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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Well if you have beta you know feral is op as fuck and warriors are getting a close second. Warlocks are notgibg to wory about at this point.

    Ps: healing got nerfed recent patch so thank god of that.
    I was responding to the statement that there would be yet another expansion with insanely op ferals.
    I found that amusing since there hasnt been a single expansion like that ever. 2 weeks of op bleeds doesnt
    really justify being called op as fuck for the entire season. But whats the point discussing this really.

    Its not like QQers read my arguments. They just blindly reply and cry on.

    Feral healing has been nerfed and so has ferocious bite damage along with key survival-cooldowns earlier on beta.
    Soon there is only one overlord going live and thats holinkas warrior. Back to normal. There can be only one bla bla

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Weltmacht View Post
    Make the heal consume 3-5 combo points so the Feral has to sacrifice damage for the heal instead of dropping a 60k crit and getting a free Healing Touch as a bonus.
    This. Something has to give. I don't care if its damage or healing, but ferals cannot be allowed to have both at such strength. On top of the healing they still have damage reduction skills that are superior to most melee that can't heal anywhere near as much.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skarssen View Post
    This. Something has to give. I don't care if its damage or healing, but ferals cannot be allowed to have both at such strength. On top of the healing they still have damage reduction skills that are superior to most melee that can't heal anywhere near as much.
    What exactly is survival instincts superior to?

    It's 6 second damage reduction that can't be used while CCed.
    It has a 12s icd so the 2 charges doesn't really make it ground breaking.

    It is the only defensive cool down btw so I'd like to know
    which skillS you are referring to.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by MrApple View Post
    What exactly is survival instincts superior to?

    It's 6 second damage reduction that can't be used while CCed.
    It has a 12s icd so the 2 charges doesn't really make it ground breaking.

    It is the only defensive cool down btw so I'd like to know
    which skillS you are referring to.
    Hey mr. Apple, guess we are both wasting our time here trying to make clear to the other 'complainers' of this forum that what they are stating has not the minimum feedback in arena or whatever... I have already stated pure numbers in previoius posts, nobody could / or wanted to question them.
    Of course those ppl are trolling or... do not have the minimum idea what they are talking about.
    I went out of stormwind with my kitty (well it was more a were-kitty) to duel a bit with other classes. It is true I could beat more easily than in Pandaria a hunter, it is true I won vs. a warrior and vs. a monk, on the other hand it is also true that the hunter was not playing survival (which with his traps is currently the most viable pvp spec) and the war and monk had not a clue what a def. cd is, they did not use any during the duel. The 2 dks I had a duel with, well one of them beat me (I am not a tough player), the other as said before did almost as much healing as I did, then finally I managed to win.
    But all this is no-sense since I guess blizzard is balancing from 3v3 up and exactly as it was in pandaria where warriors were OP as hell (accordingly to world of wargraphs 10-15% all warriors were over 1800 rating in various brackets) and they NEVER got nerfed, of course they needed to join together with a healer... I guess there is nothing wrong if now, in WoD, the feral might be a little more stronger and finally again a requested class to fill the roles in rbg, 3v3 5v5...

  5. #45
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by MrApple View Post
    I was responding to the statement that there would be yet another expansion with insanely op ferals.
    I found that amusing since there hasnt been a single expansion like that ever. 2 weeks of op bleeds doesnt
    really justify being called op as fuck for the entire season. But whats the point discussing this really.

    Its not like QQers read my arguments. They just blindly reply and cry on.

    Feral healing has been nerfed and so has ferocious bite damage along with key survival-cooldowns earlier on beta.
    Soon there is only one overlord going live and thats holinkas warrior. Back to normal. There can be only one bla bla
    First he insults QQ-ers about ferals, then he QQs about warriors.

    The irony is sweet.

  6. #46
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardball View Post
    First he insults QQ-ers about ferals, then he QQs about warriors.

    The irony is sweet.
    Call it whatever makes you sleep the best at night

  7. #47
    So are you, in fact, saying that ferals are fine at the moment? That the superior self healing and damage is somehow related to player skill not game mechanics?

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    So are you, in fact, saying that ferals are fine at the moment? That the superior self healing and damage is somehow related to player skill not game mechanics?
    Nobody is saying anything. There are only facts to be stated.
    1. Fact is that in MoP exp. mages were/are absolutely OP in any bracket, and there was/is absolutely no need to be particulary skilled to play a mage. All istant and tremendous dmg output.
    2. Fact is that in MoP exp wars (with healer behind) are unstoppable and can put so much pressure on a target to shot almost anything. Proof are statistics.

    So coming to the topic, I do not see any problem in the fact that finally after 4 years feral class may be once a gain a bit OP and that no particular skill is required to get 2k + rating.
    Indeed as I said in one of my posts some days ago... feral is being nerfed over and over - see build 18967 and will be nerfed more and more until the other players using other classes will be finally able to soloing them in 1v1. Then every one will be happy !!
    Srsl I do not understand why blizzard let always the same classes be in higher pvp ratings. None of my business of course. I like to play also other classes and guess that if things do not change I will delete my feral after 4 years. No problem at all achievmente are accountwide.
    Happy mageing.

  9. #49
    Cause this is how it worked so far, with this "take turns at raping pvp" shit. In S6 as a DK I was scoring high ratings with a paladin that didn't know she had Blessing of Freedom (now Hand). That is stupid. Allowing a huge difference between the potency of classes is frustrating for those left behind. Right now ferals are way ahead of DKs, rets and warriors.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    Cause this is how it worked so far, with this "take turns at raping pvp" shit. In S6 as a DK I was scoring high ratings with a paladin that didn't know she had Blessing of Freedom (now Hand). That is stupid. Allowing a huge difference between the potency of classes is frustrating for those left behind. Right now ferals are way ahead of DKs, rets and warriors.
    What did u just say... ?? Ferals way ahead... who ?? Dks ??
    U kidding me right ?
    I was duelling outside sw, any dk who knew the basics about his class could beat my feral very easily so far. Then I rolled one (taling 'bout dk lev 100 of course) and checked the pure healing and dmg values.
    Well let me tell u somethin... the dk healing frost/unholy the same... is far higher than feral ones.
    Even using hotw as talent I got just 45 secs more of survival but after expiry... well I could just check out. Indeed someone said that blood presence is broken.
    way ahead of rets ? well tough rets could heal the crap out of their spec and have even a good burst. The duels took just to long, bot feral and rets could manage good healing to make duel last...
    way ahead of wars ? I confirm !
    Again. As said before, no problems with that at all, just a descriptions of facts, and to re-roll into another op class is each day passes a closer option (at least for me).

  11. #51
    Pit Lord Blithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weltmacht View Post
    Make the heal consume 3-5 combo points so the Feral has to sacrifice damage for the heal instead of dropping a 60k crit and getting a free Healing Touch as a bonus.
    This. It would reduce the amount of healing output that Ferals have, and bring them more in line with Enhancement and Retribution. In addition to that, the mana cost of shape-shifting needs to be increased so that you actually have to think about when you'd like to shape-shift, instead of using a macro and pretty much becoming immune to any snare or root in the game. This would also bring them down a notch in terms of overall mobility, and slow down the arms race relevant to the amount of snares and roots in the game now, as that amount was reduced. Maybe the glyph of shape-shifting might be used, who knows. There has to be some sacrifice, and Feral seems to be the melee hybrid who tends to get away with all of it.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Blithe View Post
    This. It would reduce the amount of healing output that Ferals have, and bring them more in line with Enhancement and Retribution. In addition to that, the mana cost of shape-shifting needs to be increased so that you actually have to think about when you'd like to shape-shift, instead of using a macro and pretty much becoming immune to any snare or root in the game. This would also bring them down a notch in terms of overall mobility, and slow down the arms race relevant to the amount of snares and roots in the game now, as that amount was reduced. Maybe the glyph of shape-shifting might be used, who knows. There has to be some sacrifice, and Feral seems to be the melee hybrid who tends to get away with all of it.
    Feral was nerfed in 18967 and even in 18950, later than this thread was created. And still ppl (a moderator?) is suggesting to nerf this class even more. Btw the healing output of retri is at least the same if not more, as feral (I do not count those 45 secs hotw, cause in arena DoC will be mandatory for the heals to your partner).
    Well I took a tour through other threads here on the forum and could not find anything about how much overpowered are dk's (everyone in trade in beta is complaining about huge dmg and heal output of dks, now that ferals do not constitute a threat anymore). Why ? Why nobody is asking to nerf this beloved 'hero' class. May be I just missed the thread. Pls address me to it, if it exists.
    Feral has lost all his survivability, given that in duel a rogue could just me beat from 80%hp to 0% hp in 7 seconds stun. Just hilarious. Why is nobody asking to nerf down rogues cc ?
    So much 'hatred' towards the feral. Really do not understand why...

  13. #53
    Pit Lord Blithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskpanther View Post
    Feral was nerfed in 18967 and even in 18950, later than this thread was created. And still ppl (a moderator?) is suggesting to nerf this class even more. Btw the healing output of retri is at least the same if not more, as feral (I do not count those 45 secs hotw, cause in arena DoC will be mandatory for the heals to your partner).
    Well I took a tour through other threads here on the forum and could not find anything about how much overpowered are dk's (everyone in trade in beta is complaining about huge dmg and heal output of dks, now that ferals do not constitute a threat anymore). Why ? Why nobody is asking to nerf this beloved 'hero' class. May be I just missed the thread. Pls address me to it, if it exists.
    Feral has lost all his survivability, given that in duel a rogue could just me beat from 80%hp to 0% hp in 7 seconds stun. Just hilarious. Why is nobody asking to nerf down rogues cc ?
    So much 'hatred' towards the feral. Really do not understand why...
    So a moderator's not allowed to have an opinion on the matter? We moderate the forums, yes, but we're entitled to an opinion just as much as anybody else here, it's a discussion forum.

    I personally find, from experience playing one and against one, that Feral has too much utility in the form of mobility. Everybody's mobility was cut, and even the amount of snares and roots in the game were reduced overall, yet Feral hasn't been touched at all regarding mobility? I know they're supposed to be swift, but becoming immune to any form of that specific crowd control because they're able to use a macro that takes them in and out of their forms instantly isn't fair at all. There needs to be decision making regarding shape-shifting. "Should I shape-shift out of this root or do I need the mana for a heal?" - it should be clutch, and treated as a cooldown of sorts. All I'm asking is that the mana cost be increased, so there's thought put into the class and more decision making involved.

  14. #54
    However by once again nerfing shapeshifting (even if it just reduces how often we can) you're losing the identity of feral. Since its inception the druid class has been able to shift out of roots and snares, with the exception of the wonderful Cataclysm expansion; we saw how terribly that turned out, even though I believe most non-biased players would say that nerf was definitely overkill. Feral has been (and I hope will continue to be) a highly mobile class that pressures with bleeds and support, but even I will definitely admit healing was a bit too high on Beta a few builds back. I haven't had much of a chance to go on lately for testing or just messing around but I'll definitely see how the healing tuning feels once I get back on.

    In terms of damage I'm fine with FB nerfs, it'll help with PVE tuning as well since according to simcraft right now FB is roughly 20-25% of feral damage, making the choice for stat weights in that area of the game difficult, as crit pulls ahead for single target and mastery for multitarget. I'd like if the focus of feral damage is shifted away from Shred/FB and back to bleeds, notably Rip, which does roughly the same damage as Rake on the last build I played (non-stealthed Rake), when it's our 5 CP finisher. Putting some damage back into that to reward players who consistently keep it up on their kill target in both PvE and PvP would be appreciated I'd like to think.

    As a side note if the proposed 3CP heal changes AND shapeshifting mana costs are made that's not going to be a decision that's even going to be needed to be thought about almost ever. Unless you're playing double DPS 2s or your healer is CC'd you're not going to bother wasting shit on a heal, you'll just shift out, still continuing not to think about mana cost.

    I'd really love some 3v3 statistics or videos from beta for feral, especially now that a few fixes have gone live; as it appears most are quoting duels and 2v2s. I'll play but none of my team mates have beta and I'm not sure how well a random pug group would be for a good representation.

    Note that most of this is speculation and opinion as, since I stated, I haven't played in a few builds.

  15. #55
    Pit Lord Blithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kals View Post
    However by once again nerfing shapeshifting (even if it just reduces how often we can) you're losing the identity of feral. Since its inception the druid class has been able to shift out of roots and snares, with the exception of the wonderful Cataclysm expansion; we saw how terribly that turned out, even though I believe most non-biased players would say that nerf was definitely overkill. Feral has been (and I hope will continue to be) a highly mobile class that pressures with bleeds and support, but even I will definitely admit healing was a bit too high on Beta a few builds back. I haven't had much of a chance to go on lately for testing or just messing around but I'll definitely see how the healing tuning feels once I get back on.

    In terms of damage I'm fine with FB nerfs, it'll help with PVE tuning as well since according to simcraft right now FB is roughly 20-25% of feral damage, making the choice for stat weights in that area of the game difficult, as crit pulls ahead for single target and mastery for multitarget. I'd like if the focus of feral damage is shifted away from Shred/FB and back to bleeds, notably Rip, which does roughly the same damage as Rake on the last build I played (non-stealthed Rake), when it's our 5 CP finisher. Putting some damage back into that to reward players who consistently keep it up on their kill target in both PvE and PvP would be appreciated I'd like to think.

    As a side note if the proposed 3CP heal changes AND shapeshifting mana costs are made that's not going to be a decision that's even going to be needed to be thought about almost ever. Unless you're playing double DPS 2s or your healer is CC'd you're not going to bother wasting shit on a heal, you'll just shift out, still continuing not to think about mana cost.

    I'd really love some 3v3 statistics or videos from beta for feral, especially now that a few fixes have gone live; as it appears most are quoting duels and 2v2s. I'll play but none of my team mates have beta and I'm not sure how well a random pug group would be for a good representation.

    Note that most of this is speculation and opinion as, since I stated, I haven't played in a few builds.
    Feral would still definitely keep its identity, even if the mana cost was increased, as it'd still be the only class able to shape-shift out of roots and snares. It's unique in that way already, in addition to Dash and Stampeding Roar, and any talents it opts to choose. It's too mobile. Something's got to give.

    I agree that Cataclysm was overkill, because Blizzard tried to solve the problem in a round-about way, by adding a cooldown to shape-shifting which completely gutted the specialization. That's why I'm proposing a mana cost increase instead, which would at least steer the class in the right direction in terms of decision making. It's mindless and downright stupid to be able to become immune to roots and snares (as well as the already existing polymorph immunity) with a macro.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Blithe View Post
    Feral would still definitely keep its identity, even if the mana cost was increased, as it'd still be the only class able to shape-shift out of roots and snares. It's unique in that way already, in addition to Dash and Stampeding Roar, and any talents it opts to choose. It's too mobile. Something's got to give.

    I agree that Cataclysm was overkill, because Blizzard tried to solve the problem in a round-about way, by adding a cooldown to shape-shifting which completely gutted the specialization. That's why I'm proposing a mana cost increase instead, which would at least steer the class in the right direction in terms of decision making. It's mindless and downright stupid to be able to become immune to roots and snares (as well as the already existing polymorph immunity) with a macro.
    Of course a moderator can express his opinion I was just wondering because on other forums (other arguments, not WoW) this do not happens (it's not allowed I guess)...
    Anyway, it is really not an issue if they nerf further more feral, despite my apparent 'protesting' I am just playing my current kitty role here . They really should go on with this as you suggest. Anyway I followed carefully the worldofwargraphs statistics all over MoP and "strangely" over 1800 rating (where pvp begins) there were only warriors, mages, holypriest disputing 1st healer place with resto druid... then to follow unholy dk, mm hunter... and the overpowered feral was played by 2.5% ppl Vs a 10 upto 15% of wars a 7 upto 10% of frost mages and so on... Of course as I said in other wow forums, a blizzard Dev would just answer me "there are ferals with 2,8k rating so it is possible, learn to play your class". And I will just answer coming back to the statistics, it is not my task but their task to 'balance' classes and i feel 12% wars Vs. 2.3% feral is not balanced. Anyway, the fact remains, at higher pvp levels nobody will play, and indeed nobody played, a class which is 'weak' compared to other stronger classes, this is obvious to understand, I hope. Even on my server on timeless isle the pvp 'gankers' were all using mages, hunters, dk...
    And despite an incoherent like me did it all over Cata and MoP I have fun to play a cat and in arena I was just helping other ppl to cap, ... now I have had enough of this ornament kitty. I am already rolling and studying other classes because in WoD I would like to step into arena/rbg a little more seriously chasing higher rating, but it It will be easier for sure with an op class and not with a pet cat. I forecast and I bet my 450k gold on it, that again in WoD the wordlofwargraphs statistics will prove me right. Feral as arena mate (starting 3v3 and up) will be choosen less than any other else, not talking about rbg. Feral is suffering to much in mele range - has no survivability - nothing to cast while stunned, a surv instinct of 6 seconds is ridiculous compared to, for example, a rogue mele evasion of 15 secs + prep and other 15 secs, or mage who can blink out of any stun, speed up, block himself 10secs regenerating 100k health. So feral should do well vs. casters ? no because rogues do it better more effective cc's and smoky bomb. May be guardians should be powerful FC ? may be but srsl look at monks mobility and survivability before talking of feral, and anyway guardian is not feral. The only thing which makes feral useful now may be a high healing rate and high damage rate, but these were tuned down, dmg is currently balanced with other classes and healing is less than dk or retri... The only thing which remains as Blithe said, is mobility, but guess what, its to op so lets take it away, feral should not be able to run away in the desperate try to survive. I will come back on the argument later during WoD expansion, just to smile at and hug ferals which will probably not be my class anymore.

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