Spec Balance and dps simulation accuracy

[PPN]

Hey,

so i have read different forums and also checked some dps simulations depending on ilvl. How accurate are they? Are we really doomed to play frost for the next like 100 ilvls???

I often played fire, tried also frost and now i wanted to give arcane a shot. While i concider it rather a stressful spec i still wanted to optimize it and maybe have some fun in raids.

But when i see the simulations that arc will always be behind frost and most likely even more because of the easy gameplay of frost...thats just frustrating

I dont even mention fire, it hardly shows up on the simulations.

Its just meh, how they just ruin some specs by letting them underperform (at least if the theorycrafting is true).

So what do you guys think?

[Deleted]

I think the arcane simulation might not be that accurate. I didn't see any word mentioning, that multistrike can generate multiple AM charges. That said I still struggle with arcane to really dish out damage. In CMs with a casual group the best I will do single target is roughly 20k. If the fight is stretched then it can go considerably lower to e.g. 13k. My gear isnt really optimized or so, you use what you get, but you can just be majorly screwed with arcane.

Opening burst without AM will destroy your dps.

[PPN]

I think the arcane simulation might not be that accurate. I didn't see any word mentioning, that multistrike can generate multiple AM charges. That said I still struggle with arcane to really dish out damage. In CMs with a casual group the best I will do single target is roughly 20k. If the fight is stretched then it can go considerably lower to e.g. 13k. My gear isnt really optimized or so, you use what you get, but you can just be majorly screwed with arcane.

Opening burst without AM will destroy your dps.

i most often land somewhere around 16k. But what i hate a lot is the Rune of Power ability, its sooooooo horrible. Its in general an awful spell, but when i use it as arcane it just stresses the shit out of me...watch mana, watch different stacks, move, cast again RoP, just to move again in 1 sec because some random ability was placed on you...really just horrible!

I switched now to Incanters Flow, its again something where you need to watch an additional stack count, but at least i feel like i can move a little bit.

[Deleted]

They're pretty damn accurate for single target.

And yes, fire in its current state is worthless.

[Frost1129]

They're pretty damn accurate for single target.

And yes, fire in its current state is worthless.

They should be pretty good in 2/3 target cleave too. Pure AoE is where I'd start giving them a bit of second looking.

The sim is not currently allowing MS to proc AM, should it be? I'm pretty sure it shouldn't.

[Komman]

I think the arcane simulation might not be that accurate.

Would you mind pointing out what you think is inaccurate?

I didn't see any word mentioning, that multistrike can generate multiple AM charges.

As far as I am aware, this does not happen. I'd love to see evidence (ie. a combat log) that shows someone getting 2 AM charges from 1 AB.

[zomgDPS]

This is a perfect thread for Komma or Frosted to use to get some info out about what SimC results mean, and how to interpret them.


To the OP, the answer to your question depends on what it is you are referring to when you ask "is it accurate?".


If you are referring to the modelling of specific game mechanics, then the SimC Mage module is more than accurate enough (there are still some nagging issues, @Komma/Frosted, is the RoP having to be recast when movement is flagged still broken? Or was it recently fixed?).


That said, if you are referring to whether they are an 'accurate description of what 'real world' performance will be', then no, it isn't. That is, not unless you specifically run a SimC that you have personally set up to model some particular fight.

As a rule of thumb, one of the key factors in the accuracy of the latter, is how well the fight is modelled by the setup you do in SimC (specifically for things such as movement and fight specific mechanics). Now, the SimC lists you normally see being thrown around by forum heroes are the "patchwerk" sims, which in all honesty, mean very little in modern raiding. I know some people hold the belief that they can at least help a little, but I do not subscribe to this idea.

Imho, these 'patchwerk' lists cause far too much misinformation and misunderstanding, more than enough to outweigh any slight potential benefit they will have.

[Komman]

(there are still some nagging issues, @Komma/Frosted, is the RoP having to be recast when movement is flagged still broken? Or was it recently fixed?).

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe Frost fixed it to "whenever you move more than 8 yards after placing RoP, you will lose the buff". The APL tells robomage to recast it whenever it loses the buff, so yes, it should be working. I'm not completely satisfied with it, because I think we often move a lot inside our Rune without being forced out of it. This will require some detailed work on it though.

That said, if you are referring to whether they are an 'accurate description of what 'real world' performance will be', then no, it isn't. That is, not unless you specifically run a SimC that you have personally set up to model some particular fight.

As a rule of thumb, one of the key factors in the accuracy of the latter, is how well the fight is modelled by the setup you do in SimC (specifically for things such as movement and fight specific mechanics). Now, the SimC lists you normally see being thrown around by forum heroes are the "patchwerk" sims, which in all honesty, mean very little in modern raiding. I know some people hold the belief that they can at least help a little, but I do not subscribe to this idea.

Imho, these 'patchwerk' lists cause far too much misinformation and misunderstanding, more than enough to outweigh any slight potential benefit they will have.

I agree with most of what you said about how "SimC does not reflect real raiding". To me, the main value of patchwerk sims come from rotation analysis; At what level of mana or Arcane Charges should we cast Arcane Blast instead of Arcane Missiles? How much of a DPS gain does "pyro camping" actually give? In what order should we prioritize and use Brain Freeze, Fingers of Frost, and talents? All of these questions can be partially answered by simulations, which effectively act as complex damage calculators for our spells.