Thrall's Appointment of Garrosh to Warchief

[Thrall, son of Durotan]

I find it weird that people still discuss Garrosh's personality and how he is taking a 180 turn all the time.
To me it seems like people WANT to find something new and bad about him so they can throw sh*t at him.
Now he admits he feel like he is not truly ready for leadership and the community burned down their fuse before they managed to get to the next sentence.

Is it so hard to actually see his progression in life instead of sitting there whining about everything Blizzard is trying to do with him to improve him?

Sure we all love the noble, honorable new orcs with shamanism and such, but you still gotta remember they are orcs, so deep inside they have a raging berserker stirring.
Its kinda like a problematic dog, sometimes it is as fluffy and cozy as can be, but other times it may strike.
And this is what happened to Garrosh, now he is improving by every passing day.

[Mortis Darkskull]

I find it weird that people still discuss Garrosh's personality and how he is taking a 180 turn all the time.
To me it seems like people WANT to find something new and bad about him so they can throw sh*t at him.
Now he admits he feel like he is not truly ready for leadership and the community burned down their fuse before they managed to get to the next sentence.

Is it so hard to actually see his progression in life instead of sitting there whining about everything Blizzard is trying to do with him to improve him?

Sure we all love the noble, honorable new orcs with shamanism and such, but you still gotta remember they are orcs, so deep inside they have a raging berserker stirring.
Its kinda like a problematic dog, sometimes it is as fluffy and cozy as can be, but other times it may strike.
And this is what happened to Garrosh, now he is improving by every passing day.

the problem is that since garrosh is an uncorrupted orc, he shouldn't have a raging berserker nothing... I'm not saying he should be a pacifist like thrall (who is a corrupted orc... just look at his green skin), but he shouldn't be so bloodlusty...

and just look at his new face... for an uncorrupted orc, he kinda looks like a full demon, doesn't he??? want my opinion??? new garrosh is just plain weird...

[Oneirophobia]

While you might have a point... when has Garrosh ever been the kind of person who chooses to be discrete instead of saying what he feels? He certainly hasn't cared about telling off Thrall throughout WotLK. It is much more likely that the character's relationship with Thrall is more complex than friend or rival. Its more likely that Garrosh genuinely means what he says rather than being some deceptive master manipulator that he's never been described as.

He is saying what he feels. Hes quite content hes getting Warchief. He sticks it to Vol'jin (a comment which he could have otherwise kept to himself because it really wasn't important considering they were there for his 'crowning' if you will) almost out of nowhere, as the thought dances into his head. Hes clearly, clearly saying what he feels.
I'm just saying, hes not a frothing ragemonster at the moment because hes getting what he wants. If he was angry and outbursty as usual it would make no sense, this is a happy occasion for him.

Eitrigg has been a leading adviser in the Warchief's court for most of the new Horde's existence.

I know. His NPC representation has done nothing but say (I recall) maybe 2 lines during the Wrath Gate event since the start of vanilla.
Saurfang is more popular, and has been involved in recent events, yet is left out of the list. I'm sure there are behind the scenes involvement in day-to-day running Orgimmar things, but really, they've ignored his character since vanilla WoW, why are they bothering with a character most people will be weirded out in seeing, over Saurfang? Thats all that was about.
Only thing that comes to mind is maybe Blizzard wants to include other characters instead of just Saurfang all the time.

Try "not at all Garrosh's fault". Lol, Cairne gets poisoned by tauren insurgents who have been plotting their sh*t since before Garrosh joined the Horde, and people still try to pin blame on Garrosh for being an unwitting, innocent part of it. If it had been Garrosh who challenged Cairne to the duel, that might have a leg to stand on, but its the other way around.

I know of the poison, I talked about it in the response you quoted. Did you miss that part? I acknowledge the poison killed him. What I was contesting was that Garrosh is some kind of victim in this. Yeah, he gets blamed for it, but really, he dueled an old, OLD man, a close friend of Thrall's, a deeply respected member of the Horde, and one of his advisers.
I'm curious as to what they dueled over. People keep saying "OH I'm sure Cairne started it all, he was prolly totally unaware that Garrosh was the legit Warcheif and was like 'NO U I WAN B WARCHEF' and then dueled him and died. Silly cows. Poor Garrosh had no choice and hes such a poor vicim omg. " I'm sure it wasn't like that at all. Cairne probably 'advised' Garrosh in a way that Garrosh didn't particularly approve of, went into one of his trademark frothing rages, and dueled Cairne. Cairne is poisoned, enters the duel, and dies. I'm not sure why people are assuming Thrall went "lol heres warcheif Garrosh. Advisers are.. uh.. Cairne, Vol'jin and... That lvl 20 who isn't involved enough lately. yeah. Them." And then didn't tell Cairne Garrosh was the Warcheif and that he was the adviser, to make it that situation people keep mentioning, where Cairne is like LOLWUT ATTACKLOL and Garrosh is forced to accept. Seems very out of character for Cairne to just jump at Garrosh like it was being suggested.

{quote]I don't see how being framed for the death of one of the Horde's most important leaders in the middle of an apocalypse-war combo meal is much convenient for a guy who has just come into office. Nor do I see how its convenient to have one of your vassals withdraw his support from you and threaten to kill you in the middle of said apocalypse-war combo meal.[/quote]
I'm not sure he was framed for long, wasn't it established like right after that Cairne's death was Megatha's doing? That couldn't have lasted long.
And while I agree that pissing off Vol'jin is a bad idea, it is convenient because you have two people who opposed you and had imput on your rule gone.
Look at it this way. People responsible for Warcheif duties/control: Garrosh, with imput from Vol'jin, Cairne, Eitrigg.
People responsible for Warcheif duties/control: Garrosh, Eitrigg.
I'm seeing this as a "Two advisers down, one to go." The adivsers were sort of, at least I'm intrepreting it this way, as "This is how Thrall would want this" guys, making sure Garrosh does what Thrall wants/wanted/will want to see when he comes back. Garrosh doesn't want/need help ruling as Warcheif, and he certainly doesn't want to be told what to do by the friends of Thrall.

Incorrect. The duel they fought in Orgrimmar was a simple duel fought over an insult (which, according to the comics, Thrall used to bait Garrosh). At no point was it ever even implied that it is a duel to the death. At no point was it specified as being a duel for the position of Warchief.

Hasn't read comics.
Alsooo I wasn't sure whether or not it was a fight to the death. Thats my bad.
And yes, it wasn't specified, but it did start with "Well if I was warchief we'd go to war right now instead of wasting time deliberating."
Followed by Thrall reminding Garrosh not to be too much like his father, which Garrosh retorts with a "lol well someone has to be like their dad, cause you're no son of Durotan" followed by duel. So I was assuming after the duel, Garrosh would have asserted its his right to be leader now that hes proven himself stronger than Thrall. Whether or not he'd be supported is an entirely different cup of tea.

[Thrall, son of Durotan]

You can almost say he adapted to the green orcs, atleast thats how I see it.
TBC = Passive.
WotLK = Meets a new society of orcs that act different from what he have known, since he comes from a rather peacefull clan in Outlands that have not much choice but to take beating from the broken.
So when he the comes to Azeroth to see a more brutish kind of orc than he is used to, he tries to adapt to his new surroundings, and instead of doing it gradually he goes from 0 to 100 on the rage meter in a single counter.
But now as Cataclysm arrives he is adapting the right way, taking it gradually towards a true noble and honorable orc.

This is a orc I have alot interested in.
And I have to agree, his face makes him a little more derpish demon but the lore around him is interesting non the less.

[Alraml]

I cannot overstate my satisfaction. Have some cake.

Woot my first internet cake :P

[Oneirophobia]

I find it weird that people still discuss Garrosh's personality and how he is taking a 180 turn all the time.
To me it seems like people WANT to find something new and bad about him so they can throw sh*t at him.
Now he admits he feel like he is not truly ready for leadership and the community burned down their fuse before they managed to get to the next sentence.

Is it so hard to actually see his progression in life instead of sitting there whining about everything Blizzard is trying to do with him to improve him?

Sure we all love the noble, honorable new orcs with shamanism and such, but you still gotta remember they are orcs, so deep inside they have a raging berserker stirring.
Its kinda like a problematic dog, sometimes it is as fluffy and cozy as can be, but other times it may strike.
And this is what happened to Garrosh, now he is improving by every passing day.

They shouldn't really be raging berserkers if they've never been corrupted by demon blood.
However, you do get me thinking:
Maybe blizzard was aware of the dislike of Garrosh being a dick and decided to change him. Perhaps this is the reason for the 180 in personality; its not that he has alterior motives or that hes on new meds, its that blizz wants him to have a fanbase and followers. Perhaps the death of Cairne and the dislike of Vol'jin are just metaphors for "You judged him too quickly, see, hes not really that baaad" from blizz.

[Sarog]

They shouldn't really be raging berserkers if they've never been corrupted by demon blood.

Why not? The orcs were always a primitive warrior society. An idealized, primitive warrior society, but a primitive warrior society nonetheless. The idea that orcs were peaceful conflict-free hippies before the corruption is a fallacy. The corruption magnified their violence and bloodthirst, and was used to direct them into a a coalition of soldiers... but there is more than enough evidence in lore that suggests the orcs had plenty raging berserkers among them way before the corruption.

The mag'har - unlike other orcs - are entirely 100% guilt free. It makes sense that they should act in a confident, brash way (which seems to be the norm among them in beta) rather than following teachings of self-control and moderation that Thrall taught to the orcs in Azeroth while under the shadow of soul-crushing guilt.

---------- Post added 2010-09-22 at 10:27 PM ----------

Saurfang is more popular, and has been involved in recent events, yet is left out of the list. I'm sure there are behind the scenes involvement in day-to-day running Orgimmar things, but really, they've ignored his character since vanilla WoW, why are they bothering with a character most people will be weirded out in seeing, over Saurfang?

Saurfang is probably otherwise occupied. We just don't know how.

I know of the poison, I talked about it in the response you quoted. Did you miss that part? I acknowledge the poison killed him. What I was contesting was that Garrosh is some kind of victim in this. Yeah, he gets blamed for it, but really, he dueled an old, OLD man, a close friend of Thrall's, a deeply respected member of the Horde, and one of his advisers.
I'm curious as to what they dueled over. People keep saying "OH I'm sure Cairne started it all, he was prolly totally unaware that Garrosh was the legit Warcheif and was like 'NO U I WAN B WARCHEF' and then dueled him and died. Silly cows. Poor Garrosh had no choice and hes such a poor vicim omg. " I'm sure it wasn't like that at all. Cairne probably 'advised' Garrosh in a way that Garrosh didn't particularly approve of, went into one of his trademark frothing rages, and dueled Cairne. Cairne is poisoned, enters the duel, and dies. I'm not sure why people are assuming Thrall went "lol heres warcheif Garrosh. Advisers are.. uh.. Cairne, Vol'jin and... That lvl 20 who isn't involved enough lately. yeah. Them." And then didn't tell Cairne Garrosh was the Warcheif and that he was the adviser, to make it that situation people keep mentioning, where Cairne is like LOLWUT ATTACKLOL and Garrosh is forced to accept. Seems very out of character for Cairne to just jump at Garrosh like it was being suggested.

The thing is... you are basing your condemnations of Garrosh here - in your earlier statement of blaming him partially for Cairne's death - entirely on a fiction within your own mind. A possible one. Maybe a probable one. But, atm, an insubstantial one. We know there is a duel. The information commonly leaked is that Cairne challenged Garrosh, but that event has not been explicitly implemented yet. If the eventual implementation of things are different in such a way that things are Garrosh's fault... then things will be Garrosh's fault. But, in the common understanding of how events progress, that is simply not the case. If that understanding is proven false, then so be it. But currently you have no concrete grounds to argue Garrosh's fault outside of predictions constructed within your own mind.

[Porimlys]

I don't see these alleged personality changes...

[catablitz]

I prefer a badass warchief ( WAR + chief) than someone like a mister perfect persona that spreads the word of compassion and descency like a priest in church.

I suspect as well that the reason for his less bloodthirsty profile is due to the community alliance (mostly) fanboism hate. I never understood why the hate for Garrosh began in first place.

However after reading some posts here I began to understand the mentality of some posters: someone stated that Garrosh arguing with Vol'jin about the latter's lack of activity in northrend characterises the former as a 'dick'... Really mate? Did Garrosh say someting incorrect? Noone should be offended by truth. We talk about the Horde here not the 'politically correct' alliance morals.

This example reveals the lack of comprehension skills, the prejudice over a character and intelligence brainwashed by hippy like pseudomoral propaganda about what is good and bad , right or wrong.

Garrosh and Sylvanas are the first major characters that have taken distance from the aforementioned stereotype of 'the good guy' defined by IRL measures about social behaviour in urban democracies.

I'd take one of them anyday instead of Velen that suggested to flee after an earthquake, instead of an inactive Lorth'someone.

The theme of 'there are 2 enemies that need to work together against a common threat' is getting boring.
We are at war and as so, everything is allowed and the strongest survives.

[gabrield]

Just a quick point on the Maghar Orcs and bloodlust issue.

Saurfangs son in Nagrand has a moment of bloodlust in the "son is like the father" quest line. So it's not exclusively "green orcs" who get it.

[areoborg]

Also your honest opinion is wrong, because even if Garrosh did want Thrall out of the picture, well just take a look at him, he wouldn't even consider working with the alliance to make that happen, it was more of a "oh...our enemies assassin's managed to kidnap Thrall....THRALL of all people"

Going by the dialog in the Twilight Highlands airship ride, Garrosh wants to conquer the whole of Azeroth, instead of merely being content to share it with the Alliance. If that's the case, then sooner or later, he's going to have to go to war against the Alliance.

As has been pointed out in this thread, there are two major factions in the Horde: the hotheads like Garrosh who want to go out there and bring anyone who dares oppose them to their knees (or in a grave), and the ones who are willing to have peace with the Alliance, like Thrall. To go to war and win so going to need both sides working together.

And so, all that needs to happen is someone leaks some juicy information about a VERY important transport who's safe passage is vital to the Horde, and hope the Alliance takes the bait (which they did). Thrall's out of the picture, and there is all the justification in the world to unite the Horde against the Alliance in open war.

[Haven]

They shouldn't really be raging berserkers if they've never been corrupted by demon blood.

Their innate potential and bloodlust is the reason the Legion chose to corrupt them in the first place. The Legion wouldn't try to create a war machine out of hippies.

[willjones410]

Going by the dialog in the Twilight Highlands airship ride, Garrosh wants to conquer the whole of Azeroth, instead of merely being content to share it with the Alliance. If that's the case, then sooner or later, he's going to have to go to war against the Alliance.

As has been pointed out in this thread, there are two major factions in the Horde: the hotheads like Garrosh who want to go out there and bring anyone who dares oppose them to their knees (or in a grave), and the ones who are willing to have peace with the Alliance, like Thrall. To go to war and win so going to need both sides working together.

And so, all that needs to happen is someone leaks some juicy information about a VERY important transport who's safe passage is vital to the Horde, and hope the Alliance takes the bait (which they did). Thrall's out of the picture, and there is all the justification in the world to unite the Horde against the Alliance in open war.

I wonder who it was who advised Garrosh to make such a move (assuming he actually did), because that seems a little complicated for him to think up himself. Would we seriously expect to believe he can concoct political strategies like that himself and then show how much of an idiot he can be by sending away a fighter escort screen to attack Alliance, leaving zeps to get eaten by twilight drakes? He had to have had help making those moves. It sure as hell wasn't Cairne, Vol'jin, or Eitrigg either. So who's his new advisors?

[PopeJamal]

Incorrect. The duel they fought in Orgrimmar was a simple duel fought over an insult (which, according to the comics, Thrall used to bait Garrosh). At no point was it ever even implied that it is a duel to the death. At no point was it specified as being a duel for the position of Warchief.

As part of a primitive/honor based society like the Horde, I don't think you can lose a duel as the Warchief and NOT jeopardize your seat at the top of the pyramid. Sure, it might not have been stated formally, but I'm sure it was understood.

---------- Post added 2010-09-22 at 11:48 PM ----------

I prefer a badass warchief ( WAR + chief) than someone like a mister perfect persona that spreads the word of compassion and descency like a priest in church.

I suspect as well that the reason for his less bloodthirsty profile is due to the community alliance (mostly) fanboism hate. I never understood why the hate for Garrosh began in first place.

However after reading some posts here I began to understand the mentality of some posters: someone stated that Garrosh arguing with Vol'jin about the latter's lack of activity in northrend characterises the former as a 'dick'... Really mate? Did Garrosh say someting incorrect? Noone should be offended by truth. We talk about the Horde here not the 'politically correct' alliance morals.

This example reveals the lack of comprehension skills, the prejudice over a character and intelligence brainwashed by hippy like pseudomoral propaganda about what is good and bad , right or wrong.

Garrosh and Sylvanas are the first major characters that have taken distance from the aforementioned stereotype of 'the good guy' defined by IRL measures about social behaviour in urban democracies.

I'd take one of them anyday instead of Velen that suggested to flee after an earthquake, instead of an inactive Lorth'someone.

The theme of 'there are 2 enemies that need to work together against a common threat' is getting boring.
We are at war and as so, everything is allowed and the strongest survives.

Wow, that was completely out of left field. It's always uncomfortable when people start to involve their RL personal politics in discussions like this.

More on-topic, there are two lines of thinking in the Horde (this was mentioned earlier by someone else):

Old School Horde: "Wow, we really messed up, did alot of horrible things in the past, and hurt alot of people in the process. Things aren't always clearly right or wrong, and the world is a complicated, nuanced place, where..."

New School Horde: "For the Horde! Let's kick some ass!"

Garrosh is the poster-boy for the New School Horde. He's basically of the opinion: "Let's go kick as much ass as we can, 24/7 or GTFO!" We see how successful that attitude was in past wars, even WITH the support of the Burning Legion. I'm sure it's just as likely to ultimately fail this time as well.

[Phenomina]

If I remember correctly, Cairne had challenged Garrosh to an honorable duel, if anything it's Cairnes own fault for wanting to duel somebody at his age. Knowing Garrosh, he wouldn't back down from a duel.. Now we can argue about this all night, or you can accept the fact that it was Magathas doing and Garrosh is innocent as he had not known that Cairne was poisoned.

It was a honerable duel I have never stated otherwise, however honerable or not it wasn't a pillow fight and Garrosh would have physically hurt Cairne. Did Garrosh know he was poisoned? Probably not... that doesn't mean that the physical wounds Garrosh inflicted did not partially contribute to his death.

1) Cairne challenges Garrosh for leadership of the Horde, if Garrosh had denied the duel he would have lost all his credibility in Orc society, Garrosh did not murder or even kill Cairne since it was not a duel to the death and Cairne dies from Magatha's poisoning

2) The most likley cause is that Cairne does not see Garrosh as having legitimately become Warchief, there were no representatives of Thunder Bluff in Grommash Hold during the appointment so it is perfectly logical that Cairne sees Garrosh as Warchief as unjustified since his appointment was only agreed upon by 2/5 races of the Horde (technically 3, the BE ambassador is there in the back but she says nothing)

1) Do we know that Cairne challenged him for leadership? Especially after we have seen Thrall refer to Cainre as an advisor for Garrosh. Garrosh also never really had much credibility within the Horde he's been the butt of there jokes for 2 years now...

2)Cairne more then anyone would respect Thrall's decision, I'm fairly sure it was something Garrosh did that provoked the duel. Tauren have no love loss for Foraken or BE's so I doubt he would have been overly concerned they were not present for the meeting.

[Rainec]

...well then... who the hell is eitrigg?

some guy from UC?

[Phenomina]

...well then... who the hell is eitrigg?

some guy from UC?

One of a few respectful Orc's

[willjones410]

One of a few respectful Orc's

Who sadly did not get nearly the amount of attention that he should have got in WotLK.

[thilicen]

Thrall returns after his gap year at the Maelstrom

Thrall: So Garrosh, how's the Horde doing?

Garrosh: Uhhhh, well Cairne is dead. Sylvanas is corrupting everything within 100 miles of herself and Vol'jin has threatened to murder me..... soooooo pretty good

Thrall: What about Lor'thremar?

Garrosh: Who?

You... You just.. You.. Thank you for that. [Cake]

[Conf]

thrall returns after his gap year at the maelstrom

thrall: So garrosh, how's the horde doing?

Garrosh: Uhhhh, well cairne is dead. Sylvanas is corrupting everything within 100 miles of herself and vol'jin has threatened to murder me..... Soooooo pretty good

thrall: What about lor'thremar?

Garrosh: Who?

lol.