So We Got Passed in The Tuning Hotfix

[Deleted]

I realy dont understand you guys ? Were a class that can only do one thing, DPS, and yet every class in the game has one spec that can do that better than us, and if youve been doing chalenge modes with equal geared, equal skilled ppl, disconsidering the "Blade Flurry rules all on trash" detail, you know this is true, you dont need sims. How exactly are we in a good spot ? Rogues need bufs, Assassination desperatly needs a buf and combat needs an overhaul cause its the slowest spec in the game wich is resulting in over 50% of the damage done beeing auto-attacks + instant poison, its not only bad its retarded and not fun at all.

Where is the evidence though? Blizzard (thankfully) don't balance around people throwing their hands in the air screaming "I got trounced by Class X using Spec Y on Trash Pack Z - this is unacceptable and I should be top!"

I've done 8/8 gold with "equal geared equal skilled people" this week and kept up no problem - search Taoshiofechoes on warcraftlogs if you want numerical evidence.

The whole Assassination thing is because it hasn't really had any encounters to shine in yet - you're not going to be strong with it in 5 mans as by the time you've thrown some Ruptures about it's all dead anyway. Yes it can suck if it is your favorite spec but loads of us have been pointing it out for years now, combats instant on demand cleave is (in most cases) going to outshine what the other 2 can do in the same situation. The specs don't need a damage buff but the aoe toolkit of them both does warrant some attention as the Siege trend of Combat for aoe looks to be continuing.

X specs beating us on Patchwerk sim is daft to use in an argument even the simmers themselves highlight there are no patchwerk fights coming up - all of them have mechanics which as a Rogue you're in a great position to mitigate. Rogues power has not been in its raw dps for some time now - the defensive toolkit is what makes Rogues strong (feint, cloak, vanish, shadowstep/bos) it lets us stay in the fight longer than other melee can and they probably balance around this fact.

[Daws]

They'll get to rogues eventually we always seem to be the least important class to devs and that's likely down to that we perform usually as they want us to so not much to change. What I'd personally like is energy regen to get sorted above 35% of health (playing assassination by the way) it's slow as hell then at 35% it's fast as hell. To me this has made the fights weird because other classes are behaving in a similar fashion getting a boss to the 35-40% is slow (often find myself auto attacking for quite some time before i can use my next ability) then it goes so quick there's no chance for rogues to beef up there dps scores in the low health side of the boss cause boom he's dead.

[DakonBlackblade]

Where is the evidence though? Blizzard (thankfully) don't balance around people throwing their hands in the air screaming "I got trounced by Class X using Spec Y on Trash Pack Z - this is unacceptable and I should be top!"

I've done 8/8 gold with "equal geared equal skilled people" this week and kept up no problem - search Taoshiofechoes on warcraftlogs if you want numerical evidence.

So you didnt disconsider the "Blade Flurry rules all on trash" detail. Its all fun to do 60k dps on trash packs on a chalenge mode, only problem is raid bosses arent trash packs. Regardless of DPS combat needs an overhaul, I feel like putting my foot trough the screen after I press Sinister Strike for like the 4th time in a row and my character says "not enought energy". Make Sinister 30 energy again and when haste goes out of controll bring its cost back up, no point in making Combat the slowest spec ever to exist in WoW.

[ymirsson]

So you didnt disconsider the "Blade Flurry rules all on trash" detail. Its all fun to do 60k dps on trash packs on a chalenge mode, only problem is raid bosses arent trash packs. Regardless of DPS combat needs an overhaul, I feel like putting my foot trough the screen after I press Sinister Strike for like the 4th time in a row and my character says "not enought energy". Make Sinister 30 energy again and when haste goes out of controll bring its cost back up, no point in making Combat the slowest spec ever to exist in WoW.

It's not like Mutilate costs less energy. "Slowest spec in WoW" has to be the most mindnumbing, meaningless, retarded hyperbole to ever exist on the internet, causing instant virginity and loss of brain matter for the person saying it.

And for the love of god, do not use Blade Flurry on single targets. You didn't, did you? Or did you do? Don't!

[Sicarius87]

Single target still struggling for combat, it's not too bad for Sub - maybe just run 2 specs for trash and boss encounters.

I don't think there's anything wrong with out DPS.

The melee thing is kind've a problem but i imagine it'll get fixed.

lol because trash dps is SOOOOOO important. Right?

[Deleted]

lol because trash dps is SOOOOOO important. Right?

At least in challenge modes, it is more than 50% of success to deal with trash quickly. Plus lots of fights in Warlords raids have adds or cleave opportunities, where combat is bound to shine.

[Tamrik]

there's 2 things that annoy me the most on this whole thing.

we are PURE dps players, and is it true that we have to be AT LEAST matched up with the other ones, in special with Hunter since we share stuff, today theres no aspect on where a Rogue is better than a Hunter, simply None.

on the other hand, these people said couple months ago, that the rogue class is the one with the WORST playing % of all, that means that if the rogue does not have Legendary shit, the people runs away from this class.

aiming to Kill stuff quickly, with a progress guild semi-decent at least, the message that Blizz is sending righ now is;

"You wanna be dps? agi user? leather? GO FOR MONK SINCE THEY DOUBLE THE ROGUE DPS."

[Deleted]

we are PURE dps players, and is it true that we have to be AT LEAST matched up with the other ones, in special with Hunter since we share stuff, today theres no aspect on where a Rogue is better than a Hunter, simply None.

Cloak and feint give you better up time than the hunter in many cases. Other classes would kill for the bis defensives bestowed upon rogues and using them is what sets you apart.

aiming to Kill stuff quickly, with a progress guild semi-decent at least, the message that Blizz is sending righ now is;

"You wanna be dps? agi user? leather? GO FOR MONK SINCE THEY DOUBLE THE ROGUE DPS."

*Conclusion drawn from simc and noxxic simulations in patchwerk setting, actual data sets unavailable until raids commence, does not take into account rogues suitability to mechanic mitigation or defensive use, actual DPS may vary, batteries not included, warranty void if killing spree into void zone, always shadow step responsibly.

[Dracodraco]

we are PURE dps players, and is it true that we have to be AT LEAST matched up with the other ones, in special with Hunter since we share stuff, today theres no aspect on where a Rogue is better than a Hunter, simply None.

As a hunter who has been directed here to look at the luls of people complaining that rogues should be buffed after seeing Taoshi in action in CM's (both on trash and singletarget), I can only say - why should you get matched with hunters? We just went an entire expansion where hunters were second-rate citizens compared to rogues. You have incredible defensives, great mobility, and tools/specs for almost every scenario. I'd be happy just if my defensive didn't prohibit me from attacking while it was up <.<.

[Trubo]

So you didnt disconsider the "Blade Flurry rules all on trash" detail. Its all fun to do 60k dps on trash packs on a chalenge mode, only problem is raid bosses arent trash packs. Regardless of DPS combat needs an overhaul, I feel like putting my foot trough the screen after I press Sinister Strike for like the 4th time in a row and my character says "not enought energy". Make Sinister 30 energy again and when haste goes out of controll bring its cost back up, no point in making Combat the slowest spec ever to exist in WoW.

There are plenty of instances in Highmaul and BRF that you'll be able to use Blade Flurry on raid fights. What will separate good and bad Rogues is proper timing of Blade Flurry. You might not end up as high as during Challenge Mode trash, but having access to one of the easiest cleave abilities is quite the boon to have.

lol because trash dps is SOOOOOO important. Right?

For Challenge Modes, yes. Trash DPS is the most important DPS.

As for people crying about Rogues not being brought because of lower simmed DPS:

1. Sim data on patchwerk is silly when pretty much no patchwerk this coming tier
2. Cloak of Shadows, Feint, and Sprint are ridiculously good short cd abilities that allow you to either increase uptime on boss or handle mechanics that would probably kill someone else.
3. Arms has the most mind numbingly boring melee rotation. Be happy that you are like Arms in that regard.

[Killua Zoldyck]

Where is the evidence though? Blizzard (thankfully) don't balance around people throwing their hands in the air screaming "I got trounced by Class X using Spec Y on Trash Pack Z - this is unacceptable and I should be top!"

I've done 8/8 gold with "equal geared equal skilled people" this week and kept up no problem - search Taoshiofechoes on warcraftlogs if you want numerical evidence.

The whole Assassination thing is because it hasn't really had any encounters to shine in yet - you're not going to be strong with it in 5 mans as by the time you've thrown some Ruptures about it's all dead anyway. Yes it can suck if it is your favorite spec but loads of us have been pointing it out for years now, combats instant on demand cleave is (in most cases) going to outshine what the other 2 can do in the same situation. The specs don't need a damage buff but the aoe toolkit of them both does warrant some attention as the Siege trend of Combat for aoe looks to be continuing.

X specs beating us on Patchwerk sim is daft to use in an argument even the simmers themselves highlight there are no patchwerk fights coming up - all of them have mechanics which as a Rogue you're in a great position to mitigate. Rogues power has not been in its raw dps for some time now - the defensive toolkit is what makes Rogues strong (feint, cloak, vanish, shadowstep/bos) it lets us stay in the fight longer than other melee can and they probably balance around this fact.

Such a legit post, need a like function!

[Deleted]

Actual DPS may vary, batteries not included, warranty void if killing spree into void zone, always shadow step responsibly.

Don't drink and Adrenaline Rush at the same time

[Deleted]

You are also referring to default simulationcraft profiles while on this very forum we have profiles that offer about 10% dps increase over default ones (for mythic). If you take that into account we suddenly don't look that bad.

[Deleted]

I find it hilarious how melee-unfriendly the current content is and you not even get rewarded by better dps. Huntards stay safe in range and kill the meters. Love the balance... they only have to do this because of stupid pvp I guess. Because of pvp we lost our burst too.

That's bullshit and you know it. It would be a nobrainer to give combat a dps boost, nobody would play it in pvp anyway even if you increased it's sustained dps.
Heck you could give raids/dungeons bonus dps mechanics for meele range if you wanted. Meeles are weak because there is no effort to make them stronger.

[Deleted]

It is not just rogues, the balance is off in a very disturbing way for a lot of classes:

Fire mages were below tanking specs, arcane mages only slightly better than that. (should be fixed with recent buffs hopefully )
Frost mages are ok, but need gear to perform that way. Spamming frostbolt at lower gear levels without any procs is sad.
They could use a frostbolt buff, or an increased chance to proc Fingers of Frost or Brain Freeze.

Warlocks in general were crap. The recent hotfixes should make them middle of the pack, but not much more than that I am afraid.

DPs shamans: no comment

The only pure dps spec that is competitive is hunters, and even they are pinholed into one spec, since the other two are crappy as well.

But what pissed the hell out of me is Gladiator. Why was there need for a gladiator stance?
Instead of fixing dps shamans, warlocks, rogues, mages and even shadow priests and tuning those classes/specs right, they had to add a third dps spec to a hybrid that already had two and they did not even bother to tune the two DPS specs they already had? (Fury and Arms were crappy too, and still are)
I have never seen such a messed up DPS chart before.

Basically the best thing you can be right now is a Melee DPS spec from a hybrid with a tanking spec (WW monk, DK, Glad warrior, retri pala or Druid)

I am so baffled.

I hope results will vary in a real raid setting.

[fredsterr]

It is not just rogues, the balance is off in a very disturbing way for a lot of classes:

Fire mages were below tanking specs, arcane mages only slightly better than that. (should be fixed with recent buffs hopefully )
Frost mages are ok, but need gear to perform that way. Spamming frostbolt at lower gear levels without any procs is sad.
They could use a frostbolt buff, or an increased chance to proc Fingers of Frost or Brain Freeze.

Warlocks in general were crap. The recent hotfixes should make them middle of the pack, but not much more than that I am afraid.

DPs shamans: no comment

The only pure dps spec that is competitive is hunters, and even they are pinholed into one spec, since the other two are crappy as well.

But what pissed the hell out of me is Gladiator. Why was there need for a gladiator stance?
Instead of fixing dps shamans, warlocks, rogues, mages and even shadow priests and tuning those classes/specs right, they had to add a third dps spec to a hybrid that already had two and they did not even bother to tune the two DPS specs they already had? (Fury and Arms were crappy too, and still are)
I have never seen such a messed up DPS chart before.

Basically the best thing you can be right now is a Melee DPS spec from a hybrid with a tanking spec (WW monk, DK, Glad warrior, retri pala or Druid)

I am so baffled.

I hope results will vary in a real raid setting.

I agree with what you said about mages, warlocks arn't doing so bad in heroics at least now since the buff.

Ele shaman actually isn't bad on boss fights , beating me and a hunter on most fights (all 3 specs) slightly better gear than me and the hunter. -key with them and most classes it seems ilvl does not mean upgrade even though it could be about 10 ilvl higher.

Assa isn't a bad spec and I beat hunters with it now that I use shadowcraft religiously with what to wear and gem, dps jumped up almost 2k just from taking out mastry gems and putting in crit. When I get another piece of gear with an ever so sightly upgrade I'm sure my stat priority will change and I'll be swapping out those crit gems with multi strike or mastery again.

I was happy to see reforging go away...but it seems now more than ever regardless of how much agi upgrade the peice has gotta take it to the spread sheet to see if it is actually good at this point in time with the current gear you have...it's gotten worse

[rogueMatthias]

I don't understand all this anger.

This is the first tuning pass of many (you can expect bigger passes as Highmaul starts as the devs have said over and over). .

I dunno. I feel like Rogues are forever the kid that does OK at school, not great and not bad, so the parents just don't really pay him any attention. I'm used to seeing months and months with NO blue posts or fixes at all to rogues.

Then one FINALLY comes out I'll be like "OMFG There's finally a blue post addressing an issue with Rogues.."
And the blue post is like "Please keep discussion about this issue into this other thread"

[Karry]

^ So true. It's like they dont care at all about rogues. I mean these people dont want to change the CP icon becasue of how "iconic" it is. These are the people who you want balancing your game? Jeez...If it were up to me, after implementing the "combo points" on so many classes below the character in a more special bar...I wouldnt think twice about implementing one on rogue. They are so lazy when it comes to rogues and they constantly make sub harder and harder to play while not rewarding the spec enough.

Backstab is a joke no matter what anyone says. Even with Find Weakness up it hits like a wet noodle and without it...dont even try. They added this piss poor bleed advancing mechanic to sub which it really did not need. Backstab still cant hit from the front ( just call it Dispatch2 or smth who the hell cares the did it to muti, do it with sub ). If it did more dmg from the back, ok, I can live with that but doing miniscule dmg with your main abilityh and then criting on 5 points evisc! + energy for 30k on a 300K HP player with absorbs and other stuff on him is just DEPRESSiNG, especially after seeing what other classes can do.

[Sorthalis]

http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings#BiS,max,1

Just be thankful you aren't a warrior.


Realistic 630 ilvl: http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings#630,real,1

[Maelstrom51]

http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings#BiS,max,1

Just be thankful you aren't a warrior.


Realistic 630 ilvl: http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings#630,real,1

You realize that the top warrior spec is above the top rogue spec in both of your links, right?