UKIP). There was upto 3 million disenfranchised people in this vote from areas that would have likely voted remain in high %s. The only reason this was allowed by the courts was because of how nonbinding this shit is. If the vote was a true will of the people, binding vote the courts would have thrown the election into the bin because of it's undemocratic nature.

No matter what May and her ilk say. This is never about Will of the people, this is not about Democracy, this is a Tory administration that has put itself into the corner, being out manouvered every step of the way by the EU which got itself together within a week of the so called vote. A Conservative government trying to look Strong, Stable but it's actions with the DUP is screaming Coalition of Chaos.

[Pann]

Apparently the impact assessments do not exist; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42249854. Not only are the negotiating team incompetent and inept it would appear is if they are unprepared.

"Committee chairman Hilary Benn asked whether impact assessments had been carried into various parts of the economy, listing the automotive, aerospace and financial sectors.

"I think the answer's going to be no to all of them," Mr Davis responded.

When Mr Benn suggested this was "strange", the minister said formal assessments were not needed to know that "regulatory hurdles" would have an impact.

"I am not a fan of economic models because they have all proven wrong," he added."

Yeah, let's just wing it Dave! It's worked so well up until now! Unbelievable! But not to worry bumbling Brexit buffoon BoJo is urging the EU to just get on it with it as it will all be magically ok if we start trade talks; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42249850

[Slant]

There is no turning back, brexit is happening. I don't even think the EU wants to keep the UK at this point.

I'm fairly certain the EU would have not a big problem with just ending the whole Brexit business and go on to be more productive in other, actually important, areas.

- - - Updated - - -

Apparently the impact assessments do not exist; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42249854. Not only are the negotiating team incompetent and inept it would appear is if they are unprepared.

To be fair, if such an assessment existed, would it change anything? Johnsson and Farage campaigned against all odds, in the face of countless experts and economic papers telling them it was a dumb idea. I don't think Brexit is about the impact it will have on the economy. It very much feels like Brexiteers want to exit despite economic concerns rather than because of them. It's all about emotions and a perceived feeling of independence, rather than actually getting more money into your pocket.

[Vankrys]

Apparently the impact assessments do not exist; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42249854. Not only are the negotiating team incompetent and inept it would appear is if they are unprepared.

"Committee chairman Hilary Benn asked whether impact assessments had been carried into various parts of the economy, listing the automotive, aerospace and financial sectors.

"I think the answer's going to be no to all of them," Mr Davis responded.

When Mr Benn suggested this was "strange", the minister said formal assessments were not needed to know that "regulatory hurdles" would have an impact.

"I am not a fan of economic models because they have all proven wrong," he added."

Yeah, let's just wing it Dave! It's worked so well up until now! Unbelievable! But not to worry bumbling Brexit buffoon BoJo is urging the EU to just get on it with it as it will all be magically ok if we start trade talks; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42249850

So we already had the climate change deniers, the theory of evolution deniers, the spherical earth deniers (so called flat earthers) and now the economic science deniers. It sound to be one can be a deniers of anything that doesn't fit its current agenda.

[Mormolyce]

I think they are just drag their feet till they can spit on the notion of democracy and back out.

It is disgusting on multiple levels that voting has been revealed to be a pointless action in the UK. It seems force will eventually be needed if the public ever wishes to be listened to.

You mean if 25% of the public wishes to be listened to?

[Deleted]

I think they are just drag their feet till they can spit on the notion of democracy and back out.

It is disgusting on multiple levels that voting has been revealed to be a pointless action in the UK. It seems force will eventually be needed if the public ever wishes to be listened to.

Article 50 has been triggered.

Brexit is happening.

This chaos is what you voted for.