Newest patch notes and casting-on-the-move

[Fyla]

That probably is one of the few valid points anyone made, though movement is not much fun for other casters either.

Well i can only talk from a Mages perspective but i'm not really annoyed by movement on that toon. Why should i? casting scorch works perfectly fine, it can procc Hot streak so it never was that much of a dps loss (dont know lvl 100 numbers, but shouldnt be that bad), as Frost Mage i cant bother less with movement cause of 3 stacks ice floes, also thousand and thousands proccs of doom (Brainfreeze/FoF). Had about 3 Hours Garrosh Mythic wiping with a rnd group yesterday on my Mage first time playing that toon after 6.0 release in raid and i really never had a problem with movement, garrosh is not movement heavy, but shifting out for weapons etc was never a problem cause i just needed to pool for 1 stack of bf and fof and had not to worry about anything. On my warlock i have to place a about 2 RoF on different weapons (single target!!!-.-) each time i have to move for that god damn weapon, luckily i can port back in so only one walk of rain per weapon.

I have no idea how this relates to this discussion, but 1% seems like a reasonable number to you? This game is going to disappoint you.

It relates in that point that i dont have a problem to be the last one on the charts as long as the delta is small enough (1%), to achieve that goal is again not what i'm paid for (and nothing i'm at this exact moment capable of). It relates to your claim, that buffing warlocks cast on move abilitys would just bring them back over the top what is the truth behind our claims for a better gameplay.


@wobblucy
sure, using the portal well is part of being a good warlock, but there are to many effects that prevent good use of our single best ability to relocate ourselves.
Take siegecrafter for instance
"oh you took time to place your portal? yeah well, someone pulled me so i'm just gonna remove all portals for good"
"oh you really choose a nice spot for your portal, to bad there's fire/sawblade/missile/whatever now"
.
.
.

in the end it is a portal, it can be placed beforehand but most bosses in suo tend to place funny things over wl ports to prevent their usage or force us to relocate them which is a huge dps loss (have to move to a usefull position, place it, move back) so in most cases there just is no portal
immerseus: sha-puddle
protectors: poison (but why would one need a portal here?)
amalgam: nothing \o/ (but most raids just reposition the whole group when the slicer comes close, so no use for the portal as slicer is not predictable -.-)
sha: yeah, perfect for prisions, indeed
galakras: what would i need a portal for here? maybe attacking the first mobs in the left tower, depends on tactic
juggernaut: nice for the knock back but theres a wall behind me, using one of my cast while moving casts while i'm on the fly should be more usef... oh wait .. nah better place a rain of fire
shamans: hey look a portal, lets place some purple crap over it
and so on .. i'm sure you all know the tactics for yourself

dont get me wrong
portal is a really nice little toy, in pvp its superior but in pve i would gladly exchange it with blink or even disengage
there are just far to much unpredictable things that render our portal useless or force us to relocate it from what was a perfect spot.

[Deleted]

Wow, things sure blew up in here.

Can I just say you seem to be missing the elephant in the room? I don't know about others, but I'm far less bothered by doing more or less damage on the move, numerically that's not too important to me as long as we're balanced, overall, to be competitive. If that means doing great damage while stationary and bad damage on the move, or being half decent across the board, I really don't mind. Hell, I don't mind being tuned below other people.

What does bother me is feeling like I'm not playing the game while moving. Not having Fun while moving. Feeling that when I'm forced to move, which is regularly the case in a raid environment - you rarely have to move because you explicitly fucked up (and if you do, then that's your bad), that I've just royally fucked up on a boss interupt mechanic and been locked out of casting.
What abilities do that in a raid environment? Plenty. Raids regularly have interupts that you time casts around, and failing to do so locks you out of the school. Getting hit by these is the sign of bad play, and feels punishing, but playing properly avoids it.

Right now, movement feels like you fucked up, because you have very little to cast and feel like you're contributing.

Fel Flame fixes that, even when tuned incredibly low like it was in Cataclysm - it was below dot refreshes and life taps, it was absolute rock bottom in the pirority list, but it made you feel like you were still part of the fight and not silenced.

That's the problem with warlock movement, not numbers. Anyone who complains about numbers is just wasting time, because the class will eventually end up balanced to be competitive and then we'll have a fun time of Devs shutting down any request for something to press while moving as "oh no you just want to be overpowered, you're doing fine damage!", when that's really not a big problem. The class / spec feeling like arse is.

[Shamran]

Thanks for your response. You do raise a few valid points, even if you do strike a somewhat antagonistic tone. But fair enough. For one thing, I can see that the initial post is a bit vague when it comes to what the evaluation specifically concerns. That has, however, been remedied countless times in the various discussions about mobility that followed both in this thread and a few others. Also, it wasn’t that vague. It does initially state that it’s about “options” to deal damage while moving. And with this, we approach the first of your primary misconceptions:

You have managed to overlook that the mobility discussion both here, and in other threads, isn’t about numerical damage output or carrying out a perfect dps rotation while moving. A few examples:

Do these caster specs suffer less of a dps loss from movement than the 3 specs of warlock?
Answer: you have no idea.

About the specific damage output differences between classes and specs on movement heavy fights in an expansion that hasn’t been released nor finally tuned yet? No. Do you? Also, not the point of the post.

Still waiting for you to show that warlocks do less damage while moving than other classes, though I'm worried it won't happen.

Never said I would.

The vast majority of spells you listed really have nothing to do with movement, many are a dps loss if you pool procs or charges or hold off on cooldown abilities for movement periods. Some are even a dps loss to cast while moving under normal circumstances.

That’s… interesting. Still not the point of the post.

Here is where I agree with you, it is a nerf to warlocks and shamans, the two casters that could perform their ideal dps rotation while moving for a majority of a fight in MoP

Yeah… carrying out an ideal dps rotation still isn’t the point of the post.

An AFK warlock's pet does more dps than a mage spamming scorch, but for some reason you think the mage has it better?

Um, no. And the damage output as a number still isn’t the point of the post.

The "unconditional" spells that you list as dps increases are mostly worse than the passive dps gain from having a pet, and [always?] worse when considering periodic damage + pet.

I never listed them as dps increases. That’s something you called them. I listed them as options “to cast and deal damage on the move”. Are you starting the grasp the difference?

There are several things you need to consider if you want to compare mobility dps

I didn’t. If I did, I would have used, you know, numbers.

You're going to advocate adding a dps ability that will increase dps while moving without providing a shred of evidence that warlocks do less dps on the move?

Again, no. But I can see where you’d have problems missing the most points of the OP and the mobility discussion.

See, what others have generally managed to take to heart, and what you, along with most others who had their epeen-pride hurt during MoP, failed to comprehend, is that the OP, and the mobility discussion in its entirety, has little to do with running the meters. As been stated several times, damage is simply a matter of tuning. To overstate that particular point:

If it was only about competitive damage, you could solve the problem by tuning. In the extreme:

"Warlocks are now the only class without a "toggle run" function. Additionally, we've removed the following abilities: Conflagrate, Rain of Fire and Shadowburn. We realize that this change might impair Destruction Warlocks in terms of doing competitive damage, so, in turn, Chaos Bolt now does a gazillion, floppity-jillion damage".

Problem solved: Warlocks do competitive damage even if they can't run or cast anything while moving. But likely, it wouldn't be particularly engaging or immersive to play a Warlock like that.

Damage output isn’t the issue. Options are the issue. The options you have at your disposal to actively deal damage when you have to move. A worthwhile button to push. As put elsewhere:

To many, that in and of itself is engaging gameplay. That there is an ability, like Fel Flame, to use when you have to move so you still feel like you're using your GCDs to actively contribute to your overall performance, even if it's far from an optimal dps rotation - which wouldn't really be reasonable and not what anyone's asking for.

To that end:

You are now calling it damage-while-moving toolkits, the quote was for "damage while moving.

Well, actually no. It wasn’t. To be accurate, it was for ability to deal damage while moving. And even more accurately, I initially called it “options” to deal damage while moving which I use synonymously with damage-while-moving toolkit. I’ve also shorthanded it in a number of other ways, like “damage-on-the-move options” or damage-on-the-move abilities”. But I certainly hope that syntax and semantics isn’t why you yourself posted the proverbial wall of text. Also, again, the post never has been, nor could it be, about the difference in damage output on movement heavy fights from on class or spec to the other. On the contrary, statements like the following has often been made:

Have you not gotten the point of the thread still?
"It's not an evaluation of how to optimize your damage on the move. It's an evaluation of what toolkits each ranged class and spec has available while moving. Often, of course, those two things will interact." - Source

As such, the criticism you’re trying to get across:

“Hey stupid OP guy! Blizzard states they want reduce “damage while moving” for all casters, and you say that’s incorrect, but you haven’t proved that Warlocks will actually deal less damage than other casters on movement heavy fights”.

… pretty much bends in neon, that you haven’t understood what the post, or the mobility discussion, is about.

But fair enough. Let’s follow the logic you so ineffectually seek to employ: That Blizzard merely say that they will reduce “damage on the move” for all casters, but nothing of how they will do it, and that the points raised in the OP are therefore off the mark. Right, so let us, instead, look at what they *have* done:

Removed a number of instant casts and cast-on-the-move abilities from Warlocks and Shamans, while giving other classes more of those.
And that, not damage output differences on movement heavy fights in WoD, is what the OP and the mobility discussion is about.

Moving along to the second of your primary misconceptions about the purpose of the post:

Were you surprised by the disparity between caster mobility in MoP as well?

Not so much, no. Partly because the OP and the entire mobility discussions has to do with changes coming in WoD and, also, Blizzard didn’t state that everyone’s options to deal damage on the move would be reduced going into MoP.

See, that was the other point of the post – to actually investigate whether or not what Blizzard actually stated was correct.

Yes, you are quite the tooltip detective.

Why, thank you! :-)

With your primary misconceptions commented on, here's to the rest of your drivel:

This entire post is about as useful as someone comparing the tooltips between chaos bolt and fireball.

It’s a relief to see that, in spite of pronounced miscomprehension, you did manage to get at least a little of what the post was about.

Your argument has now become that you don't have something to press. If you do as much damage as the other classes while moving without pressing anything and you add an ability to press while moving what happens?

The gameplay becomes more engaging. Just make sure to tune the damage properly. Oh, wait… I shouldn’t have made that last disclaimer to refute your point? Sorry.

What disparity?

The one concerning options to deal damage while you move.

It absolutely does render this approach less analytical. Your approach lacks any depth whatsoever because you ignore the mechanics of each class.

It does lack depth if the point was to prove any eventual damage output differences on movement heavy encounters in an expansion that hasn’t been released, nor finally tuned. However, you missed the point.

Also, analysis defined as “examining raw data with the purpose of drawing conclusions about that information”, yeah, it is analytical. But now we’re just back at your grasp of semantics.

since you decided to ignore all these you wrote a whole lot of text that shows nothing.

I wholeheartedly welcome you into the club.

Finally, with the interrelational consequence of the following two statements in mind...

Here is where I agree with you, it is a nerf to warlocks and shamans[…]

Nobody with a basic grasp of game mechanics agrees it is an accurate portrayal of anything.

...I think you’re quite brave to admit that you don’t have a basic grasp of game mechanics.

[Grizelda]

That's the problem with warlock movement, not numbers. Anyone who complains about numbers is just wasting time, because the class will eventually end up balanced to be competitive and then we'll have a fun time of Devs shutting down any request for something to press while moving as "oh no you just want to be overpowered, you're doing fine damage!", when that's really not a big problem. The class / spec feeling like arse is.

Actually, there is a little bit of a problem there. We're bursty to begin (particularly Destro) with but if we're tuned to have horrible movement than rocket the DPS again when we turret we get nerfed as being too bursty in PvP. Or we get that horrible Chaosbolt DoT treatment.

I think that if being very mobile is a perk of one class, in turn we should be able to be bursty. Unfortunately, history has shown that Blizz will nerf excessive PvP burst (from Warlocks at least).

[Durantye]

Honestly warlocks are fine on movement at the moment, of course I wish they would replace KJC with a talent I would actually take outside of very very specific circumstances. (I still support a KJC being made into a model similar to ice floes) but hey I'm fine if they leave everything as it is at the moment. Rain of Fire is actually a fairly good ability to use on the move. But real talk what we need to worry about is the useless affliction spell known as soul swap.

[Brusalk]

Honestly warlocks are fine on movement at the moment, of course I wish they would replace KJC with a talent I would actually take outside of very very specific circumstances. (I still support a KJC being made into a model similar to ice floes) but hey I'm fine if they leave everything as it is at the moment. Rain of Fire is actually a fairly good ability to use on the move. But real talk what we need to worry about is the useless affliction spell known as soul swap.

RoF is fine damage wise, for now.

We're at extremely low stat levels, and we don't have that much mastery. When we get more total stats and a lot more mastery, RoF will be a huge single target DPS loss like it was in 5.4.

Regardless, Blizzard's shown in the past (and I agree) that RoF in the single target rotation is not intended or okay.

[Durantye]

RoF is fine damage wise, for now.

We're at extremely low stat levels, and we don't have that much mastery. When we get more total stats and a lot more mastery, RoF will be a huge single target DPS loss like it was in 5.4.

Regardless, Blizzard's shown in the past (and I agree) that RoF in the single target rotation is not intended or okay.

Rain of Fire on single target should strictly be for movement, I don't think it should be a priority at all. But for the moment it is something to do on the move to generate embers and damage and I think it serves that purpose pretty well.

I don't think RoF will ever be a 'huge' single target loss especially not as a movement/aoe spell, I mean realistically I've played around with it on pure single target and while yes I realized soon that it wasn't worth casting standing still even with our absolute insane amounts of mastery in 6.0.3 (which is apparently far over what they intend to ever revisit again) rain of fire isn't horrendous, better than nothing.

If you're feeling down about destro movement remember there is a spec called elemental at the moment :P now those people have a right to complain (not really just a comparative joke)

[ambident]

Shamran I appreciate that you took the time to respond, unfortunately I don't have the time right now to respond to everything you've said.

Perhaps you could just answer a few True/False questions for me in the meantime.

Given the following two quotes:
• “In Warlords of Draenor, we're pulling back on the ability for many casters to deal damage while moving, and that includes Elemental”, and

• “We've reduced the ability for ranged damage dealers to deal damage while moving in Warlords”



Casters have a reduced ability to do damage while moving in Wod.
True or False

Casters do less damage while moving in Wod.
True or False

One of the warlock specs might have the best ability to do damage while moving (relative to other classes) despite casting nothing while on the move.
True or False

Thanks again

[Grizelda]

Replace the word casters with Warlocks and I'll agree with the first two.

[Tyrean]

The thing that irritates me the most about not having something that does damage instantly is basically doing old world stuff and pvp. I was farming a pattern for jeeves the other day and ended up having to use rain to kill things. It was irritating. Then in pvp there is basically nothing to do when a melee is on you for extended periods and it makes it impossible to kite them at all when you have to stand to cast and everything you have to cast takes 2 seconds...

[ambident]

See, what others have generally managed to take to heart, and what you, along with most others who had their epeen-pride hurt during MoP, failed to comprehend, is that the OP, and the mobility discussion in its entirety, has little to do with running the meters. As been stated several times, damage is simply a matter of tuning. To overstate that particular point:

You can paint me as an enemy if you feel like it, I played warlock a bit in cata, some in mop, and I'll continue to play it in WoD. Doesn't mean I'll rally behind someone spouting nonsense, even if he/she is self-appointed warlock spokesperson and Blizzard liasion.

Well, actually no. It wasn’t. To be accurate, it was for ability to deal damage while moving. And even more accurately, I initially called it “options” to deal damage while moving which I use synonymously with damage-while-moving toolkit. I’ve also shorthanded it in a number of other ways, like “damage-on-the-move options” or damage-on-the-move abilities”. But I certainly hope that syntax and semantics isn’t why you yourself posted the proverbial wall of text.

You should probably call them what they are, a list of spells that can be cast while moving. I don't actually care what you call them though, just don't confuse them with our ability to deal damage while moving.

In case you forgot:
• “In Warlords of Draenor, we're pulling back on the ability for many casters to deal damage while moving, and that includes Elemental”,

• “We've reduced the ability for ranged damage dealers to deal damage while moving in Warlords”

The quote you repeatedly refer to but do a very poor job of refuting says nothing of "number of options" or "number of instant cast spells". It says nothing of feel or fun or joy or engagement. Dealing damage has a well-defined metric called damage per second, in case you weren't aware.


All casters are currently penalized by movement in terms of their ability to deal damage (measured by damage per second).
When a caster moves, his ability to deal damage is reduced (measured by damage per second).
All casters have a reduced ability to deal damage while moving (measured by damage per second).
These statements are true.

If you want to catalog each classes ability to deal damage while moving, by all means do so, but don't omit spells that contribute to our ability to deal damage while moving just because it suits your agenda. If you asked me to measure and compare the different classes abilities to deal damage in general, I wouldn't list their spellbooks. We have better tools and metrics for this purpose.


While moving, some casters rely on casted spells to do damage, some casters rely on periodic damage, and some casters rely on pets.
Currently, a Warlocks ability to do damage while moving consists mostly of their pet attacking and periodic damage ticking.

You and I can both agree that neither of us know whether Warlocks current ability to deal damage (measured by damage per second) while moving is any better or worse than any other casters ability to deal damage while moving.

Whether it is elegant or fun or engaging is a different matter.

If your entire point was that it's not fun to move without casting you could have said it in fewer words, you didn't need to quote an irrelevant Blizzard post, people wouldn't be misinterpreting what you wrote, and I would have agreed with you.

I have no interest in arguing with you further, you are not claiming that warlock does worse in terms of measurable performance on movement fights, and I am not claiming that being unable to cast anything while moving is elegant, fun, or engaging.

[Deleted]

Actually, there is a little bit of a problem there. We're bursty to begin (particularly Destro) with but if we're tuned to have horrible movement than rocket the DPS again when we turret we get nerfed as being too bursty in PvP. Or we get that horrible Chaosbolt DoT treatment.

I think that if being very mobile is a perk of one class, in turn we should be able to be bursty. Unfortunately, history has shown that Blizz will nerf excessive PvP burst (from Warlocks at least).

I'd view that as another problem entirely, mostly related to huge cast times and blizzards refusal to give you a pro to outweight the huge con.

I still think movement feeling not fun and unjustly punishing is a much larger problem than trying to argue our dps while moving is bad. Numbers will be balanced, the horrible feelings that stem from the poor mechanical part of the class design probably won't be changed unless there's enough complaints.

If you're content doing decent damage but the class feeling crap to play, fine.
If you actually dislike how it feels to have nothing proper to press while moving, it's better to tell blizzard that the class feels bad, not that the class doesn't do enough damage, because that's feedback that I doubt will get any mechanical changes, just numbers.

[Shamran]

Casters have a reduced ability to do damage while moving in Wod.
True or False

If you by “do damage” mean actively deal damage, then false. True for Warlocks and Shamans.

Casters do less damage while moving in Wod.
True or False

Couldn’t say.

One of the warlock specs might have the best ability to do damage while moving (relative to other classes) despite casting nothing while on the move.
True or False

If you by “do damage” mean actively deal damage, I’ll say Tralse. Outside Meta, Demo is behind the likes of Fire and Frost Mages, Shadow Priests and Boomkins. Inside Meta, they’re on par with Frost and Fire Mages.

You can paint me as an enemy if you feel like it, I played warlock a bit in cata, some in mop, and I'll continue to play it in WoD. Doesn't mean I'll rally behind someone spouting nonsense, even if he/she is self-appointed warlock spokesperson and Blizzard liasion.

I paint you an enemy because you struck a completely unwarranted antagonistic tone in your first post about this, not because of what your opinion is; and I have no hope or need for you to rally behind anything.

You should probably call them what they are, a list of spells that can be cast while moving. I don't actually care what you call them though, just don't confuse them with our ability to deal damage while moving.
In case you forgot:

• “In Warlords of Draenor, we're pulling back on the ability for many casters to deal damage while moving, and that includes Elemental”,
• “We've reduced the ability for ranged damage dealers to deal damage while moving in Warlords”

The quote you repeatedly refer to but do a very poor job of refuting says nothing of "number of options" or "number of instant cast spells". It says nothing of feel or fun or joy or engagement. Dealing damage has a well-defined metric called damage per second, in case you weren't aware.

As I suspected, you spent so much time and effort on what essentially boils down to a question of semantics. Dreary, but fine.

I do, actually, call them that. If you read the post a little more carefully, there’s a summation for each class I cover under the heading “WoD-change in terms of being able to cast and deal damage on the move”. Is that concise enough for you?

And with that, we get to what your entire criticism is apparantly build upon: Different interpretations of what the following two statements mean:

• “In Warlords of Draenor, we're pulling back on the ability for many casters to deal damage while moving, and that includes Elemental”,
• “We've reduced the ability for ranged damage dealers to deal damage while moving in Warlords”

You seek to defend an argument that “ability to deal damage” can only mean ability to produce a high dps. I, on the other hand, argue that it can also mean ability to actively deal damage. The act of dealing damage by way of a spell or an ability. And although you do a fine job of following every remark you make with “(measured by damage per second)”, you make no effort to sustain your claim. That, in and of itself, is amusing since your main criticism is that I provide no evidence to refute Blizzard’s statements, yet you provide no evidence that they mean what you take them to mean.

But, by all means, let’s go down that road and discuss semantics. I did move a little way down that road in my previous response to you where I noted that since we disagree what Blizzard is saying, why don’t we take a look at what they’ve done?

You take the statements to mean that they’re reducing on-the-move damage output for all casters in WoD. Can we confirm or deny that? Since the expansion is neither released nor finally tuned, it’s not really possible to confirm or deny that.

So if that *is* what Blizzard is talking about – reducing the on-the-move damage output of all casters – wouldn’t they have made a number of comments about how this change is about damage output and not about having instant casts or stuff to actively cast while moving, and wouldn’t they simply have tuned such abilities to deal less damage so that the on-the-move damage output was lower?

Hard to say for sure, so let’s actually look at what concrete changes they have made and what other comments they have made about this issue (hint: I already did before I wrote the OP).

For example, let’s start with one of those statements that you and I have so emphatically discussed. From the patch notes:

“In Warlords of Draenor, we're pulling back on the ability for many casters to deal damage while moving, and that includes Elemental. They will still have some ability to deal damage while moving, through Shocks, Unleash Weapon, and instant Lava Bursts.”

Weird. They don’t say “They will still have some ability to maintain decent dps while moving through Flame Shock, Totems and other passive damage sources”. In stead, they mention three abilities to actively deal damage while moving.

And wouldn’t you know it, that same statement is actually preceded by the following remark:

“For a long time Elemental Shaman was one of the specializations most impacted by movement, at a time where other casters were increasingly able to cast while moving”.

So their lead-in to one of those statements we discuss isn’t about how others were able to maintain high dps while moving, but how other caster were able to *cast* while moving. Also, weird.

So that particular statement is both preceded and followed by remarks that strongly indicate that this has to do with being able to cast on-the-move, not maintain a certain dps on-the-move.

Now, where they do mention something about maintaining damage while moving is when discussing Elemental Shaman’s new Mastery: Molten Earth. Specifically they say:

“For the new Mastery, we wanted to strengthen the Elemental Shaman’s connection to earth energies, and added damage that continues while the Shaman is moving”.

Now, *that* is weird. Because, if the discussed statements, as you say, only has to do with Blizzard wanting to reduce on-the-move dps across the board, why would they then first deprive the class of a number of instant-casts and on-the-move castables, only to create a new Mastery with the specific purpose of increasing their damage output on-the-move?

Now, let’s take a look at that other statement:

“We've reduced the ability for ranged damage dealers to deal damage while moving in Warlords. Kil'jaeden's Cunning became a problematic talent because its mobility made Warlocks much stronger compared to other casters”.

Nothing about how on-the-move dps was too high, but rather, that mobility made them stronger than other casters. (And please note, that I've said a number of times in this thread, that having a high on-the-move dps and abilities to cast on the move can, of course, interact). So, if their ambition had only been to reduce on-the-move dps, as you claim, they could simply have made KJC into a version reminiscent to Charred Remains. As in, KJC makes your Incinerate castable while moving, but reduces its damage by X%. But they didn’t reduce damage. They reduced the ability to actively deal damage on the move.

And from the patchnotes, a few additional underlining remarks:

“The Cast Speed Slow was a debuff type that mattered almost exclusively to PvP, and made combat much less fun for casters in addition to encouraging the use of instant-cast spells. We decided that it was best to remove casting speed debuffs”.

Why is it a problem that players are encouraged to use instant-cast spells? If it was because they’re were concerned with on-the-move dps, they could simply reduce the damage of those instant-casts. They don't, though. Instead they claim to reduce the ability to actively deal damage on-the-move. However, they only get as far as Warlocks and Shamans in implementing that notion. A point that’s thoroughly highlighted when looking at the following remark. This is about Frost Mages, of all classes:

“However, we do want to clean up some rough spots, especially around their valuing of secondary stats, and the amount of instant-cast spells in their rotation”

Huh? First off, this isn’t about how they want to reduce on-the-move dps, but rather the amount of instant casts. Secondly, explain, please, what great strides they have taken to clean up the amount of instant-cast spells in the Frost Mage Rotation? That they can no longer choose LB as a talent - but instead got a different instant cast? Because that's all that happened to the Frost Mage rotation. IL still there. BF is still there and now it can even be stored to greater lenghts.

Now, that was merely the patch notes. Let’s take a look at what Blizzard Community Manager, Lore, said about dealing damage on the move:

“Casting on the move is something we've talked about a lot, and we're definitely making some changes along those lines. I don't have any details I can share at this point, but I can at least give some insight into our thinking.

We like casting on the move, but not as a default. Spiritwalker's Grace is a good example of something we like; used intelligently, it can be very strong, and it feels good to use. On the other hand, Lightning Bolt always being castable on the move we're less excited about. You don't feel smart or skilled for using Lightning Bolt while you're moving, it's just sort of a free bonus that we're not sure is really needed.

Things like Kil'Jaeden's Cunning fall somewhere in the middle. The effect is similar to Lightning Bolt in that it's always active and you don't really have to think about it. However, you are effectively giving up either Archimonde's Darkness or Mannoroth's Fury in order to take it. Whether or not that's enough of a tradeoff is something we're discussing, but we have seen a lot more Warlocks giving up KJC for something else since Patch 5.4.

It's also important to note that the ability to use a cast-time spell while moving is only part of the issue. In fact, while there's only a couple of classes that can do that, almost everyone has some number of instant cast spells they can use while moving. To really start shoring up the differences here, we need to reduce the number of instant cast spells as well. That includes healers”. Source.

Nothing about how they want to reduce on-the-move dps. Every notion concerns that they want to move away from being able to cast and actively deal damage on-the-move.

Also, in a discussion about mobility on the official Blizzard forum, Lore commented on the following:

“We like mobility as the Hunter's "niche". I won't guarantee you'll still be able to do 100% of your rotation on the move, but we want to try to keep what we can there”. Source.

It has nothing to do with the damage output of each class when they move. It has to do with what they’re after thematically for each class. Hunters are as much ranged as Mages and Warlocks, but they simply like them to be able to cast pretty much everything while they move. For casters, they’re claim to be after the opposite. Only problem is, they only apply that treatment to Warlocks and Shamans.

Additionally, from an interview with Ion Hazzikostas, Lead Encounter Designer:
“Ultimately, for casters, we do want to reduce the number of instant spells”. Source.

Not that they want to reduce how much damage they’re doing on a movement heavy fights, but what they’re able to cast while moving. He even goes on to say that it’s because they want to get back to a place where melee can carry out their entire rotation on the move, and where casters can’t. No comment on on-the-move damage output, but on rotation and ability usage. Thematics and gameplay.

Okay, so that was a little about semantics, now let's just briefly touch upon what’s actually been done: If it was only a matter of reducing on-the-move dps, they could have kept the things like MoP-KJC Fel Flame, Backlash, running Lightning Bolts and Unleash Flame and simply tuned their damage to a desired level. They haven’t. They’ve removed those abilities. Which, as demonstrated, is very much in line with their statements on the matter. Only problem is, they stopped after applying that philosophy to Warlocks and Shamans.

It may very well be the case that Blizzard has an ambition to also reduce on-the-move dps. However, they haven’t really demonstrated that, and you certainly haven’t. I, on the other, have demonstrated that those statements, and what Blizzard has said and done aside from that, has very much to do with being able to actively deal damage on the move.

To that end:

If you want to catalog each classes ability to deal damage while moving, by all means do so, but don't omit spells that contribute to our ability to deal damage while moving just because it suits your agenda.

I don’t. That is, apparently, something you’d like to see happen.

While moving, some casters rely on casted spells to do damage, some casters rely on periodic damage, and some casters rely on pets.

It seem like you’re getting that grasp on basic game mechanics you were so brave to admit you didn’t possess. And that’s great. But still not the point of the post.

You and I can both agree that neither of us know whether Warlocks current ability to deal damage (measured by damage per second) while moving is any better or worse than any other casters ability to deal damage while moving.

Indeed. But still you keep writing as if that was what I was trying to, and should, be concerned with.

Whether it is elegant or fun or engaging is a different matter.

Indeed. The matter at hand. But you're the one who made this into a discussion about semantics.

If your entire point was that it's not fun to move without casting you could have said it in fewer words, you didn't need to quote an irrelevant Blizzard post, people wouldn't be misinterpreting what you wrote, and I would have agreed with you.

So now your criticism is that I spent too much text getting my point across? “Hello, Kettle? Yeah, it’s me, Pot. I know, I know. It's been ages, we really should do lunch and catch up. That's has to wait, though - I just wanted to let you know that you are, in fact, black. Laters!”.

Also, regardless of the fact that you failed to comprehend what the OP was about, it still wouldn’t be prudent to make claims without backing them up. You know, like you’re doing.

I have no interest in arguing with you further, you are not claiming that warlock does worse in terms of measurable performance on movement fights, and I am not claiming that being unable to cast anything while moving is elegant, fun, or engaging.

I’ve always enjoyed comments like these: “Now that I’ve gotten the last word and made all sorts of snide remarks at your expense, I’ve got no interest in discussing this matter further”. Really? Aside from that, at least you got this part right. I have no problem admitting that those statements may also be about on-the-move dps. But, as demonstrated, they're certainly also about what you're actively able to cast on the move.

[Nighthaven-]

I would like to say at this point it is better to toss insults instead of nagging about what your opposition said instead of meant.
Just watch out for the annoying mods that enforce stupid rules no matter how 'unhealthy' those rules are/ peace and prosperity bs/ moronic bureaucracy ways.

Identify his actual claim and keep it to one exceptionally accurate one-liner to counter it- and if he ain't got any claim: highlight so.

Sometimes it's better to simply hit your opponent (just as you would do in real life) instead of spiraling into 'waffle pen-and-paper-bs' /wasting time.

- If you can toss deceptive/ indirect insults while arguing and he can't stay on topic, his point will be even less worth.
- When you have short and precise claims with a minimalistic explanation it is very hard to 'bend' what you're saying as with what's happening here.

[Grizelda]

If you actually dislike how it feels to have nothing proper to press while moving, it's better to tell blizzard that the class feels bad, not that the class doesn't do enough damage, because that's feedback that I doubt will get any mechanical changes, just numbers.

I hope you are right. I've been looking for the magical combination of feedback (numbers, feelz, you tube footage, lore, snark, threats of violence, solidarity with E-famous players etc.) that will get them to pull their heads out from their asses.

[Durantye]

Jesus Christ Ambident and Shamran you two should focus that angry key pressing into a co-written book instead.

[andromalia]

Jesus Christ Ambident and Shamran you two should focus that angry key pressing into a co-written book instead.

All that text and Ambi completely misses the point.