Lore question to people playing Horde

[Skyduke]

How much do the other Horde leaders (per lore) know about what Sylvanas is doing?

In game whenever the camps are full of plague and desecration, the only npcs in them are forsaken. Are there any actual quests, or dialogues, novels or cutscenes (I mean, something canon) where it is made clear that she is basically using methods not exactly aligned with the honorable philosophy of the rest of the Horde?

This is a sincere question by the way, not meant to be inflammatory at all. Please keep fanboyism out of it as well, I am not judging whether what she does or not is good or bad, I just want to know just how much the others do or do not know.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Back in cata the Forsaken were using horde approved blight. At the start of Stormheim, Sylvanas made her intentions known, so I assume it’s somewhat common knowledge.

[owbu]

Depends on your interpretation on how players fit into canon I guess. You basicly get a free tour of all the atroicities as a tauren druid/elf paladin and offered quests to go do some genocide. So if you take that as canon, then everyone knows, because some of us told them.
I dont think thats how that works though. I assue in the canon verse only UD heroes officially got to play through those quests. I dont think the rest is supposed to actually know.

[Aucald]

I'm of the mind that the Horde racial leaders aren't in prolonged communication with one-another, and therefore only get intelligence briefings and the like from their auxiliaries in what passes for the royal court of the Horde. The impression I got from Stormheim was that Sylvanas and her Forsaken were acting more or less unilaterally in Stormheim - which is why she refers to the "full might of the Forsaken" as opposed to that of the Horde. She taps the Champion because of their proven track-record in terms of getting things done, but outside of this the campaign involving the capture of Eyir and deal with Helya are a unilateral act not associated with Horde goings-on in the Broken Isles (such as there are any).

[Destinas]

I can't think of anyone in recent years (aside from Garrosh) that knew about her plague/Val'kyr as a means to reanimate the dead. Except for one: Lor'themar is one of the only ones that has ever stated anything toward Sylvanas on the matter, and he's one of the few characters where she's stated less-than-honorable intentions, even being outright hostile toward him about it.

Before Galakras:

Lor'themar Theron says: Bladefist Bay is fortified -- by the Sunwell, we're getting slaughtered!
Lor'themar Theron says: Heroes. Port over to the docks and take out their shore defenses. Put a stop to this bloodshed.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: I can raise your dead, Regent-Lord. Your rangers can fight again.
Lor'themar Theron says: Sylvanas! You will leave our corpses alone, or I will deal with you here and now.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: I'm sorry to see your lack of commitment... What of the human corpses?
Lor'themar Theron says: ... well, I suppose that's between you and the Alliance, isn't it?
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Rise, my angels! Let your screams fill the streets of Orgrimmar with TERROR!
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Garrosh really has gone all-out this time, hasn't he? I expected more spikes, honestly.

During Galakras (if Lor'themar dies):

Lor'themar Theron yells: W...where...is this blood coming from?
Lor'themar Theron falls to his knees in defeat. Your army retreats.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: I can't wait to see the look on his face when I animate his corpse. We'd better win this battle!

After Galakras:

Lor'themar Theron yells: Finally! I will never get all of this dust out of my robes.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: Oh, you're still here? I had kind of hoped you perished. You would make a very attractive corpse.
Lor'themar Theron yells: I will take that as a compliment. We'll hold the docks for now and marshal the forces. Vol'jin should await you at the gates of Orgrimmar.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: If he's not dead.

It should be noted that in the Sunwell manga trilogy, Lor'themar was trying to hunt down Sylvanas for even being in Quel'thalas at all. During the events of BC and WotLK, Sylvanas was coercing Lor'themar to do as she said. The Blood Elves needed the help from the Forsaken in the Ghostlands to defend the Scourge, and as a result, Lor'themar had to do whatever Sylvanas wanted, which she acted upon to hunt down Arthas. In War Crimes, Sylvanas had a conversation in Thalassian with Lor'themar, trying to create a partnership again - but he didn't agree. They have a very conflicted history - he was once her lieutenant in Silvermoon, as well. So, it's no surprise that she would feel comfortable enough to say whatever she wanted to him in regards to her more unsavory activities.

As far as the plague, she's using it openly now. She's the Warchief - who's going to tell her "no" now? The last person was Garrosh, and Vol'jin never had any statement on that matter.

[Skyduke]

As far as the plague, she's using it openly now. She's the Warchief - who's going to tell her "no" now? The last person was Garrosh, and Vol'jin never had any statement on that matter.

That's the thing. She isn't using it openly. If she were you'd have the other races from the Horde at her camps where plague is omnipresent. As mentioned before, she speaks of the "full might of the Forsaken" and never of the Horde. And I did not ask for conjectures, I asked for solid evidence, in quests, novel or dialogue.

[Ash123]

You need to define your question more clearly.

What do you mean by "What Sylvanas is doing"? She is doing and thinking many things, some of them are open knowledge and some of them no one except herself knows.

Does the horde know everything Baine and Saufaung ever did? Baine, as honest as he is, will not tell you if he has a crush on Dark Lady.

And let us be honest, no one expects she behaves honorably.

[Destinas]

That's the thing. She isn't using it openly. If she were you'd have the other races from the Horde at her camps where plague is omnipresent. As mentioned before, she speaks of the "full might of the Forsaken" and never of the Horde. And I did not ask for conjectures, I asked for solid evidence, in quests, novel or dialogue.

Yes, she did use it openly. We see that, first hand, in the Stormheim opening - in fact during quests on both sides. The airship is destroyed because of it, and the coastline becomes plagued. Horde-side, you have to collect plague barrels and put down "byproducts" of that plague.

With Sylvanas taking the reins as Warchief of the Horde, she chose to make use of the plague once more, though this new one seemed different, or at least fine-tuned. Developed aboard the Black Rose by the R.A.S., this new plague was extremely volatile, exploding on contact with a sickly green liquid that melts away skin and flesh almost immediately, right down to the bone. The plague must be contained inside special vials developed by the R.A.S., and if opened, cannot be contained. Production of it apparently produced volatile "byproducts". Exposure to these byproducts caused rapid cell degeneration and reduced the subject to a shambling husk incapable of reason or thought, aside from a burning hatred for the warmth of life.

Its use wasn't only found in Forsaken catapults, as both Nathanos and Sylvanas were seen using it to tip their arrows.

Forsaken Befoulers and Forsaken Plaguebringers also use it at Warden Towers.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/New_Plague#In_Legion

We know that other racial leaders in the Horde knew about the Forsaken plague's existence since the Cataclysm. We know that, at least, Lor'themar knows how far Sylvanas is willing to go for the Forsaken. We don't know how much the other racial leaders have been informed, however.

[Flurryfang]

How much do the other Horde leaders (per lore) know about what Sylvanas is doing?

In game whenever the camps are full of plague and desecration, the only npcs in them are forsaken. Are there any actual quests, or dialogues, novels or cutscenes (I mean, something canon) where it is made clear that she is basically using methods not exactly aligned with the honorable philosophy of the rest of the Horde?

This is a sincere question by the way, not meant to be inflammatory at all. Please keep fanboyism out of it as well, I am not judging whether what she does or not is good or bad, I just want to know just how much the others do or do not know.

Up undtil the start of Legion, the Horde pretty much knows everything she has done, maybe except the capture of koltira and his torture. When it comes to Legion, they knew she had a form of the plaque on board for Stromheim, it would be odd if nobody saw an entire ship with that on it and her actions in Stormheim is proberly only known between the Forsaken troops, Sylvanas herself and the player, but then again, none of that is really important information for the other leaders.

So yeah, aside from her actions to get Evir, the Horde leaders know everything. Information travels fast on Azeroth and nothing has come up to stop the leaders from getting information. While Sylvanas does things in her own way, she is not really a character who hide many things.

[bufferunderrun]

How much do the other Horde leaders (per lore) know about what Sylvanas is doing?

In game whenever the camps are full of plague and desecration, the only npcs in them are forsaken. Are there any actual quests, or dialogues, novels or cutscenes (I mean, something canon) where it is made clear that she is basically using methods not exactly aligned with the honorable philosophy of the rest of the Horde?

This is a sincere question by the way, not meant to be inflammatory at all. Please keep fanboyism out of it as well, I am not judging whether what she does or not is good or bad, I just want to know just how much the others do or do not know.

yes they know but the horde races basically adhere to the rule "not in my backyard" as long sylvanas don't shit on other races turf no one gonna care; basically the horde is a faction in which span from the pacifist taurens to the evil forsakens.
Garrosh basically violated the taboo by shitting on the other race turf that is why the horde rebelled, if he keep bashing alliance even the m-bomb would have been ok.

I wonder if the alliance ever get an "evil" race.

[Syegfryed]

the only one keeping a eye on her was Garrosh, after him, no one know what happens in undercity

[Enkrypt]

I wonder if the alliance ever get an "evil" race.

Sure, they're called Gnomes. Just look at those big, deceitful eyes. They have a plan to take over Azeroth. You just thought Titans were the enemy. Nope.

[Ehrenpanzer]

yes they know but the horde races basically adhere to the rule "not in my backyard" as long sylvanas don't shit on other races turf no one gonna care; basically the horde is a faction in which span from the pacifist taurens to the evil forsakens.
Garrosh basically violated the taboo by shitting on the other race turf that is why the horde rebelled, if he keep bashing alliance even the m-bomb would have been ok.

I wonder if the alliance ever get an "evil" race.

That would require deviation from the lazy fuck writing of Horde=evil and Alliance= Lollipop handing out, peaceloving, poor downtrodden good guys

[Deleted]

That would require deviation from the lazy fuck writing of Horde=evil and Alliance= Lollipop handing out, peaceloving, poor downtrodden good guys

It's right there in the name, you say "Horde" and you think of a band of uncivilised barbarians trying to kill everyone around them. Same with stuff like 'Dothraki horde' and other mongol-like hordes. Which is also why it's an extremely stupid idea to try to stuff Nightborne into the horde. Blood elves kind of, sort of, fit cuz of how they were treated by humans in the past, but the Alliance actively helped Nightborne become who they are now instead of withering and staying under Elisande's rule.

While as any society Alliance also has its rotten apples, at least at its core it has pure and good ideology. Horde on the other hand does not, and never had, even with Thrall as warchief.

[ThePallyRanger]

It's right there in the name, you say "Horde" and you think of a band of uncivilised barbarians trying to kill everyone around them. Same with stuff like 'Dothraki horde' and other mongol-like hordes. Which is also why it's an extremely stupid idea to try to stuff Nightborne into the horde. Blood elves kind of, sort of, fit cuz of how they were treated by humans in the past, but the Alliance actively helped Nightborne become who they are now instead of withering and staying under Elisande's rule.

While as any society Alliance also has its rotten apples, at least at its core it has pure and good ideology. Horde on the other hand does not, and never had, even with Thrall as warchief.

The way I see it with the Nightborne is that they joined the Blood Elves first and foremost, and joined the Horde second through association with Blood Elves.

[ello]

Can't we just assume that everything the player character knows, our faction leaders know? Aren't we in constant contact with them?

But just looking at the way the other Horde leaders treat Sylvanas, even explicitly saying they don't trust her straight to Sylvanas' face.They wouldn't do that if they didn't know what was going on. Vol'jin, Saurfang, Lor'themar and Baine have all been shown to mistrust or be weary of Sylvanas at one pont.

I'm inclined to believe that the other Horde leaders know most of what goes on in the Undercity. They just don't give a fuck because 1) They aren't angels themselves and 2) the Forsaken are useful to the Horde.

[Bathory]

How much do the other Horde leaders (per lore) know about what Sylvanas is doing?

In game whenever the camps are full of plague and desecration, the only npcs in them are forsaken. Are there any actual quests, or dialogues, novels or cutscenes (I mean, something canon) where it is made clear that she is basically using methods not exactly aligned with the honorable philosophy of the rest of the Horde?

This is a sincere question by the way, not meant to be inflammatory at all. Please keep fanboyism out of it as well, I am not judging whether what she does or not is good or bad, I just want to know just how much the others do or do not know.

If I remember correctly, the plague was basically the Forsaken's nuclear weapon that both sides didn't want her using, but was being developed in secret. Some of the early Undead quests (right out of deathknell) send you to help out with Apothecary research, collecting reagents or using alliance/creatures/scarlets as test subjects. I vaguely recall one of the NPCs talking about how they WEREN'T supposed to be doing this, but Sylvanas' intentions were clear, that production would continue in secret, despite Thrall's wishes (I believe one of the undead NPCs in Thunderbluff makes mention of this too).

The underlying theme of the secret plague development, and how devastating it could be continued on for years through quests (and just walking through the Undercity, there's an entire wing dedicated to Apothecary research), until WOTLK and the Wrath Gate. That being the moment it's finally revealed and used against both by the Grand Apothecary (even though it wasn't with Sylvanas' knowledge)

After that, plague production was supposed to be halted, Garrosh's Ko'kron being sent to the Undercity (replaced the UC Abomination guards), to keep an eye on things and make sure the research wasn't continued.

Although, during the Forsaken's assault against Greymane, there's plenty of plague being thrown around. Garrosh doesn't say much about it, but he IS at ends with her. I believe the plague they are using is different from what was originally being developed.

Now that she's Warchief, I don't think anyone can really say much to her, and she's been using the plague pretty regularly.

Undead fo lyfe. Undead fo fyte.

[Mehrunes]

That's the thing. She isn't using it openly. If she were you'd have the other races from the Horde at her camps where plague is omnipresent. As mentioned before, she speaks of the "full might of the Forsaken" and never of the Horde. And I did not ask for conjectures, I asked for solid evidence, in quests, novel or dialogue.

She parked a literal boatload of Blight right next to Orgrimmar, then gathered Horde's champions to go with her and gave them a detailed tour.

[Skyduke]

Thank you for the answers.

Ironically the only Horde Leader that knew what he was doing was Garrosh, it seems. And Lor'Themar is her bitch. Good to know, thanks a lot!