Page 14 of 19 FirstFirst ...
4
12
13
14
15
16
... LastLast
  1. #261

    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I comprehend it just fine.

    I just think it's a point of view that Bastiat fundamentally rooted in things like circular reasoning, and which therefore doesn't hold up to scrutiny. The dude was wrong about a lot of stuff. Some of his points do hold merit, and I'm not condemning him wholesale, but he's not some magical perfectly-correct writer.

    And it's not like I'm somehow unique in noticing this stuff;
    http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/...c_bastiat.html
    http://www.economictheories.org/2008...criticism.html

    Would you like me to quote some Keynes at you as a counter? Would you accept Keynes' word as truth without examining his arguments?
    Sure. Then I'll counter it with Hayek. We can play this game all night long. Youll never see it from my view and I'll never see your view. Difference between your view is you're good with legal plunder. I want you to keep more of your hard earned money so you can spend it as you see fit, including giving YOUR own money to the poor like i do "voluntarily "
    Last edited by Deathcries; 2017-12-09 at 03:52 AM.

  2. #262
    Holy Priest Saphyron's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Netherlight Temple
    Posts
    3,353
    It's actually quite simple. (following is arbitrary numbers)

    Job Income (month) After Tax (40% Tax) % of people (1m people) Total Cost Total Income
    No Jobs 10000 6000 10% 1b 400m
    Simple Jobs 10000 + 4000 8400 15% 1,5b 1,12b
    Entry-level Job 10000 + 6000 9600 15% 1,5b 960m
    Processing Jobs 10000 + 10000 12000 15% 1,5b 1,2b
    Low-lvl Service Jobs 10000 + 15000 15000 12% 1,2b 1,3b
    Harvesting Jobs 10000 + 20000 18000 10% 1b 1,2b
    Service Jobs 10000 + 30000 24000 10% 1b 1,28b
    Health Jobs 10000 + 40000 30000 8% 800m 1,2b
    Advanced Jobs 10000 + 60000 42000 5% 500m 840m
    Total - - - 10b 10,4b

    And then you pay taxes on other things etc.
    You make certain that the No job area. Covers: Rent, Food, Water, Heat, Electricity, Internet, Phone & Transport. Basically, all the necessary things you need to live. And those who work can then buy more expensive things and more things for themselves.
    Inactive Wow Player Raider.IO | Inactive D3 Player | Permanent Retired EVE Player | Inactive Wot Player | Retired Openraid Raid Leader| Inactive Overwatch Player | Inactive HotS player | Youtube / Twitter | Steam | My Setup

  3. #263
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    78,905
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathcries View Post
    Sure. Then I'll counter it with Hayek. We can play this game all night long.
    I'm not sure if you're deliberately missing the point of what I said, or if it honestly flew over your head.

    Quoting a 19th Century thinker and pretending that all their work is incontrovertibly correct is not a winning strategy. And you wouldn't accept it if I tried it, so I'll thank you to not insist that I give you that same (ridiculous) consideration.


  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I'm not sure if you're deliberately missing the point of what I said, or if it honestly flew over your head.

    Quoting a 19th Century thinker and pretending that all their work is incontrovertibly correct is not a winning strategy. And you wouldn't accept it if I tried it, so I'll thank you to not insist that I give you that same (ridiculous) consideration.
    I deliberately do not take you seriously. I've seen you quote Karl Marx's work. A lot of what your side on the political ideology isle tries to use Karl Marx's theories and try and install it as part of government as a way to get power through voting. Everyone loves Santa Claus. I know you're a very ardent Karl Marx supporter. It's obvious.

    Frederic Bastiat's The law is no different now as it meant back then. Many people who hold my ideology would agree. People who hold your ideology who wants to steal from others fruits of labor do not. It really is that simple.

  5. #265
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    You're underestimating just how much employment can be automated away without needing AGI.
    I was responding to this "Is it possible in the near future when robots and computer AI takes over every job.". Obviously theres a lot of current jobs that will be taken by automation/machines, but a lot of new ones are probably going to be created aswell. This has been happening since the industrial revolution.

    At some point UBI is going to be needed, but its probably not in the near future.

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Tota View Post
    If no one works, no one gets X at all, let alone more then X. (in a world without full automation)
    I can't tell if you're deliberately ignoring what I'm actually saying, or if you're just really obstinate.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathcries View Post
    You're trying justify stealing my money while telling me you're not stealing. It's the same thing as pissing on my leg and telling me it's raining, or you're saying you're not pissing on my leg. That's how this conversation is going. You see theft as okay, as long as it comes from .gov. It makes you feel justified in stealing. It's like telling a parasite that they don't have a right to the body. They feel they're justified in their actions. They're owed. They don't know any better. It's why we can't have a conversation.
    This 100%. its completely about "getting something for nothing". Giving everyone the ubo still doesnt close the gap between workers and non workers(have and have nots). its just a neo commie way to make welfare social acceptable by forcing it upon everyone. SO they arent looked down upon for being a bum on welfare Guess what neo commie bastards, right now, if you work, you have more than a guy who doesnt. same as in your system. You ppl literally have no shame. Ill die before i ever allow any system like this to occur in the US. Same with 100% the ppl i know and have met. Rather dead than red!!! FOR FREEDOM!!!!

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Glarolas View Post
    Finland's trial was a disaster because its was implemented as such. You cant trial only unemployed when universal basic income is for everyone and expect accurate results. Their test was literally a complete waste.
    was going to post this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kbtdadap View Post
    This 100%. its completely about "getting something for nothing". Giving everyone the ubo still doesnt close the gap between workers and non workers(have and have nots). its just a neo commie way to make welfare social acceptable by forcing it upon everyone. SO they arent looked down upon for being a bum on welfare Guess what neo commie bastards, right now, if you work, you have more than a guy who doesnt. same as in your system. You ppl literally have no shame. Ill die before i ever allow any system like this to occur in the US. Same with 100% the ppl i know and have met. Rather dead than red!!! FOR FREEDOM!!!!
    its sad that your capitalist oligarch overlords have you so brainwashed so heavily against something that would help people that you claim you claim you are willign to die to prevent poor people from escaping poverty and creating a more prosperous, stable society. i think you need to rethink your worldview.

  9. #269
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    78,905
    Quote Originally Posted by kbtdadap View Post
    This 100%. its completely about "getting something for nothing". Giving everyone the ubo still doesnt close the gap between workers and non workers(have and have nots). its just a neo commie way to make welfare social acceptable by forcing it upon everyone. SO they arent looked down upon for being a bum on welfare Guess what neo commie bastards, right now, if you work, you have more than a guy who doesnt. same as in your system. You ppl literally have no shame. Ill die before i ever allow any system like this to occur in the US. Same with 100% the ppl i know and have met. Rather dead than red!!! FOR FREEDOM!!!!
    Welfare is already "socially acceptable". Has been for 70 years or more. Trying to deny welfare is seen as monstrously inhumane, with good reason. This is true in basically every developed nation. We don't need to convince anyone of this; it's the standard and has been for decades.

    The rest of your post is just red scare nonsense, since nothing about any of this has fuck-all to do with communism. You know the Cold War ended, right? More than 25 years ago? Holding this kind of grudge, when it was silly as hell even at the time, just makes you look ridiculous.


  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Welfare is already "socially acceptable". Has been for 70 years or more. Trying to deny welfare is seen as monstrously inhumane, with good reason. This is true in basically every developed nation. We don't need to convince anyone of this; it's the standard and has been for decades.

    The rest of your post is just red scare nonsense, since nothing about any of this has fuck-all to do with communism. You know the Cold War ended, right? More than 25 years ago? Holding this kind of grudge, when it was silly as hell even at the time, just makes you look ridiculous.
    It's only socially acceptable by other people who are okay with legal plunder. Parasites find it socially acceptable to take from their host. They don't contribute to the body. They only harm the body. The parasite doesn't care how you feel it only takes.

    Cold War ended but the war against communism did not. There are people like yourself who justify taking people's money and redistributing that wealth to someone else, and they do it by gun point. That's immoral and the only people who justify that shit are communist. People like you is why Donald Trump won. People are fed up with government over reach, and people like you who carry their water. It's only ridiculous to people like you who are ardent followers of Marxism.

    Also fuck most of the republicans because they allow this shit to happen and don't mind stepping on the backs of the working man just to gain more power and grow big governments hold upon the people.

    You would think for seeing how much backlash you get on this forums that not everyone thinks like you, or that your views are not "socially acceptable". I've seen you get thoroughly destroyed in arguments and then you shout out that their argument is ridiculous, just because you don't like it. A thief thinks the victims argument is void because the thief's owed. Basically your beliefs. That's why you don't see from our point of view who sees stealing as immoral. You think it's moral and you play mental gymnastics on this forums to justify it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NihilSustinet View Post
    was going to post this.

    - - - Updated - - -



    its sad that your capitalist oligarch overlords have you so brainwashed so heavily against something that would help people that you claim you claim you are willign to die to prevent poor people from escaping poverty and creating a more prosperous, stable society. i think you need to rethink your worldview.
    Three simple rules to not be poor in America. Finish high school. Get a job. Don't get a female or yourself if a female, pregnant before marriage. That's coming from a left leaning research firm.

    If you're poor it's most likely due to poor decisions. I don't owe you my fucking money because you're stupid. It really is that simple. To bad you or Endus will never figure that out though.
    Last edited by Deathcries; 2017-12-09 at 09:03 PM.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathcries View Post
    It's only socially acceptable by other people who are okay with legal plunder. Parasites find it socially acceptable to take from their host. They don't contribute to the body. They only harm the body. The parasite doesn't care how you feel it only takes.

    Cold War ended but the war against communism did not. There are people like yourself who justify taking people's money and redistributing that wealth to someone else, and they do it by gun point. That's immoral and the only people who justify that shit are communist. People like you is why Donald Trump won. People are fed up with government over reach, and people like you who carry their water. It's only ridiculous to people like you who are ardent followers of Marxism.

    Also fuck most of the republicans because they allow this shit to happen and don't mind stepping on the backs of the working man just to gain more power and grow big governments hold upon the people.

    You would think for seeing how much backlash you get on this forums that not everyone thinks like you, or that your views are not "socially acceptable". I've seen you get thoroughly destroyed in arguments and then you shout out that their argument is ridiculous, just because you don't like it. A thief thinks the victims argument is void because the thief's owed. Basically your beliefs. That's why you don't see from our point of view who sees stealing as immoral. You think it's moral and you play mental gymnastics on this forums to justify it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Three simple rules to not be poor in America. Finish high school. Get a job. Don't get a female or yourself if a female, pregnant before marriage. That's coming from a left leaning research firm.

    If you're poor it's most likely due to poor decisions. I don't owe you my fucking money because you're stupid. It really is that simple. To bad you or Endus will never figure that out though.
    its just as sad that you believe that there is, and support the existence of, one "correct" path through life. Life shouldnt be that way. Again, time to rethink your worldview.

  12. #272
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathcries View Post
    It's only socially acceptable by other people who are okay with legal plunder.
    You mean people who don't want to see others die in the streets? Yeah, I'll support some of that "legal plunder" if it means helping my fellow man to stay alive.

    Seems like the patriotic thing to do, too, helping your countrymen to survive. What's the opposite of a patriot, again?
    Last edited by mmoc3ff0cc8be0; 2017-12-09 at 11:26 PM.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Daelak View Post
    There are machines that can already tig weld better than any human can, for longer periods of time. Also, the military is already looking into autonomous vehicles and robotics as superior substitutes to actual human beings.

    Computers can determine that, they already do it millions of times a day at factories across the world.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Cool story. Actually they just fall into the final ring of safety net, the prison system, a cost that is included in taxation, and in some states, a profit for private prison systems.
    as a certified tig welder I call bullshit on your assesment of robotic tig welders.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    But isn't that an insane request?
    not at all. nobody should have the priveledge of living off someone elses labor unless they have in some way earned that priveledge through a prior act.
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  14. #274
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    NorCal
    Posts
    24,166
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    not at all. nobody should have the priveledge of living off someone elses labor unless they have in some way earned that priveledge through a prior act.
    So what about an infant?
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  15. #275
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    78,905
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    not at all. nobody should have the priveledge of living off someone elses labor unless they have in some way earned that priveledge through a prior act.
    That's a viewpoint that basically no nation in the civilized world agrees with. The idea that people need to earn their basic survival is inhumane and arguably outright evil.

    It's particularly silly because it isn't even internally consistent. Unless you've got kids or other family you, personally, are supporting, nobody is living off your labor. They're living off the government's labor. And before you say "yeah, but only with taxes I pay!", note that this is no different than me claiming that YOU only live off the largesse of your employer. You feel you're owed your wages, the government is owed your taxes. You don't get to be inconsistent on stuff like that, not if you want people to take your argument seriously.


  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    So what about an infant?
    Or the elderly. Or the disabled. Or the sick. Or the mentally handicapped.

  17. #277
    I'm quite fond of Charles Murray's UBI proposal. Basically it is $10,000 a year plus $3000 for healthcare that replaces all existing federal welfare programs.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathcries View Post
    It's only ridiculous to people like you who are ardent followers of Marxism.
    I'm a moderate party supporter in Sweden. I see welfare as a vital part of society, not so you can live a luxury life but so you don't fucking end up on the streets because you got unlucky with not being able to get a job in time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathcries View Post
    If you're poor it's most likely due to poor decisions. I don't owe you my fucking money because you're stupid. It really is that simple. To bad you or Endus will never figure that out though.
    Move to some place where there are no taxes if you don't like the state using taxes for welfare and so forth.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Tota View Post
    This is a nice thought, but who is providing X to everyone?

    Money DOES grow on trees, but someone has to harvest it in order to give it to everyone!

    So, who are the people harvesting money for free for everyone to have?
    Most harvesting is automated nowadays, and its getting to the point where from ground to mouth, no human hands will be involved in the growth, processing, or transport of your food.

    So there are no people harvesting that money for free for you. It harvests itself.

  20. #280
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    We can't have a conversation because you;

    A> make stuff up, like the idea that taxes are theft (they aren't, by any definition of the word), and
    B> insult me rather than making any effort whatsoever to make a reasoned argument to defend your position.

    I'll have that conversation, but you need to actually make an effort and stop being insulting, if you want to have it. You're not making any effort to do so. The fault for that is yours, not mine.
    I hate when people say that taxation is theft. If you wanted to draw a parallel, its more like armed robbery.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •