So what does that "locate rogues" hunterbook mean?

[Verain]

Fellow rogues, we are complaining in the wrong forum. We need to complain over in the official ones and maybe Blizz will see why this is such a horrible decision.

We know from experience that they sometimes read the class forums over there, and sometimes read them over here. More importantly, I made this thread to ask about whether this book was gonna be an issue, and I think it will be. I tweeted Holinka, and AFAIK he hasn't replied or cared yet. I'm not interested in spamming a discussion forum with crap, I'm much happier saying my piece. The game has had MANY balance issues and several design problems over the years, and no one's experience is improved by hysterical players.

But definitely tweet Holinka, and if you feel like it, make a thread in the official forums. The moderation there is so poor that it's pretty much not worth my time, but it could be worth yours? It's worth letting them know that rogues don't want this kind of bullshit, and what it gives hunters is the lulz, and what it takes away from rogues is the entire meaning of stealth, and the entire reason to pick the class. That's worth everyone standing up and saying. Once.


When you are standing around stealthed on your druid in that place, you'll feel like you should in stealth- a careful assassin or a stealther waiting for the correct moment to project force for your faction. When you are stealthed on your rogue, you'll know you are the worst guy for that job, because a shadowmelded warrior (not rogue), a camoed hunter, or a prowling cat are all much better at your only job.

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100% invisible? Last time i checked, there were multiple way to make me visible. Me doing anything besides walking and pickpocketing one of these.

Of course the stealth has counterplay. But it doesn't have:

1- A shimmer effect to reveal your position.
2- A short duration with a long cooldown (20 seconds of stealth every 30 seconds).
3- A need to stay near shadows, structures, or undergrowth (you can stealth in an open field)
4- A need to stealth at night (you can stealth at high noon in plain sight)
5- Physical signs of your progress (footprints, waving grass).




There's ways to do stealth without using WoW's model, but in those games stealth is much weaker, and stealth is a bonus, not a necessity. WoW's rogues need stealth and are designed around it.

[ymirsson]

Of course the stealth has counterplay. But it doesn't have:

1- A shimmer effect to reveal your position.
2- A short duration with a long cooldown (20 seconds of stealth every 30 seconds).
3- A need to stay near shadows, structures, or undergrowth (you can stealth in an open field)
4- A need to stealth at night (you can stealth at high noon in plain sight)
5- Physical signs of your progress (footprints, waving grass).




There's ways to do stealth without using WoW's model, but in those games stealth is much weaker, and stealth is a bonus, not a necessity. WoW's rogues need stealth and are designed around it.

You're right, though i was talking about duration confined by actions, not visibility.

[Venaliter]

As Hitei says, that's bullshit. There's no such thing as a "counterclass".

Check your facts. Dead wrong.

[ymirsson]

Check your facts. Dead wrong.

So, Sherlock, let's hear your facts then.Which classes counter which ones and why?

[Venaliter]

It's not rocket science. Certain classes have advantages, some decidedly, against other classes, like being immune to that type of CC, being able to remove debuffs, being able to lockdown casts, being able to destealth. Some time the advantage can be overcome with skill, sometimes with gear, sometimes it takes both...and sometimes it just can't be.

[ymirsson]

It's not rocket science. Certain classes have advantages, some decidedly, against other classes, like being immune to that type of CC, being able to remove debuffs, being able to lockdown casts, being able to destealth. Some time the advantage can be overcome with skill, sometimes with gear, sometimes it takes both...and sometimes it just can't be.

So, you have no clue and resort to useless generalizations?

[Cheerbleeder]

If they are going to allow hunters to see rogues in stealth then they better balance the game and give back the ability to rogue's to dismantle a warrior's bladestorm!

[Venaliter]

So, you have no clue and resort to useless generalizations?

Rather then go through the list, I thought I'd just point you in the right direction. With 11 classes, and 3 specs, not all having the same strengths weaknesses, it's simply not practical to give you a complete rundown.

I'll just requote my post and hope you get there on your own. It may take awhile.

It's not rocket science. Certain classes have advantages, some decidedly, against other classes, like being immune to that type of CC, being able to remove debuffs, being able to lockdown casts, being able to destealth. Some time the advantage can be overcome with skill, sometimes with gear, sometimes it takes both...and sometimes it just can't be.

[ymirsson]

What you describe is the fact that some specs and some skills are better equipped and designed to handle some other classes' skills then others. But the term "counterclass" infers something more encompassing then "i can kick them heals, durr"

[SynergyDarkstar]

It's not rocket science. Certain classes have advantages, some decidedly, against other classes, like being immune to that type of CC, being able to remove debuffs, being able to lockdown casts, being able to destealth. Some time the advantage can be overcome with skill, sometimes with gear, sometimes it takes both...and sometimes it just can't be.

I'm not much of a PvPer, but: what class/spec is immune to any particular type of CC that another class is not?

[Kael]

What you describe is the fact that some specs and some skills are better equipped and designed to handle some other classes' skills then others. But the term "counterclass" infers something more encompassing then "i can kick them heals, durr"

Indeed. Please back up your assertions rather than insulting other posters, Venaliter. There are many small class advantages over other classes which were previously gargantuan, but are now largely neutered. In high play, any class can beat any other, advantages aside. We're not back in the "haha I evis'd a clothie" days or seeing druids replace faerie fire with "that one poison from the rogue poison quest that lasts for 7 days and might not exist anymore" - but this book is pretty close, when nothing else is.

If you want to argue against that, try arguing against it.

[Verain]

Check your facts. Dead wrong.

Devs have stated otherwise since vanilla. "counterclass" concept also shows up as bankrupt in arenas, where class matchups that might be poor that season (say, S2 rogue could beat S2 lock) don't hold true at all in similar places (say, S2 rogue/druid had no game against S2 lock/druid).

So no, my facts are fine.

Rather then go through the list, I thought I'd just point you in the right direction.

You're full of it. The fact of the matter is, if one class edges another in solo, that's just a result of the balancing in the rest of the game- CERTAINLY no class is designed to "counter" another. Hunters are definitely not designed to "counter" rogues.

Go fucking tweet Holinka and get the answer straight from his mouth if you don't fucking believe me.

[SilkDath]

I am still unclear on what this book is, is it a tracking spell or can they literally see us like we aren't in stealth? If it is the latter then that is just really bad design.

[Verain]

A lot of us are unclear about the rules in this warzone, and in fairness, many of them have been in flux.

Right now, if you can track someone, they appear on your minimap, but there's restrictions. For instance, track humanoids will put you with a green or red dot on the hunter map, but if you are stealthed, the dot won't appear unless the hunter detects you. Track hidden will do the same thing, AND gives the hunter a big +detection boost (+6 levels)- this is one of many reasons why it can be perilous to open on a hunter, and why hunters are better at stealth than rogues (their passive +detect is far larger than our passive +stealth, and the loss of shadow walk leaves us with no skill based out).


Everyone in this thread has been assuming (myself included) that this book will mark you on their map, even if you are stealthed. We've been assuming this because, if it didn't do that, it wouldn't even be worthwhile as an item (hunters can already track humanoids and hidden, and turning this book on would not change that).


No one is assuming it will make you visible to a hunter, but if you are on the map, you are not useful as a stealther. It's especially egregious if hunters and cats become the best choices for scouts and stealthing in general, with rogues relegated to "fragile warrior" with the front troops.

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Refreshed OP- this book is datamined garbage.

Holinka tweeted:
"If this is about a datamined book, that was made but isn't actually in the game."

I'm not going to lie, this was seriously gamebreaking for me. I don't like people who threaten to quit over thing X, but I was pretty sure I wasn't going to play the game at all during WoD because of this book. I know that a decent amount of the pvp gearing is tied to Ashran, and not having stealth was going to pretty much break the class in a big part of pvp.


Whew.

[Kael]

Can't find this tweet. Post a link so I can close this down, please?

edit: thanks, I was having a moment.

[Verain]

I edited my OP with it this morning :P

https://twitter.com/holinka/status/502248269758492672



Also, further confirmation:

https://twitter.com/holinka/status/502484339561889792