How many guilds have cleared all MoP Heroic content?

[theWocky]

Hi, guys (and lasses)

having an argument with a muppet on another mmorpg's forums and I need to know -
How many guilds have cleared all MoP Heroic content?
I don't care about "achievements" - just want to know who's done all the bosses?

This particular "other" mmo has 4 (yes, 4) guilds that have cleared all the content for their current expansion. Their "hardcore" raider base is probably less than 200 people. of the top 4 guilds (20 man teams), dev's use about 50% or more of them to test / tweak content and then they STILL take months to clear content.

This guy is arguing that it is irrelevant that Warcraft has a hardcore base of +/- 100,000 to 150,000 (hardcore) players (2~5% of the population) as their particular mmo's talent is still "world class".

My argument is that due to sheer competition, you will find more talented, more skilled players at the top of a talent pool of 100,000 ~ 150,000 players than what you could get out of (maybe) 200 players because the top guilds can be more demanding on their players and "who" they choose to accept.

He is also arguing that their best teams are as good as the WoW best teams. In my opinion, due to the considerable difference of "available" talent, I fail to see how this is possible. Remotely possible, maybe, but likely? I sincerely doubt it.

I'm probably going to do a video on this soon as I need to vent.

EDIT: bah! I forgot WoWprogress - counting guilds now.

Just over 924 x 25 Man Guilds have 14/14 Heroic, 1,905 x 10 Man Guilds have cleared 14/14 Heroic,

so that's 23,100 x 25-man players and 19,050 x 10-man players

I just know what the muppet's next comment is going to be... the Heroic raids in WoW are easier. >sigh<

[melodramocracy]

Anytime you increase the size of a talent pool, you also increase the number of people who will fit into each skill ranking.

Having said that, it'd be easy to see that top groups from each game play just as effectively. So they're probably as good... there are just fewer of them.

[Overdispersion]

Keep in mind that's a heavily nerfed raid content that's been up for more than a year. For instance, Throne of Thunder heroic was completed by 1075 10 man guilds and 254 25 man guilds before Siege of Orgrimmar launch.

[Illiterate]

what other mmo?

[theWocky]

what other mmo?

I don't want to create a rift in this discussion putting one company against another :P

[PessimiStick]

There's not really much discussion.

Pool of millions vs. pool of thousands. Pool of millions will have more outliers in every possible area. In order to get exceptions to that general rule, you need some serious selective pressures on the pools, like professional sports. Since no one is getting paid 6-7 figure salaries for playing an MMO, the general rule will apply and WoW will have better players in essentially every case.

[Giscoicus]

There's not really much discussion.

Pool of millions vs. pool of thousands. Pool of millions will have more outliers in every possible area. In order to get exceptions to that general rule, you need some serious selective pressures on the pools, like professional sports. Since no one is getting paid 6-7 figure salaries for playing an MMO, the general rule will apply and WoW will have better players in essentially every case.

Well given OPs calculation of about 40,000 full heroic players in WoW and the assertion that there are about 200 hardcore players in this other MMO, for the ratio of playerbase to hardcore to be the same as WoW. the game would need to have 34,000 players. Other MMOs have small playerbases, but thats still really tiny for a game.

[Kheirn]

For all we know those four guilds could be shit compared to WoW guilds that clear HC content (in a relevant time frame, i.e. not after almost a year with softnerfs). There's simply not enough data to make any conclusion what so ever.

[theWocky]

For all we know those four guilds could be shit compared to WoW guilds that clear HC content (in a relevant time frame, i.e. not after almost a year with softnerfs). There's simply not enough data to make any conclusion what so ever.

I know for a fact that only 4 guilds (80 people in total) in the other game have cleared all the content for the next expansion. Quite frankly, I don't know why the devs even bother making raids for the game as it is F2P and they don't generate cash from raiding with their model really.

I admit I was quite shocked to hear this. There are +/- 200 (maybe ... at a stretch 500 - a real stretch) hardcore players. It's a private company, so they don't release subscribers. I have a suspicion it's about 100,000 to 150,000 people at most at the moment.

[Theronus]

Just over 924 x 25 Man Guilds have 14/14 Heroic, 1,905 x 10 Man Guilds have cleared 14/14 Heroic,

so that's 23,100 x 25-man players and 19,050 x 10-man players

I just know what the muppet's next comment is going to be... the Heroic raids in WoW are easier. >sigh<

Not even close, you have to consider alts and guilds that changed format.
Otherwise I agree with your point.

[theWocky]

Not even close, you have to consider alts and guilds that changed format.
Otherwise I agree with your point.

I'm just using the only site I have as a reference point - WoW-progress

Also, with Sunwell, they said only 1~2% of the playerbase saw content, so I "assume" that held true for players who would be considered hardcore. It's completely possible the demographic has shifted substantially to a more casual playerbase, but I estimate with a 1~2% being hardcore that the "hardcore" mindset talent pool is still +/- 70,000 to 150,000 people - regardless of how many guilds have completed 14/14 heroic.

[Boticha]

It's not about how many people cleared it, it's how fast you can clear it yourself before the nerf. Guilds who cleared H-SoO with 565 average ilvl are probably way more skilled than these hardcore guilds in your game.

[Deja Thoris]

Who wins at football, Iceland or Germany? Oh yea, the place with the biggest pool of talent to pick from.

On the flip side, who wins at rugby? New Zealand. Tiny pool of players to pick from.

Looks like theres lots of factors and work and we don't have the data! Maths is on the side of WoW having better players I'd imagine. Theres more competition, resources and tools to help improve you.

[theWocky]

It's not about how many people cleared it, it's how fast you can clear it yourself before the nerf. Guilds who cleared H-SoO with 565 average ilvl are probably way more skilled than these hardcore guilds in your game.

Oh, I agree.

I just brought this whole thing up because some of the people in these other guilds in this other game think they can compare their progress and claim with their limited player-base that they are on par with the skill of the creme of the WoW playerbase skill pool. I fail to see how they can say this is so.

It's like comparing a small town's best baseball team to a team in the world series.

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On the flip side, who wins at rugby? New Zealand. Tiny pool of players to pick from.

While certain games can be judged on locality - for example New Zealanders, South Africans, Australians are all Rugby nuts - a higher percentage of the population play and they constantly play on the world stage, so their talent / skills remain high.

Our kids play rugby in school and from even earlier whereas the US kids don't necessarily start this young - even though they may have a higher population.

Difference with an MMO to a game like soccer, rugby is that each individual in the MMORPG pool is not necessarily bound by a country (maybe latency). So, this is a constant. You selected for the best raid teams based on your skill - irrelevant of locale. A game with a playerbase of hardcore raiders of 150,000 are obviously going to have a better selection of skill to choose from than one with 500.

[Giscoicus]

Who wins at football, Iceland or Germany? Oh yea, the place with the biggest pool of talent to pick from.

On the flip side, who wins at rugby? New Zealand. Tiny pool of players to pick from.

Looks like theres lots of factors and work and we don't have the data! Maths is on the side of WoW having better players I'd imagine. Theres more competition, resources and tools to help improve you.

Again, if you do the math you would see that for the game to be on par with WoW, it would need to only have 35000 players total. Theronus brings up a good point about guilds that change format however, but it even with just 20,000 players clearing in WoW, the other MMO would need just 70,000 players to keep the % similar.

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Oh, I agree.

I just brought this whole thing up because some of the people in these other guilds in this other game think they can compare their progress and claim with their limited player-base that they are on par with the skill of the creme of the WoW playerbase skill pool. I fail to see how they can say this is so.

It's like comparing a small town's best baseball team to a team in the world series.

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While certain games can be judged on locality - for example New Zealanders, South Africans, Australians are all Rugby nuts - a higher percentage of the population play and they constantly play on the world stage, so their talent / skills remain high.

Our kids play rugby in school and from even earlier whereas the US kids don't necessarily start this young - even though they may have a higher population.

Difference with an MMO to a game like soccer, rugby is that each individual in the MMORPG pool is not necessarily bound by a country (maybe latency). So, this is a constant. You selected for the best raid teams based on your skill - irrelevant of locale. A game with a playerbase of hardcore raiders of 150,000 are obviously going to have a better selection of skill to choose from than one with 500.

I dont think that you are going to have a higher % of hardcore players with a larger playerbase. Compared to the size of the playerbase, if your estimate of 100,000 is correct for the other MMO, the % of players clearing is far smaller than WoW's, nearly 3x. That would suggest that the content is more difficult.

[PrairieChicken]

Guilds are not everything. People clear full heroics without guild all the time