Universal Basic Income

[judgementofantonidas]

Oh? So most people there don't care about being rich? Interesting.

MOST people don't get rich. Only a very small handful ever do. And that margin of success is made smaller if you don't start from a group that is already that way. So, no, when given the option to leech off of a system that provides you something for nothing most people will choose to do nothing.

[cubby]

From what I understand cubby, the UBI would take the place of Food stamps and the like. Now that's where I think it's a bad idea.

If the UBI was just to replace food stamps, then I would tend to argue your side, and even more that it would be unnecessary, as we already have foodstamps in place.

But UBI isn't just hyped up food stamps, it's a guaranteed income for all people. Set at an amount to cover their basics - much more than just food stamps, and creating a much better place for everyone, literally everywhere.

The concepts are very complicated, and we are no where near a time or place to put it into effect (maybe 50 years from now, maybe). But the end goal is to have a society that has eliminated poverty, who only work because they want to, and where everyone's basic needs are covered.

I know it sounds very hoity-toity socialist high road bullshit. But it's a sound idea, highly idealistic, and counts on people wanting the best for everyone, not just themselves.

But the United States (and many other countries) have a long way to go before they are in a place where mentally, socially, and economically, UBI will work. It also relies heavily on automated systems for a plethora of services - including most/all manufacturing, services, etc.

I usually don't link wiki, but it's a nice general summary - and gives good distinctions between welfare and UBI, along with tech leaps we'll need to actually accomplish it.

Visual Example of UBI:

Everyone get X
People who want more work to get X + Y

And Y are pretty much only high level jobs requiring specifics skills. Because automation will just supress most low level jobs.

[AeneasBK]

Except that's not how it works.

Everyone get X
People who want more work to get X + Y

And Y are pretty much only high level jobs requiring specifics skills. Because automation will just supress most low level jobs.

Yes that was the point I was getting to, the poster I quoted was asking why work for X when you get X for free, implying he thought people who worked under Universal Basic Income would be working for free.

[cubby]

Except that's not how it works.

Everyone get X
People who want more work to get X + Y

And Y are pretty much only high level jobs requiring specifics skills. Because automation will just supress most low level jobs.

This is a great visual summary of UBI.

[Total Crica]

MOST people don't get rich. Only a very small handful ever do. And that margin of success is made smaller if you don't start from a group that is already that way. So, no, when given the option to leech off of a system that provides you something for nothing most people will choose to do nothing.

Ok and? Not sure why that's an issue. If everyone gets the same thing, which UBI gives them, those that want more can simply work for more.

[I Push Buttons]

MOST people don't get rich. Only a very small handful ever do. And that margin of success is made smaller if you don't start from a group that is already that way. So, no, when given the option to leech off of a system that provides you something for nothing most people will choose to do nothing.

Yes, in the current system where doing something punishes them.

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In the current system, you get welfare, let's say its $2,000 a month for example (for food stamps, section 8 housing, actual 'welfare', medicaid coverage). You have a home, you have food, you have spending money to buy some things, you have medical insurance.

You get that so long as you apply for jobs and make a faux effort at trying to better yourself. One day you get a job, the pay is $12/hour, and you get 36 hours per week so your employer doesn't have to provide you full time benefits.

In getting that job, you also lose ALL of your welfare because that income puts you above our laughably low poverty guideline. After taxes, you now have less money than you did before AND work 36 hours per week AND probably no longer have health insurance.

Why would someone want to do that? Do you see the problem? The current system encourages you to be a leech... If you do anything to improve your life you are made worse off.

----

Under an ideal UBI system, you get a UBI, let's say its $2,000 a month for example... You can spend that on whatever you want, one would hope you spend it on necessities first.

You get that no matter what... If that $2,000 a month is all you want in life, then sure, you can just sit around and do nothing else... But if you want more, you can go get a job and you will still get that $2,000 a month. Say you get the same $12/hour 36 hour per week job the guy above got... You now get $44,000 per year...

Getting the job is nothing but a gain for you... And since you always have the UBI to fall back on no matter what, you can shop around for jobs until you find one you enjoy...

Why would someone NOT want to improve themselves in that situation? There is no downside, you will get your UBI no matter what... Whether you go to school, whether you get a job paying you $8/hour or a job paying you $100/hour... If you want more you have the same incentive to improve as anyone today has... The only difference is you aren't punished for trying to improve yourself like people today are.

[Theinquisition]

If the UBI was just to replace food stamps, then I would tend to argue your side, and even more that it would be unnecessary, as we already have foodstamps in place.

But UBI isn't just hyped up food stamps, it's a guaranteed income for all people. Set at an amount to cover their basics - much more than just food stamps, and creating a much better place for everyone, literally everywhere.

The concepts are very complicated, and we are no where near a time or place to put it into effect (maybe 50 years from now, maybe). But the end goal is to have a society that has eliminated poverty, who only work because they want to, and where everyone's basic needs are covered.

I know it sounds very hoity-toity socialist high road bullshit. But it's a sound idea, highly idealistic, and counts on people wanting the best for everyone, not just themselves.

But the United States (and many other countries) have a long way to go before they are in a place where mentally, socially, and economically, UBI will work. It also relies heavily on automated systems for a plethora of services - including most/all manufacturing, services, etc.

I usually don't link wiki, but it's a nice general summary - and gives good distinctions between welfare and UBI, along with tech leaps we'll need to actually accomplish it.

Visual Example of UBI:

Everyone get X
People who want more work to get X + Y

And Y are pretty much only high level jobs requiring specifics skills. Because automation will just supress most low level jobs.

Well, at the risk of getting into a very long conversation while im at work, I'll say that it's a lofty idea, but one I don't think would work very well in reality.

[Krastyn]

What im saying is that many poor people, are horrible with money. Some have drug problems, alcohol problems, or are just immature and spend money on dumb shit. Not only would a UBI enable shitty behaviors further, but end up costing the state even more.

You are one again making claims with ZERO backing. How is UBI going to enable bad behavior anymore than the current system? How is it going to cost the state even more? Back up your statements.

Furthermore, all 3 of the reasons (alcohol, drugs, bad choices) you list for people being poor (and I disagree it is the majority) are all societal problems, and are all problems now.

[Theinquisition]

You are one again making claims with ZERO backing. How is UBI going to enable bad behavior anymore than the current system? How is it going to cost the state even more? Back up your statements.

Furthermore, all 3 of the reasons (alcohol, drugs, bad choices) you list for people being poor (and I disagree it is the majority) are all societal problems, and are all problems now.

I'm not stating it as a fact, it's an opinion based on experience and perspective.

[Krastyn]

I'm not stating it as a fact, it's an opinion based on experience and perspective.

What experience do you have with UBI?

[rayvio]

Oh? So most people there don't care about being rich? Interesting.

what would be so good about being rich? stressing about managing the money, what causes best deserve some (even if you're a sociopath and don't care about doing good you'd still need to think about maintaining good publicity) worry about being targeted for theft, ransom, etc
having enough to get by without a constant fear of falling below the poverty line and having enough extra income to form a safety net if anything goes wrong and maintain a comfortable lifestyle would be enough for me
that being said, if my health allowed it then I would still prefer to work than not. I'd much prefer the freedom of being able to devote my time to something I was genuinely passionate about instead of financial pressure pushing me towards a better paying job that would make me miserable though
and a well designed universal basic income would essentially be the bare minimum, the very basic. enough for food, shelter, transport and the most basic of comforts but no savings (the system being the safety net after all) but no luxuries

obviously making such a system work would be a huge project and would take many, many false starts. it would also require a lot of effort to close up abuse of such a system and, just like the current welfare systems, would have many pros and cons. perfection can never be attained. it would be nice if the people in power gave a shit about getting as close to it as possible though

[Theinquisition]

What experience do you have with UBI?

Probably as much as you.

[Krastyn]

Probably as much as you.

Seeing as how you have no idea what I do, or my experience, that basically says you have zero experience. So all you're left with is an opinion that is backed up with no actual facts. Thanks for the input, but I'll take data over some random opinion based on nothing.

[Theinquisition]

Seeing as how you have no idea what I do, or my experience, that basically says you have zero experience. So all you're left with is an opinion that is backed up with no actual facts. Thanks for the input, but I'll take data over some random opinion based on nothing.

Cool Story Bro, needs more dragons.

[Torrasque]

I consider it an inevitability with the progress of automation. Which, by that point, it would be fine. Inherently, most people would be jobless by default, and this would simply cycle money from the government directly into the market rather seamlessly.

[Queen of Hamsters]

They've made a trial in some African country, can't remember the name.

It was downright inspiring to see. People didn't stop looking for ways to have meaning, on the contrary the income promoted people to dare try business ventures.

Of course, the worst among the worst of mankind will keep screaming "IT MAKES PEOPLE LAZY!!!!" until their dying breath, just so that they can stockpile 30 billion rather than a measly 20 billion USD!

UBI would lead us into a never before seen era of innovation. It would probably result in a noticably higher mental health among the population to boot, making it possible to save money.

[melodramocracy]

UBI wont ever be accepted in the US. Puritan mindset is way too prevalent. After all, if your existence doesnt revolve around making someone else wealthy, you’re useless.

[Captain N]

UBI wont ever be accepted in the US. Puritan mindset is way too prevalent. After all, if your existence doesnt revolve around making someone else wealthy, you’re useless.

Wide-scale UBI might not be accepted but there are places out there in the States that have Guaranteed Incomes for employees. Not exactly the same as UBI but similar.

[PosPosPos]

For the alt-righters screaming "UBI makes people lazy" "why would anyone work if they were already paid enough to live", why do the rich still work and make money if they have enough money to comfortably or even lavishly live off the rest of their lives?

[Louisa Bannon]

why do the rich still work and make money if they have enough money to comfortably or even lavishly live off the rest of their lives?

Further, it's actually the rich that work the system the hardest and always have their hands out. Most people in the 1% are created that way because the laws are set up to favor them. So sure, they make that "welfare mom" feel bad for trying to make ends meet.

Don't any of you watch Archer? Classic misdirection...

The most obvious example is the financial crisis of 2008. Hands were slapped, nobody went to prison for what had to be the biggest series of fraudulent business behavior the world has ever seen. Not only were the "banksters" not imprisoned, many of them were made solvent on the basis that what they controlled was "too big to fail." That's a protected class of persons doing a protected type of business under Title 12 of the Federal laws in the U.S.

The most crime taking place today is performed by the predatory rich.