Was Arthas that much worse a person than Illidan (spoilers)

[Wildmoon]

Arthas was not exactly someone I would be friend with even before he got corrupted. He was very demanding, too eager to prove himself and sought acknowledgement in an unpleasent way.

Illidan and Arthas were similar when they were young in the sense that both were really insecure about themselves thus seeking recognition.

[Qualia]

He suddenly gets on this huge revenge-boner even though he's never been expressed to be that type of person before, and due to his lust for revenge, Arthas takes more and more morally-dark turns. A descent into moral blackness isn't bad or anything, but it's so sudden and badly fleshed out in WC3. This would be forgivable, but Blizzard has done a piss poor job of going back to properly flesh out Arthas' fall from good. Even the novel by Christie Golden didn't do much except novelize the events of WC3, which isn't helpful.

I'd disagree with this, as Arthas' character has never really been established that well by the time of Stratholm. We can say that "he's never been expressed to be that type of person before", but it isn't as bad as it sounds, since he had never faced such a situation before. All we've gotten before that was just Arthas investigating the plague and hunting down the cult, which give a very minimal picture of his personality. Arthas' character was still being fleshed out by then - we don't know he was that kind of character, not that he wasn't that type of person. It's no more sudden than a character switching side on chapter 4, page 40 of a story (random example so don't bother guessing which story it was =p), It's part of character development, the author(s) don't have to spell everything out at the start.

People freak out and lose their shit whenever Thrall takes a poop, just because Thrall is voiced by one of the guys behind all of the original Warcraft story. But when Illidan is being ten times worse than Thrall ever was, no one seems to realize it.

People didn't like Thrall not because he as voiced by Metzen, but because he was one of (the other being Malfurion) the characters closest to being a Mary Sue in WoW. Seemingly perfect with virtually no real flaw that affects the story while being the favorite of the author. His flaws only began to show by the time of Cata when Blizzard started phasing him out of the main story, but after 8 years, people had already formed a bad impression of him.

Blizzard making Bolvar's sacrifice completely meaningless bums me out. I never bought the idea that there "always must be a Lich King" fully anyways, and even if we needed someone to control the remaining Scourge until they could be eradicated more fully, clearly we're doing a piss poor job of finishing that effort.
If one of the world's most noble paladins can be corrupted that quickly, it was clearly a terrible idea in the first place.

To be fair, he hasn't gone Arthas 2.0. He is now a much harsher, crueler and more immoral being, but he still hasn't crossed the line to being a villain yet. The guy, at least from what he claims, still fight for Azeroth and is willing to cooperate with the Ebon Blade for that purpose. Moreover, it was hardly quickly. 5-7 years have passed since then, and Bolvar wasn't in a comfortable position. Being continuously burned from inside, kept living, and have to learn to exert your will to keep the Scourge (in Northrend) in check must have been really taxing.

If we are to complain about quickly giving in, we'd have to do that with the Pantheon. They were impervious to even the Void Lords' corruption, yet in the matter of months being tortured by the Shivarra, they were almost giving in by the time we assaulted Argus. Compared to that, Bolvar is doing an okay job at least.

[Heladys]

Illidan spent most of his life roped in villainy under the belief he was doing the right thing, and while his fate might seem nightmarish, it's actually what he'd want and Illidan seems to ultimately ends up as a true hero and savior of Azeroth. Even if in-universe characters don't like to outwardly admit it, he's totally redeemed himself and got the recognition he's always wanted.

Arthas was supposed to be a hero but also ended up a villain. Unlike Illidan, though, he had no redemption arc or anything like that (a memorable quest in Icecrown taunts and savagely crushes the very notion of this), dies the horrible villain he was since becoming the LK, and suffers a fate worse than death for all eternity and no one remembers him for anything but his evil.

It's just weird how Arthas and Illidan's journeys ended up, and I'm wondering if Arthas was such a worse person than Stormrage he deserved what he got.

Whether you're a good/bad person isn't about what situations led you to your decisions, it's about what decisions you make in the moment.

[Ash123]

Arthas is definitely a worse person than Illidan.

One of the key difference between them is how they handle the situation when others do not agree with them.

Arthas literally got mad when Jaina and Uther can not agree with him and he took it as a huge slap to his face. He hated people who were at odds with him and his only response was to enforce his idea by literally mind-controlling others. He behaved like a child who cries endlesssly when he can not get the candy he wants. Sylvanas called him a man-child with good reason.

On the other hand, Illidan at least behaved like a reasonable adult. Tyrande did not love him, he was not happy but he never tried to force his love on Tyrande. His brother took his dream girl, and often criticized and punished him. Still he respected his brother very much. When you do not agree with Illidan, he would call you a fool, and he would remove you if you are on his way. But he would never shout at you "How can you not agree with me".


Even with Maiev, after all she had done, Illidan simply threw her to a cell, and that was all. Arthas did much worse to Sylvanas when the only thing Sylvanas had done was to delay him for a few days.

[Aquamonkey]

Arthas was good, but slowly turned bad. The intent behind the character was that he turned evil of his own accord, including everything he did as DK and LK. This is shown through years of development across games, novels, and comics. It's something explicitly stated by WoG... Then Blizzard retconned it as soon as Metzen was out. Now it was all Frostmourne's doing as soon as Arthas picked it up.

[therealstegblob]

I'd disagree with this, as Arthas' character has never really been established that well by the time of Stratholm. We can say that "he's never been expressed to be that type of person before", but it isn't as bad as it sounds, since he had never faced such a situation before. All we've gotten before that was just Arthas investigating the plague and hunting down the cult, which give a very minimal picture of his personality. Arthas' character was still being fleshed out by then - we don't know he was that kind of character, not that he wasn't that type of person. It's no more sudden than a character switching side on chapter 4, page 40 of a story (random example so don't bother guessing which story it was =p), It's part of character development, the author(s) don't have to spell everything out at the start.

Even if we ignore the fact that the whole "character driven to great lengths solely by revenge" is a really boring and tired cliche, I am going to argue that you need to at least provide a better grounding for their revenge lust than what was given in WC3/Arthas' story in general. Suddenly having a character inexplicably driven so powerfully by a need for revenge to the point they're doing increasingly villainous and selfish things is weak when you're not backing it up with anything. I'm not saying we need to know Arthas is somehow prone to strong emotion or something, but they could have given us more than what they did to justify Arthas' intense revenge. Without anything to go by, we're lead to believe Arthas is just an unhinged maniac who goes nanners. I donut like that.

People didn't like Thrall not because he as voiced by Metzen, but because he was one of (the other being Malfurion) the characters closest to being a Mary Sue in WoW. Seemingly perfect with virtually no real flaw that affects the story while being the favorite of the author. His flaws only began to show by the time of Cata when Blizzard started phasing him out of the main story, but after 8 years, people had already formed a bad impression of him.

People absolutely hated Thrall because he was voiced by Metzen. It's literally the primary reason people called him a Mary Sue. They accused Thrall of being Metzen's "self-insert" because they believed Metzen was single-handedly writing the story (or at least had a large enough hand in it that he was making his 'self-insert' a Mary Sue). It's funny you claim Cataclysm is where they dialed back Thrall being a Mary Sue when in fact it's Cataclysm where Thrall's (supposed) Mary Sueness is at its worst, with a lot of story focus put on Thrall and Thrall being 'the new Earth Warder' and 'World Shaman' and having a big dumb wedding etc etc.

Cataclysm was the closest Thrall has ever come to being a Mary Sue, but even then it wasn't that bad. He's just a main character who got a little too much specific story focus. Very few people were claiming Thrall was a "Mary Sue" or "Metzen's self-insert" prior to Cataclysm. In fact, it pretty much really started in Cataclysm.

- - - Updated - - -

Arthas was good, but slowly turned bad. The intent behind the character was that he turned evil of his own accord, including everything he did as DK and LK. This is shown through years of development across games, novels, and comics. It's something explicitly stated by WoG... Then Blizzard retconned it as soon as Metzen was out. Now it was all Frostmourne's doing as soon as Arthas picked it up.

I'm pretty sure Arthas was "Driven to insanity" in Northrend after he runs off with Frostmourne once he slays Malganis. Is that not what it said in WC3? I may not be remembering right, but either in WC3 or some ulterior story piece claimed he went certified "Warcraft Character Corrupt Insane(tm)" once he got 'lost' in Northrend.

[Aquamonkey]

I'm pretty sure Arthas was "Driven to insanity" in Northrend after he runs off with Frostmourne once he slays Malganis. Is that not what it said in WC3? I may not be remembering right, but either in WC3 or some ulterior story piece claimed he went certified "Warcraft Character Corrupt Insane(tm)" once he got 'lost' in Northrend.

Arthas was dominated by Frostmourne.

"Upon taking up Frostmourne, Arthas succumbed to the Lich King's iron will. The prince's sanity unraveled, and the runeblade gorged on his soul.
[...]
The breaking of Frostmourne unleashed many of the souls trapped within the runeblade. It also freed Arthas from the sword's domination."

[Oakshana]

in the end arthas did get redemption, you could see as he was dying and was in his fathers arms, you could see everything that happened really wasnt him, it was the corruption of the crown and Frostmourne that drove him mad and turned him the way he went,

he didnt mean for it all to happen like that, he despised the scourge yet under the influence embraced and empowered it.

they both had there time, and Illidan got an eternity of suffering as well, being Sergares' Jailer.

Yes... he was originally corrupted by Frostmourne, but that was all him. He was never mind controlled. And when he donned the helmet, he merged with Ner'zhul, but ultimately Arthas became the dominant personality and more or less snuffed Ner'zhul out (I still think he's rattling around in there somewhere, but with little to no power).

Arthas did everything he wanted to do. In the end, there was no redemption. Remember his last words, "I see only darkness for me".

[Aquamonkey]

Yes... he was originally corrupted by Frostmourne, but that was all him. He was never mind controlled. And when he donned the helmet, he merged with Ner'zhul, but ultimately Arthas became the dominant personality and more or less snuffed Ner'zhul out (I still think he's rattling around in there somewhere, but with little to no power).

Arthas did everything he wanted to do. In the end, there was no redemption. Remember his last words, "I see only darkness for me".

Retconned. Arthas was dominated by Frostmourne that whole time.

[therealstegblob]

Arthas was dominated by Frostmourne.

"Upon taking up Frostmourne, Arthas succumbed to the Lich King's iron will. The prince's sanity unraveled, and the runeblade gorged on his soul.
[...]
The breaking of Frostmourne unleashed many of the souls trapped within the runeblade. It also freed Arthas from the sword's domination."

No, no, I know it was retconned to ARTHAS DINDU NUFFIN, but in either WC3 or perhaps some lore released prior to the retcon, I thought it was Arthas "going insane" in Northrend ala generic "become corrupted" infamous Warcraft plot.

[Qualia]

It's funny you claim Cataclysm is where they dialed back Thrall being a Mary Sue when in fact it's Cataclysm where Thrall's (supposed) Mary Sueness is at its worst, with a lot of story focus put on Thrall and Thrall being 'the new Earth Warder' and 'World Shaman' and having a big dumb wedding etc etc.

Cataclysm was the closest Thrall has ever come to being a Mary Sue, but even then it wasn't that bad. He's just a main character who got a little too much specific story focus. Very few people were claiming Thrall was a "Mary Sue" or "Metzen's self-insert" prior to Cataclysm. In fact, it pretty much really started in Cataclysm.

Oops, I meant after Cata when they started phasing him out of the main story. Thrall was still taking a major part in the story during Cata. Not sure why I typed "by the time of Cata", tbh.

No, no, I know it was retconned to ARTHAS DINDU NUFFIN, but in either WC3 or perhaps some lore released prior to the retcon, I thought it was Arthas "going insane" in Northrend ala generic "become corrupted" infamous Warcraft plot.

You are probably thinking of the text at the end of WC3 Human Campaign that said "Tormented by Frostmourne's maddening voice, Arthas lost the last vestige of his sanity"?

[Shiny212]

What the hell you talking about, Arthas is a hero, always has been. Frostmourne and Nerzhul corrupted him, and he ceased to be Arthas. Illidan is fully aware of his actions at every point. He has been willing to see innumerable innocents die just to satiate his own lust for power, all the while during deluding himself into thinking he's doing it to save the world and "earn" the love of Tyrande who was always in a committed relationship to his older, wiser brother Malfurion.

[Eon Drache]

Lore wise in-game characters remember Arthas much more fondly than Illidan. Poor Arthas but wtf Illidan. Even after clearing the instance and Illidan tries to settle everything in good light Malfurian and Tyrande spit on him.

[therealstegblob]

You are probably thinking of the text at the end of WC3 Human Campaign that said "Tormented by Frostmourne's maddening voice, Arthas lost the last vestige of his sanity"?

Maybe. I just remember the scene where Arthas runs off into the blizzard and when we next see him again he's UCHIHADEATHKNIGHTKILLALORD6, and I recall that being where Arthas actually "snaps" and turns evil.

[Aquamonkey]

No, no, I know it was retconned to ARTHAS DINDU NUFFIN, but in either WC3 or perhaps some lore released prior to the retcon, I thought it was Arthas "going insane" in Northrend ala generic "become corrupted" infamous Warcraft plot.

Yeah, originally it was like that.

"After taking his vengeance upon Mal'Ganis, Prince Arthas wandered off into the frozen wastelands of Northrend.

Tormented by Frostmourne's maddening voice, Arthas lost the last vestiges of his sanity.

Now, driven by the sword's dark will, Arthas plans to return home to Lordaeron and claim his just reward..."

[Oakshana]

Retconned. Arthas was dominated by Frostmourne that whole time.

Wait. WHAT? Seriously? When did they do this? Was that for the DK Artifact storyline?

[therealstegblob]

Yeah, originally it was like that.

"After taking his vengeance upon Mal'Ganis, Prince Arthas wandered off into the frozen wastelands of Northrend.

Tormented by Frostmourne's maddening voice, Arthas lost the last vestiges of his sanity.

Now, driven by the sword's dark will, Arthas plans to return home to Lordaeron and claim his just reward..."

So I suppose originally it was left vague as "Frostmourne made Arthas go full insano" and then was later fully changed to "Frostmourne took more active control over Arthas and made him do bad things"? Stupendous.

[Aquamonkey]

So I suppose originally it was left vague as "Frostmourne made Arthas go full insano" and then was later fully changed to "Frostmourne took more active control over Arthas and made him do bad things"? Stupendous.

There was a middle retcon where Arthas was in control of his actions the whole time and deliberately did those evil things.

- - - Updated - - -

Wait. WHAT? Seriously? When did they do this? Was that for the DK Artifact storyline?

Yes.

"Upon taking up Frostmourne, Arthas succumbed to the Lich King's iron will. The prince's sanity unraveled, and the runeblade gorged on his soul.
[...]
The breaking of Frostmourne unleashed many of the souls trapped within the runeblade. It also freed Arthas from the sword's domination."

[Redroniksre]

There was always the theory as well that Old God corruption had a hand to play at it, whether active or passive corruption given the giant Saronite fortresses and presence of Old God minions around scourge forces.

[azkhane]

I'm pretty sure Arthas was "Driven to insanity" in Northrend after he runs off with Frostmourne once he slays Malganis. Is that not what it said in WC3? I may not be remembering right, but either in WC3 or some ulterior story piece claimed he went certified "Warcraft Character Corrupt Insane(tm)" once he got 'lost' in Northrend.

yep that was what happened, months later he returned to his base and slaughtered all of his troops , later he goes back to his home and kills his father and all the undead campaign from wc3 starts

to all who says that arthas was his own this:

Arthas: Yes. I've damned everyone and everything I've ever loved in his name, and I still feel no remorse. No shame. No pity.
Tichondrius: The runeblade that you carry was forged by the Lich King and empowered to steal souls. Yours was the first one it claimed.

Arthas post human campaign in warcraft 3 was a soulest thing puppeted by the lich king to slaughter and destroy, he later become the lich king but all the damage to his sanity and will was done to that point, when we kill him he recovers his will and sanity for a moment before diying and get terrified by all the bad things he had done period.