New Leveling and Dungeon Finder - Still ruins the experience

[Ielenia]

If you took me seriously then you are sadly more mistaken than someone who thinks that Hilaire Belloc is still alive.

... Have you seen the number of people in this forum that claim so many optional things in this game are somehow mandatory? And they actually mean it?

That, coupled with the fact sarcasm doesn't translate very well in written form, makes figuring out who's being sarcastic and who's being serious as hard as having a blind person locked in a dark, silent room figure out which way is north.

[Pickynerd]

Could you help me define immersion my friend? From my knowledge it means engagement of one's mind in a particular subject. So I don't believe pressing a button and sitting in stormwind is as immersive as engaging into the world. it could be, could you explain this better for me? what is your opinion (not trolling just want decent discussion and not simplified responses that are not articulated very well).

Thank you.

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This wouldn't exist because you would open up yoiur new LFG which is sharded with many other realms with more people looking for the same thing. Back then, it was you and 400 other people up at 2 AM; now it is you and 6000 other people at 2 AM

It's still the same number of people since most of those other people are from servers you wouldn't touch with a 10' pole.

[oldgeezer]

... Have you seen the number of people in this forum that claim so many optional things in this game are somehow mandatory? And they actually mean it?

That, coupled with the fact sarcasm doesn't translate very well in written form, makes figuring out who's being sarcastic and who's being serious as hard as having a blind person locked in a dark, silent room figure out which way is north.

Yes. Please don't take me seriously. In fact, next time you're in town, let's meet up for a meringue.

[Deleted]

... Have you seen the number of people in this forum that claim so many optional things in this game are somehow mandatory? And they actually mean it?

It's not mandatory but is optimal.
Put yourself in the shoes of a game developer.
If you create something in your game that is optimal what do you think will happen to your playerbase of your game?
Is not rocket science.
As a game developer you know that path will be the most taken by the community.

In this case game developers made LFD optimal. Everyone is doing it and it killed the world. And chances are you will be alone in the world doing quests.

[Ielenia]

It's not mandatory but is optimal.
Put yourself in the shoes of a game developer.
If you create something in your game that is optimal what do you think will happen to your playerbase of your game?
Is not rocket science.
As a game developer you know that path will be the most taken by the community.

In this case game developers made LFD optimal. Everyone is doing it and it killed the world. And chances are you will be alone in the world doing quests.

Except I'm never alone. Even when I'm doing World Quests outside of Argus, I'm always seeing other players, Horde and Alliance alike, even in areas not covered by current emissaries.

[Deleted]

Except I'm never alone. Even when I'm doing World Quests outside of Argus, I'm always seeing other players, Horde and Alliance alike, even in areas not covered by current emissaries.

Exactly, you are describing optimal content. Argus is optimal for AP farm, gearing alts, legendary farm etc Everyone is there. As a game developer they knew this would happen.

But we are talking about low level zones.

The next patch of world scaling will go to waste because LFD is still the optimal way. The world will still be dead.

[Darktbs]

Exactly, you are describing optimal content. Argus is optimal for AP farm, gearing alts, legendary farm etc Everyone is there. As a game developer they knew this would happen.

But we are talking about low level zones.

The next patch of world scaling will go to waste because LFD is still the optimal way. The world will still be dead.

The problem is that you are blaming LFD for a fault of the world.

Why would i choose SWTOR if wow is a better game?Are you saying that is wow's fault?

[Deleted]

The problem is that you are blaming LFD for a fault of the world.

Why would i choose SWTOR if wow is a better game?Are you saying that is wow's fault?

I'm somewhat blaming LFD because at this point in time it is overpowering any other method of leveling.
But the answer is not to nerf LFD. The answer is to buff world questing to at least be on par.

I'm just saying the low level quest zones are empty because LFD exists as an overpowering method.

And a new player is going to see this empty world full of nothing.

[Alydael]

Dungeon Finder needs to go

WoW is immersive, and the dungeons are a feat for those who have explored the earth. However, Dungeon Finder seems to give players the ability to AFK in a major city and press buttons, this is not the game or immersive what so ever, you go from World of Warcraft to que-popcraft.



EDIT(2) I am not saying go back to sitting in trade - i am offering LFG and sharding to take place. Powerful tech to be used. Y'all keep forcing this to say "I want vanilla rawr" but I am saying "DUde sharding is great! and LFG is great too (with sharding) so why not combine the two and get a group going for some WC while i am questing in barrens." Does this concept seem more valid? Please discontinue the vanilla comments as a form of argumentative stance. I want your opinions and discussion. Not a strawman you formed.

Also more specific LFD is such a powerful ssytem - so powerful it outweighs questing as a form of leveling. Therefore lessening questing as an option for leveling. That is the intent of this post. Creating a valid option for those who wanna sit in SW and press buttons (as an option and not optimization) and those who want to quest. right now questing isn't an option unless I force myself to play the game a certain way. (seems slightly redundant)

It is hard to take away QoL things once you have given them. People don't like to have things taken away.

I do agree that you have some good points but I don't think you have the correct solutions.

I remember the days before dungeon finder when it was difficult to form a group- it was not fun or engaging.

I have a solution. Quest chains that reward you for doing it the old fashioned way. The rewards can be special titles, special mog outifts mounts or even end game currency if you beat the dungeon on mythic.

Quest: Deadmines Adventure!
Step 1: Recruit 4 adventurers in Stormwind.
Step 2: Ride with your group (on a ground mount) from SW to the Deadmines.
Step 3: Kill (elite world mob rare) on the way to Deadmines
Step 4: Complete (Elite world quest related to defias/ deadmines) on the way to Deadmines
Step 5: Clear the Deadmines dungeon, killing (optional boss that only appears for players on this quest (added bonus).

I don't know if anyone would bother doing that but it would probably depend on the rewards.

[yamienigma]

these boards have made me grow to hate the word immersion. Every time i see it used it's to complain and want something removed.

[Ielenia]

Exactly, you are describing optimal content. Argus is optimal for AP farm, gearing alts, legendary farm etc Everyone is there. As a game developer they knew this would happen.

But we are talking about low level zones.

The next patch of world scaling will go to waste because LFD is still the optimal way. The world will still be dead.

Did you even read what you quoted? I can't believe you actually completely missed the part where I said, and I quote, "Even when I'm doing World Quests outside of Argus, I'm always seeing other players, Horde and Alliance alike, even in areas not covered by current emissaries."

[Deleted]

Did you even read what you quoted? I can't believe you actually completely missed the part where I said, and I quote, "Even when I'm doing World Quests outside of Argus, I'm always seeing other players, Horde and Alliance alike, even in areas not covered by current emissaries."

But this is a thread about low level quest zones...why would you bring up Broken Isles to the conversation?
There will be high levels in the level cap zones.

[RayenDark]

I've done the zones once-thanks. I want to level an alt as quick as possible without having to pay for it. Immersion is fun the first time around after that it's tedious and pointless.

[Sansnom]

I'm just saying the low level quest zones are empty because LFD exists as an overpowering method.

And a new player is going to see this empty world full of nothing.

And that is neither the fault of the questing nor LFD. It is also due to the player base is at the maximum level. Blizzard cannot make existing players create new characters unless they put a giant solid gold carrot at the end of the stick.

New players will see a less populated world than veteran players. Blizzard at least trying with CRZ and merging servers together. However, with these methods, they are facing backlash from other players.

[lordjust]

I'm somewhat blaming LFD because at this point in time it is overpowering any other method of leveling.
But the answer is not to nerf LFD. The answer is to buff world questing to at least be on par.

I'm just saying the low level quest zones are empty because LFD exists as an overpowering method.

And a new player is going to see this empty world full of nothing.

It's not just the XP/hr but also the world itself. A lot of quests are horrible if other people are around because Blizzard didn't fix the mob spawning. I did the first quest in Westfall where you have to talk to people to get some info and there were two other people doing the same. There were not enough NPC to talk to and they didn't respawn fast enough. So you're waiting on one single spot and wait for a mob to spawn.

From 1-58 you have a lot of these quests where there are simply not enough mobs and they don't respawn fast enough. Go to BC and it gets worse because respawn timers are longer and you have quests where you go long distances between quests. Like in Terrokar forrest you start in Shattrath, go to this druid, kill some mobs, go find this broken dude that patrols between Shattrath and Tuurem, go back to the druid, go to Shattrath, go to the Arrakoa outpost south of Shattrath and kill Arrakoa (they're probably all dead because there are 4 other quests for which you have to kill them), go back to Shattrath, go to Tuurem, go to the druid and finally go to you faction outpost in Terrokar.

If you can fly and are alone by yourself, it's fine because you just have to go from one place to the other a lot. If there are other people you're back again at spawn camping and waiting. WotLK is the same and with Cataclysm it gets better.

Low level zones are empty because the old quest format is tedious. A lot of time is wasted by waiting for respawns and going from one place to the other and your leveling experience doesn't get better with other people but worse because you have to wait longer for respawns.

[Nihilan]

TLDR: Yet another thread with a whiny OP who wants everyone else to play the way he wants the game to be played. Nevermind the fact that people might actually prefer things to remain the way they are. No, no, of course it must be changed to suit random guy OP and his silly ideas.

[Deleted]

So you're totally unable to join a guild and make friends? What makes you think removing LFG is going to suddenly make thousands or hundreds of people want to be your friend? They'd just group in guild and ignore your whiny butt.

The tool doesn't ruin anything, I still group with guild members, I still meet people in LFG, and my time is far better utilized on things that are actually important to me. Betting for groups in trade chat or standing at a 5 man hoping someone will show up and need / want a DK is a shit way to utilize my time.

I'm also not a special snowflake that needs my hand held to go out and level a toon to max level. When I do have a problem with a world boss or quest, I simply ask my guild to help.

But you don't need friends to do LFD.
I dont agree LFD should be removed, i just agree that "world questing" should be on par with experience gains with LFD spam.
To at least make people consider doing quests.
Right now no one even considers doing quests in the world because LFD is overpowered.

[kary]

But you don't need friends to do LFD.
I dont agree LFD should be removed, i just agree that "world questing" should be on par with experience gains with LFD spam.
To at least make people consider doing quests.
Right now no one even considers doing quests in the world because LFD is overpowered.

Categorically false, but don't let that stop you!

[InfiniteCharger]

The issue isn't whether there aren't folks who like LFD. It is a question of how it affects game play.

Vanilla WOW was designed around being 'social'. That is why dungeon finder didn't exist. The designed it that way for a reason. Original MMOs were implicitly based around the theme of discovery and interaction in the world as the basis for "immersion". So Ironforge had the only auction house because they WANTED people to queue up there and then use SOCIAL chat channels to form groups. That was the point. Not only did it impact group content, but everything else. All other aspects of the game benefited from this. If you went to IF or a major city you would find large groups of people (and lag) using social channels be able to trade, get enchants, open lock boxes , etc. This was all the intended purpose and design of the system, which was implicitly social. And of course folks would show off their gear as a social perk. And guess what, that was an extremely popular formula.

Today's WOW is totally a different game. It is partly a "game lobby" where you sit in your garrison, order hall or the vindicaar and look for stuff to do. You don't have to be "social" anymore. And as part of being "social" you don't have to "role play" any more. Meaning maintaining some semblance of character, because you are just one of a gazillion other anonymous folks playing in the dungeon queue. Nobody has any identity anymore because of the sharing/CRZ tech. So that aspect of the "social" game is just going away. That is not a LFD problem it is a problem of the age of the game and the fact that players today want things to be efficient. But that efficiency has a price in terms of game play.

Ultimately if the game designer has to decide to put time, money and effort into "world" content vs putting time, money and effort into dungeons and other kinds of instanced content, they will look at the current state of game play and make a decision. If folks aren't "out in the world" as much because they can just sit in one place and do stuff via queuing then obviously they aren't going to make more large and expansive zones. And this is exactly what we have seen since Pandaria. And if they do create "world" content, they have to add incentives to FORCE people to go out into the world, especially at max level. And this is what they are doing. More chests, more rares that respawn and other things are all part of getting people back out into the world. The viability of "world" content has to be balanced with the QOL and convenience of dungeon queuing. So this is why they made things like the Timeless isle and Tanaan, the Broken Shore and World Quests. It is a way of getting folks back into the world and doing stuff, even if it is limited to max level zones for an expansion. And if they apply this same formula to old content via scaling, that would be a way of bringing folks back into the old world as well.

Also, what the OP suggested is actually there in the form of mythic+ dungeons. Which again reinforces the point that if the game developer wants to promote a certain type of game play they have to build incentives to promote that into the system. Mythic+ and former challenge mode dungeons already implement most of the ideas the OP suggested, albeit for max level characters. The only way to queue for a mythic+ dungeon is to physically go to the instance. And if they were to create scaled mythic+ versions of ALL dungeons in the old world, it would accomplish a lot of what is being mentioned. So the idea isn't far fetched at all, but to make it viable in game the developer has to put incentives in it. With enough incentives, almost any form of game play will become more appealing to the players. That said, I don't expect them to remove dungeon finder, as opposed to adding other incentives and game play options to get folks back into the world. In fact, more than anything, allied races is exactly the kind of thing I see as being created to get folks back into leveling from a low level and justification to spend time and resources on old leveling content.

However, as with anything else, all those changes cumulative, including scaling, CRZ, sharding, world quests and other kinds of content will further change WOW from being farther and farther from the old original social based game it was before. But that is to be expected. Things evolve and the game developer is going to take all of that into account as part of building new features. The old game didn't need as many incentives because the original design of the world was "immersive" and appealing in and of itself as its own form of "reward". But we are long past that now. BfA will be moving the level cap to twice that of vanilla the amount of continents, zones and dungeons in game is HUGE. There is a whole lot of content for people to do, even old content for many reasons, but as a max level character most of this is soloable. So you need gimmicks and incentives to push people back into a more "social" form of game play and to want to spend more time in leveling old content.

[Kazgrel]

I'm confused by this thread. You know you can skip queing for a dungeon completely. It's optional. If you want to quest without heirlooms, do it. I've been leveling an alt recently only doing quests and I've been staying on par with each zone. So far he's already 74.

B-but optimal > optional! It even shows up first in the dictionary! /s