Is 4 set bonus still crap as a Fury?

[Dormie]

Honestly I have no idea what the correct fury rotation or way to play it is right now.

[Deleted]

@Ferg

Don´t get me wrong, I never said they are doing a bad job with the sim, infact the work thats being done is great.
All I´m saying is that its misleading to special case one ability with execution error when you are simulating under the premise of perfect execution.
Is perfect execution realistic? No! But it´s even more unrealistic that you perfectly execute all abilities except one...

[Archimtiros]

@Ferg

Don´t get me wrong, I never said they are doing a bad job with the sim, infact the work thats being done is great.
All I´m saying is that its misleading to special case one ability with execution error when you are simulating under the premise of perfect execution.
Is perfect execution realistic? No! But it´s even more unrealistic that you perfectly execute all abilities except one...

You are forgetting, the problem with Wild Strike is that it isn't effected by haste. Since other abilities and their GCDs are, it makes up for the time difference.

- - - Updated - - -

Normal GCD abilities still fire off on time GCD-wise, because in realistic conditions custom lag tolerance helps you out. Wild Strike does not, because even Lag Tolerance doesn't affect it properly because the game, quite simply doesn't take to <1s GCD abilities very well.

Keep in mind also the sim can account for players messing up or playing "slowly", but you'd have to lower the skill cap in the sim. By default the sim assumes you are an expert.

[Dormie]

So, after the changes they've made, is it still crap?

Here's my armory... http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Ponders/simple


I just got the Essence so I can get any tier piece. Would it be worth replacing something with a tier piece or is the 4 piece still not worth it?

[Artorius]

So, after the changes they've made, is it still crap?

Here's my armory... http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Ponders/simple


I just got the Essence so I can get any tier piece. Would it be worth replacing something with a tier piece or is the 4 piece still not worth it?

Does it really matter at this point?
It's not going to be a huge difference for higher or lower anyway.

[Warcite]

As of now (and being so close to WOD) I'd take whatever you can get. I have replaced all my tier with Mythic WF armor pieces atm.

[Dormie]

Does it really matter at this point?
It's not going to be a huge difference for higher or lower anyway.

I mean I've got the Token so I'd like to choose it. And I've been soloing the MoP H 5 mans and I barely can't get down 1 boss and if the 4pc is better it might actually be just enough.

[Xanthan]

After working with Collision a bit, the action list and how it uses Furious Strikes is undergoing some changes. The problem with Wild Strike (and by extention Furious Strikes) is that you lose DPS unless you can you use Wild Strike (and follow on GCDs) exactly at the 0.75s GCD mark. SimC currently does this and and since we aren't robots hardwired directly into the Blizzard Server rooms, there isn't a person on the planet who could actually do it!

To make things a little more realistic, the action list will now be using Wild Strike variably between 0.75s and (rarely) 0.85s using some complicated math (gaussian function), which should average out to 0.78s. This simple (and realistic) change causes Furious Strikes to nose dive, losing ~700 DPS on the sample profile if I recall correctly. So although Furious Strikes can look good on paper, in reality Sudden Death is king once again.

That much of a difference from a minor delay in WS GCD sounds like an indicator that your action list is making bad decisions when the delay pushes the timing of WS past some threshold, when it shouldn't actually change priorities. I.e. it's using an ability because it's the only option when the GCD comes up when it should wait .05s for another ability to come off CD, or it's failing to use another WS because it'd delay some other ability by .05s, or something along those lines. It's just not possible that the delay itself is causing that much of a DPS loss on its own. You should probably also probably test the actual delay between WS uses in game before adding an arbitrary delay to it.

[Warriorsarri]

It's in game testing that is the basis of adding a delay into Sim-C as well. We've* looked into a lot of logs, and yet to find anyone who can cosistantly pull off the 0.75sec gcd. Most top 100 ranks ranged from 0.76-0.80.

*I say we, but in reality it's mainly Col and Archi who has done all the work, I'm just kinda freeloading atm until I can figure out something useful to do.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

It's really strong at 100. JK

[Archimtiros]

That much of a difference from a minor delay in WS GCD sounds like an indicator that your action list is making bad decisions when the delay pushes the timing of WS past some threshold, when it shouldn't actually change priorities. I.e. it's using an ability because it's the only option when the GCD comes up when it should wait .05s for another ability to come off CD, or it's failing to use another WS because it'd delay some other ability by .05s, or something along those lines. It's just not possible that the delay itself is causing that much of a DPS loss on its own. You should probably also probably test the actual delay between WS uses in game before adding an arbitrary delay to it.

I think you are misconstruing what was said.

Previously, there was no delay. SimC used WS follow-on GCDs exactly 0.75s later. However this is not realistic for a variety of reasons, so Collision edited in the variable timeframe, which is very realistic. Still people grossly misunderstand the difference in 0.75s and 0.81s. You won't notice that delay, it simply happens. It isn't a difference in waiting to push a button or not. Remember, the average is still only 0.75s which is almost infinitesimal.

Also, another part you seem confused on; the action list doesn't make a choice where "if you wait <Xs WS to hit a GCD do A, if you wait >Xs use B"; there is no choice to make. The follow-on GCD will still be the same, the only difference is in how much DPS changes due to the variable amount of delay. There will always be a delay due to Haste and Headlong Rush. It is just (ever so slightly) increased due to a combination of player reaction, latency and the games own engine.

Lastly, the added delay absolutely isn't arbitrary. It was tested thoroughly and is very realistic. Even on a server where I get an average of 10ms latency, you will have delay. Neither players or the game have ever handled <1s GCDs elegantly.

[Xanthan]

I think you are misconstruing what was said.

Previously, there was no delay. SimC used WS follow-on GCDs exactly 0.75s later. However this is not realistic for a variety of reasons, so Collision edited in the variable timeframe, which is very realistic. Still people grossly misunderstand the difference in 0.75s and 0.81s. You won't notice that delay, it simply happens. It isn't a difference in waiting to push a button or not. Remember, the average is still only 0.75s which is almost infinitesimal.

Also, another part you seem confused on; the action list doesn't make a choice where "if you wait <Xs WS to hit a GCD do A, if you wait >Xs use B"; there is no choice to make. The follow-on GCD will still be the same, the only difference is in how much DPS changes due to the variable amount of delay. There will always be a delay due to Haste and Headlong Rush. It is just (ever so slightly) increased due to a combination of player reaction, latency and the games own engine.

Lastly, the added delay absolutely isn't arbitrary. It was tested thoroughly and is very realistic. Even on a server where I get an average of 10ms latency, you will have delay. Neither players or the game have ever handled <1s GCDs elegantly.

None of this addressed my point: A .05s delay on WS is absolutely incapable of producing a 700 DPS swing, on its own. It's just just not that impactful. It couldn't possibly make WS, and therefore furious strikes, that much worse.

I understand perfectly how the action list works. It's greedy. It makes a decision, if one is available, the instant the actor becomes available. If the actor becomes available .01s before an ability is off CD that it makes sense to wait for, and you don't explicitly handle that situation and force it to delay .01s so that the better ability is available and can take priority when it re-parses the action list (something a human would do without even realizing they were doing it), it won't be making optimal decisions. Likewise, if the slight delay that was added changes the GCD timing such that abilities with a higher priority are available by the next GCD, when they wouldn't have been before, that'll introduce a change in ability usage too.

The size of the swing you're claiming when this delay is introduced is better explained by an error of that nature than by the delay itself. Compare ability counts before and after the change and I wager you see something like a relative drop in WS use and an increase in BT use.

[Archimtiros]

None of this addressed my point: A .05s delay on WS is absolutely incapable of producing a 700 DPS swing, on its own. It's just just not that impactful. It couldn't possibly make WS, and therefore furious strikes, that much worse.

I understand perfectly how the action list works. It's greedy. It makes a decision, if one is available, the instant the actor becomes available. If the actor becomes available .01s before an ability is off CD that it makes sense to wait for, and you don't explicitly handle that situation and force it to delay .01s so that the better ability is available and can take priority when it re-parses the action list (something a human would do without even realizing they were doing it), it won't be making optimal decisions. The size of the swing you're claiming when this delay is introduced is better explained by an error of that nature than by the delay itself.

It isn't delaying for a better action though. While you could set up an action list that way, ours is not, because there isn't a choice to make (based on time). Our only choices are based on resources, which a slight delay to the GCD won't change.

What does change is how long you push back BT (which influences resources in itself later on). You seem to think its delaying to use a different ability, it isn't. It's merely "how much pushback actually occurs".

You are welcome to believe the sims, or not, but they have proved accurate so far.