Universal Basic Income

[judgementofantonidas]

So what about an infant?

don't be silly. working adults is the only thing I am talking about.

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That's a viewpoint that basically no nation in the civilized world agrees with. The idea that people need to earn their basic survival is inhumane and arguably outright evil.

It's particularly silly because it isn't even internally consistent. Unless you've got kids or other family you, personally, are supporting, nobody is living off your labor. They're living off the government's labor. And before you say "yeah, but only with taxes I pay!", note that this is no different than me claiming that YOU only live off the largesse of your employer. You feel you're owed your wages, the government is owed your taxes. You don't get to be inconsistent on stuff like that, not if you want people to take your argument seriously.

color the arguement however you like to try and discredit a valid arguement. you normally do.

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Or the elderly. Or the disabled. Or the sick. Or the mentally handicapped.

the elderly who have hopefully put in to get out?
the sick who hopefully payed into short/long term dissability?

the mentally handicapped I am not allowed to field an answer for on these forums. too many people get but hurt at the answer.

[kbtdadap]

You neo commie marists liek edus and his shameles silk, have no idea why ppl who work hard would want to keep what they worked for? and not give it up inwillingly? i want to be free to give me extra money to whom i see fit. after all, its mine. HOW DARE YOU bastards even think you deserve to reap the rewards of my back breaking hard work. You ppl have no shame and are the slime of society. Im all for helping any who cant help themselves, elderly,children,handicapped. im UNWILLING to help scum liek endus and his ilk who think they get a portion of my hard work while they work/dont earn any for themselves. like being alive means you should be entitled to steal the labor of others. People like myself, will never willingly give by force to those who dont help chip in themselves. Rather die. EVERY SINGLE WORKING PERSON I EVER MET, feels the same way. and ive lived in 12 countries and have been all over the world. You neo commies better learn to take care of yourselves or better yet, you better invent some star trek level tech, real fucking quick. before you all starve and die off. Your time of freeloading off all rdy struggling ppl is over in this world. Get yourselves rdy. famine and hunger en mass is coming for those who dont pull their weight. Slime like Endus will be hardest to remove, they have their leeching fingers tugging on the heart strings of weak willed ppl.

[judgementofantonidas]

You neo commie marists liek edus and his shameles silk, have no idea why ppl who work hard would want to keep what they worked for? and not give it up inwillingly? i want to be free to give me extra money to whom i see fit. after all, its mine. HOW DARE YOU bastards even think you deserve to reap the rewards of my back breaking hard work. You ppl have no shame and are the slime of society. Im all for helping any who cant help themselves, elderly,children,handicapped. im UNWILLING to help scum liek endus and his ilk who think they get a portion of my hard work while they work/dont earn any for themselves. like being alive means you should be entitled to steal the labor of others. People like myself, will never willingly give by force to those who dont help chip in themselves. Rather die. EVERY SINGLE WORKING PERSON I EVER MET, feels the same way. and ive lived in 12 countries and have been all over the world. You neo commies better learn to take care of yourselves or better yet, you better invent some star trek level tech, real fucking quick. before you all starve and die off. Your time of freeloading off all rdy struggling ppl is over in this world. Get yourselves rdy. famine and hunger en mass is coming for those who dont pull their weight. Slime like Endus will be hardest to remove, they have their leeching fingers tugging on the heart strings of weak willed ppl.

Gotta say, maybe not all the words, but the general feelings behind this post I agree with.

[Dezerte]

I hate when people say that taxation is theft. If you wanted to draw a parallel, its more like armed robbery.

It's how we pay back to society. But ideally you would when born, with your parents consent, agree to this social contract where you as a child will have many benefits growing up. Alternatively you'd be required to pay back what you benefited from growing up.

But I think the bigger issue would be how you would live as a stateless person, let alone as an infant.

[kamuimac]

It's how we pay back to society. But ideally you would when born, with your parents consent, agree to this social contract where you as a child will have many benefits growing up. Alternatively you'd be required to pay back what you benefited from growing up.

But I think the bigger issue would be how you would live as a stateless person, let alone as an infant.

technicaly its not - technicaly it how people pay off society so they dont start robbing the rich from jealousy - without taxes and money going into social support poor people will follow the first idiot saying "lets rob the rich in name of social justice"

its controlled robbery in order to ensure public peace .

[Endus]

I hate when people say that taxation is theft. If you wanted to draw a parallel, its more like armed robbery.

Oh, nonsense. Nobody's holding a gun on you, and if you don't like your tax burden, you're free to take yourself elsewhere any time.

color the arguement however you like to try and discredit a valid arguement. you normally do.

What "valid argument"? You posited a completely inhumane point of view, and I pointed that out. It may be "valid" in the sense that you could build a society like that, but it's completely antithetical to Western values and concepts like human rights and democracy.

You neo commie marists liek edus and his shameles silk, have no idea why ppl who work hard would want to keep what they worked for? and not give it up inwillingly?

I know exactly why. "Selfishness and greed".

im UNWILLING to help scum liek endus and his ilk who think they get a portion of my hard work while they work/dont earn any for themselves.

It's cute that you think I'm living off government support, but you're wrong. I just have compassion and empathy for those who might need help. Shocking concept, I know.

[judgementofantonidas]

What "valid argument"? You posited a completely inhumane point of view, and I pointed that out. It may be "valid" in the sense that you could build a society like that, but it's completely antithetical to Western values and concepts like human rights and democracy.

The burden of my handicapped child is mine to bear, not yours, not my neighbor's, not thousands of people I do not even know. Same goes for your child, unless i choose to share that burden. The burden is not the government's to randomly assign to me.

As far as capable people, if it can be proven that they are capable and just not choosing to contribute to society they should not also be allowed to reap the rewards of other's labor. Fine, we all take care of one another, but not so fine we take care of people who take advantage of our care and do nothing whatsoever to support themselves or care for others as a matter of choice.

[Endus]

The burden of my handicapped child is mine to bear, not yours, not my neighbor's, not thousands of people I do not even know. Same goes for your child, unless i choose to share that burden. The burden is not the government's to randomly assign to me.

You claiming this to be true doesn't magically do so. And it objectively is not true, in any developed Western nation. The survival and sustenance of your fellow citizens, to protect them from the worst of the vagaries of chance, is your collective responsibility, along with all the rest of your fellow citizens. And the government isn't "assigning" such a burden to any one person, it's borne by the nation, which collectively represents all its members. And you, individually, are obliged to support that nation, as you have tacitly consented to, through taxation. And if you do not wish to, that's fine; you are free to leave any time. Because you are not free to continue to enjoy the benefits without abiding by your civic responsibilities.

This is fundamental, defining concepts of civics, that are universally true for pretty much every developed Western nation. This is why they all have welfare programs, and other forms of support for the poor. I get that you don't want to pay your share, while mooching the benefits, and blaming others for mooching at the same time, but it's a ridiculous and really not defensible position to take.

If you really want to just handle your own care and not pay the government for anything else, there's nations that would provide you that kind of framework. That you won't move there demonstrates the inner conflict in your argument; you want the benefit of living in a supportive nation, but don't want to pay your share. That's selfishness, not an ideological stance against government support.

[Kokolums]

You claiming this to be true doesn't magically do so. And it objectively is not true, in any developed Western nation. The survival and sustenance of your fellow citizens, to protect them from the worst of the vagaries of chance, is your collective responsibility, along with all the rest of your fellow citizens. And the government isn't "assigning" such a burden to any one person, it's borne by the nation, which collectively represents all its members. And you, individually, are obliged to support that nation, as you have tacitly consented to, through taxation. And if you do not wish to, that's fine; you are free to leave any time. Because you are not free to continue to enjoy the benefits without abiding by your civic responsibilities.

This is fundamental, defining concepts of civics, that are universally true for pretty much every developed Western nation. This is why they all have welfare programs, and other forms of support for the poor. I get that you don't want to pay your share, while mooching the benefits, and blaming others for mooching at the same time, but it's a ridiculous and really not defensible position to take.

If you really want to just handle your own care and not pay the government for anything else, there's nations that would provide you that kind of framework. That you won't move there demonstrates the inner conflict in your argument; you want the benefit of living in a supportive nation, but don't want to pay your share. That's selfishness, not an ideological stance against government support.

Its not so cut and dry. There is a point where a government takes so much (in the name of giving it to the poor) that it begins to stifle innovation and cause entrepreneurs to flee your society for others. North Korea (and formerly the USSR) took so much away (in the name of helping the poor) that their societies stagnate and suffer mightily. Enthusiasm for helping the poor must always be tempered by the need of a society to actually function. its a GOOD thing that we have people like judgementofantonidas who admire self reliance. We need it.

[Deathcries]

I'm a moderate party supporter in Sweden. I see welfare as a vital part of society, not so you can live a luxury life but so you don't fucking end up on the streets because you got unlucky with not being able to get a job in time.



Move to some place where there are no taxes if you don't like the state using taxes for welfare and so forth.

Or I can vote for politicians to take away welfare and so forth. See how this works? Probably not.

[Deleted]

Oh, nonsense. Nobody's holding a gun on you, and if you don't like your tax burden, you're free to take yourself elsewhere any time.

They will bring guns if i dont pay. Im pretty sure. Not going to test it.

All im saying is, that theft kinda implies I dont notice, while robbery is more direct.

[Kanegasi]

I believe UBI could work if it was truly universal. As in, everyone gets it no matter how much they already earn. Think of the distribution of wealth in graph form with a line along the bottom identifying poverty. With UBI, the entire graph simply rises above that line. The poverty line simply becomes the UBI line. I wouldn't quit my job if I got UBI, I would just have more money.

The problem isn't UBI, it's the money. Where would it come from? How would one reform the economy to ensure it works? How do we make sure people are still working at the jobs no one really wants?

UBI would be just the bare minimum, along with keeping all the laws about being paid for work and minimum wage and such. I would imagine if I worked at McDonalds and suddenly earned twice as much money, I would still need to work at some level to maintain an income I would want to live on. If UBI was set at a 40-hour week with minimum wage, that's a fraction of my current pay. I don't want to live on that.

[mvaliz]

How can anyone expect this to be a positive thing in long term, If I can earn X doing nothing, or X doing hard work, why would I choose hard work? This just leads to an unsustainable system where no one pays enough tax to pay it out.

Because I seriously doubt you will want to spend the rest of your life living off canned beans and cheap hot dogs while playing World of Warcraft in a tiny apartment. At some point you're going to, I dunno, want to travel somewhere? See something nice? Drive a nice car? Eat better food? As a warcraft player, I thought getting the next shiny was your prerogative?

If by some miracle you had a mental condition that prevents you from wanting anything more than a meager existence, then you will serve the public by being an example that people will look down upon and say "Man, I don't want to be like that..."

[Crayola Memes]

Here's a good video explaining the flaws of Finland's UBI test.

[Deleted]

there's nations that would provide you that kind of framework. That you won't move there demonstrates the inner conflict in your argument; you want the benefit of living in a supportive nation, but don't want to pay your share. That's selfishness, not an ideological stance against government support.

Actually we're not free to move were we choose. Most countries have strict visa requirements and/or require us to be wealthy. I for example can not move to Hawaii or Thailand or whatever. I can also not choose to not pay taxes as that would have armed government enforcers at my doorstep before long to steal my property.

[breadisfunny]

I hate when people say that taxation is theft. If you wanted to draw a parallel, its more like armed robbery.

have fun living in that hut in the middle of the forest than.

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Or I can vote for politicians to take away welfare and so forth. See how this works? Probably not.

no because i don't see how causing massive starvation solves anything.

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Have you ever read Frederic Bastiat's the law? I find you to be the Plunderer that he speaks of. I just want you to know that I find thieves who use government jackboot thuggery for thieving from the people who contribute which I and millions of other people who work, find immoral.

I find that reprehensible, and in most causing is a form of robbery. I know what you're going to say about legal plunder, so save it. I've seen you espouse it many of times on your communist beliefs on this forum. I still consider you a thief, and nothing more than a thief.

My bet is if a food crisis like Venezuela happened, you'd be one of the first ones dead.

i find your lack of empathy reprehensible.

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I'm not saying all people are inherently lazy, in fact I'd say most people find themselves happier when they are working, most of the unemployed people ive met, especially men, are very depressed.

What im saying is that many poor people, are horrible with money. Some have drug problems, alcohol problems, or are just immature and spend money on dumb shit. Not only would a UBI enable shitty behaviors further, but end up costing the state even more.

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Yeah, people still do it.

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From what I understand cubby, the UBI would take the place of Food stamps and the like. Now that's where I think it's a bad idea.

your brother is not respresentive of poor people so please take your "from what i understand of poor people" and shove it right back where it came from.

[wunksta]

How can anyone expect this to be a positive thing in long term, If I can earn X doing nothing, or X doing hard work, why would I choose hard work? This just leads to an unsustainable system where no one pays enough tax to pay it out.

A lot of people find joy in rewarding work. Plenty of people go back into the work force after retirement for example, not because they need money but because they want something to do.

Think of a UBI as a regular stimulus check. Most people would want to earn more to get things they want, not just live at the minimum level doing nothing. Would some people do that? Sure, maybe. The vast majority wouldn't and as studies have shown, would provide a net benefit to society.

And how do we afford to pay X? If literally everyone earns X base, how can you possibly afford it without taxing people more than you're paying them? Why not just scrap that, and give support to people who earn less than necessary or struggle to find work?

Sounds like you are confused. $X is provided to everyone. This is on top of everyone's wages they earn. So there are still people making $100k+ for example.

We already provide services for people to find work. It costs more money than just giving out a minimum paycheck. And the problem isn't finding jobs (the US is already at extremely low unemployment), it's making sure people have enough to cover basic stuff.

[segara82]

An UBI would most likely have the positive side-effect of reducing crime.
Aside from crimes of passion and upper ranks in syndicates most criminals do it to survive, it's the only 'job' they could get or find reasonable to get.
If these people suddenly get a certain amount of money no matter their circumstances, they would be less inclined to commit further crimes. Hell, some might even use that money to better themselves and their lives.

[Moshots]

You don't need to cut back on automation, just make laws that say machines need overseers/cars need drivers.

Especially since univeral pay wouldn't work in such an economy anyway, since no one would pay enough tax to cover the wages.
.

It would be easy to Raise the tax rate for all these factories that go automated.... Make them pay 50% tax instead of 35%.... the 15% being a "wage tax" which is used to fund this program....

[DSRilk]

I find you to be the Plunderer that he speaks of. I just want you to know that I find thieves who use government jackboot thuggery for thieving from the people who contribute which I and millions of other people who work, find immoral.

All im saying is, that theft kinda implies I dont notice, while robbery is more direct.

I believe Somalia had no taxes from 1991 until 2014 or so. Oddly, I don't recall a flood of anti-taxers from the US flooding there. Perhaps it's because taxation, as frustrating as it may be, is necessary to support the social and economic structure we rely on in order to prosper. In short, without the government and taxation, the economy you are earning your money from collapses in very short order and that money you make now drops in value to basically zero. Paying taxes is what allows you to live the life style to which you have become accustomed. You could argue that it's theft as you never agreed to it, but it doesn't make it any more beneficial to you to live in a place with a strong government and system of taxation. There's a reason people don't move from a 1st world taxed country to one where taxes are non-existent or easily avoided, and it's not the price of the airline tickets.