Sub AoE rotations

[smana7]

Hey guys, I just read Noxe's (from Method) Sub guide and here's his AOE rotation:

"This is actually pretty interesting because we should replace Backstab with Fan of Knives on 2 targets already. The main reason behind this is Empowered Fan of Knives which drastically increases amount of finishers we can use. On top of that we should keep Rupture up on all targets and refrain from using Hemorrhage at all. Death from Above outperforms Shadow Reflection on 3 and more targets. Replace Eviscerate with Crimson Tempest on 2 targets already. If Find Weakness is up then replace Eviscerate with Crimson Tempest on 3 targets."

Everywhere else I've read seems to suggest using CT only to keep the bleed up for 2-3 targets while Evis-ing one of them. When there are 4 or more targets switch to CT altogether.
Anyone know which one is correct? Is using CT with 2 targets without FW a DPS gain?

[Kyarxadron]

I Second this, I wanna try sub for twin ogrons, and 2 target rotation really bothers me, I tested a bit on 2 dummys and it seems like CT has better results, but Im not entirelly sure.

I checked Jdance(1st place sub on twins) logs, seems like he is using evis, also he is using backtab instead of FoK when FW is up.

[Jdance]

I Second this, I wanna try sub for twin ogrons, and 2 target rotation really bothers me, I tested a bit on 2 dummys and it seems like CT has better results, but Im not entirelly sure.

I checked Jdance(1st place sub on twins) logs, seems like he is using evis, also he is using backtab instead of FoK when FW is up.

yeah i've played this spec for 2 weeks i don't really know what im doing

backstabbing into FW seems correct to me but I have no idea

[Ryme]

Looks like old information from the simc thread here, it used to the case in simulation that using CT at two targets was a gain, I can't recall the bug now but there was one. Since it's fix here's what Simc says your AoE rotation should be (NOTE: this was simulated at 695 item level):

2-3 targets: Cycle rupture on all mobs
3-4 targets: Roll the CT dot
5+ targets: Replace Eviscerate with CT

FoK replaces Backstab at 2+ targets.

[Kyarxadron]

We use FoK even if FW is up, right?

I'm new to simcraft, but still i tried to sim myself with your script and adding &debuff.find_weakness.down to FoK line seems like a dps loss, Im not sure if I did it right tho

[Ryme]

Yeah I'm seeing it as a loss, but the disparity reduces with lower gear, best to try simulating it on your own character to be sure.

[Slipspace]

Looks like old information from the simc thread here, it used to the case in simulation that using CT at two targets was a gain, I can't recall the bug now but there was one. Since it's fix here's what Simc says your AoE rotation should be (NOTE: this was simulated at 695 item level):

2-3 targets: Cycle rupture on all mobs
3-4 targets: Roll the CT dot
5+ targets: Replace Eviscerate with CT

FoK replaces Backstab at 2+ targets.

By 'roll the CT dot', you just mean refresh it when it's about to drop in order to maintain the SV debuff for FoK and otherwise use eviscerate on one target?

[Clunky]

By 'roll the CT dot', you just mean refresh it when it's about to drop in order to maintain the SV debuff for FoK and otherwise use eviscerate on one target?

I'm not the one you were asking but yes, this seems to be the best DPS for 3-4 targets though I don't seem to get THAT many eviscerates off between rolling the dot and keeping rupture up on my targets.

[Slipspace]

I'm not the one you were asking but yes, this seems to be the best DPS for 3-4 targets though I don't seem to get THAT many eviscerates off between rolling the dot and keeping rupture up on my targets.

Is it exactly 3 mobs that I cycle rupture on and not the 4th? And with 5+ targets, do I continue to rupture 3 targets?

[Xaryen]

Looks like old information from the simc thread here, it used to the case in simulation that using CT at two targets was a gain, I can't recall the bug now but there was one. Since it's fix here's what Simc says your AoE rotation should be (NOTE: this was simulated at 695 item level):

2-3 targets: Cycle rupture on all mobs
3-4 targets: Roll the CT dot
5+ targets: Replace Eviscerate with CT

FoK replaces Backstab at 2+ targets.

tried simming it (10th Dec simcraft version)with ~641ilvl and completely replacing CT over Evis seems to be 500 dps gain on 2 targets. Using evis over CT during FW is another 100dps on top of that.

Is it exactly 3 mobs that I cycle rupture on and not the 4th? And with 5+ targets, do I continue to rupture 3 targets?

Rupture everything(if the mobs are going to last long enough ofc) up to 6-8 targets, the breakpoint seems to be individual. After that completely drop rupture and spam CT.

[Deleted]

I am finding that my AoE DPS is quite low even though I (think) am doing a good rotation.
I think that my problem is that I don't know if I should use Rapture and CT with 5 combo points, 1, 2, 3..

If anyone can explain in detal the correct AoE rotation + Combo points used on skills I would REALLY appreciate it.

I have understood that I need to use FoK as a combo builder if I'm fighting against 2 or more enemies.
I have understood that I need to rupture them if I'm fighting 2-3 enemies. 5 combo points rupture?
I have understood that I need to use CT if they are 4 enemies. 5 combo points CT?
I dont understand the meaning of replacing Eviscerate with CT if they are 5 or more. Does it mean that I just have to spam FoK and CT without using anything else?
I dont understand when to use Eviscerate. Do I use it if I'm fighting 2-3 enemies and I have already applied rupture on all of them?

This is more complicated than it looks to be honest xD

THANKS FOR YOUR HELP!

[Oggiva]

You never use anything but 5 cp finishers.

[Kursed]

2-3 targets: Cycle rupture on all mobs
3-4 targets: Roll the CT dot
5+ targets: Replace Eviscerate with CT

FoK replaces Backstab at 2+ targets.

So what i get from this is that, on 2-3 targets keep rupture up on all 2-3. That part I understand but once all my ruptures are up should i be using Evis or CT as my finisher untill I need to refresh rupture?

Then for 3-4 targets, keep CT dot up and just spam FoK into evis? And should I be putting ruptures on them? (If theyre going to live long enough)

Thats really my only point of confusion.

[celinamuna]

tried simming it (10th Dec simcraft version)with ~641ilvl and completely replacing CT over Evis seems to be 500 dps gain on 2 targets. Using evis over CT during FW is another 100dps on top of that.

Did you FoK for all of fight and only BS during FW ?
Since :

FoK replaces Backstab at 2+ targets.

[Xaryen]

I didnt BS at all, using it even only during FW appears to be a dps loss. I basically took Ryme's APL imported my toon into it and changed:

actions.finisher+=/crimson_tempest,if=(active_enemies>=3&dot.crimson_tempest_dot.ticks_remain<=2&combo_points=5)|active_enemies>=5&(cooldown.death_from_above.remains>0|!talent.death_from_above.enabled)

to

actions.finisher+=/crimson_tempest,if=(active_enemies>=2&dot.crimson_tempest_dot.ticks_remain<=2&combo_points=5)|active_enemies>=5&(cooldown.death_from_above.remains>0|!talent.death_from_above.enabled)&debuff.find_weakness.down

[celinamuna]

Hmm.
A non negligible part of the benefit that we get from MS is due to BS/Ambush pushing our rupture forward. Since we are unable to do that on multiple targets at once (and according to this sim, BS at all), would that not push mastery as #1 stat in our priority ?

[Xaryen]

It indeed does, multistrike stays slightly better at 2 targets(presumably due to ambush) but after that mastery starts pulling significantly ahead, relative values of the 3 remaining stats stay about the same.

#n MS Mastery Crit
ST: 2.27 1.89 1.67
2T: 3.13 3.04 2.06
3T: 3.86 3.97 2.49
5T: 5.29 6.61 3.54

[Deleted]

Looks like old information from the simc thread here, it used to the case in simulation that using CT at two targets was a gain, I can't recall the bug now but there was one. Since it's fix here's what Simc says your AoE rotation should be (NOTE: this was simulated at 695 item level):

2-3 targets: Cycle rupture on all mobs
3-4 targets: Roll the CT dot
5+ targets: Replace Eviscerate with CT

FoK replaces Backstab at 2+ targets.

>2 or ≥2?

10char

[Khas]

>2 or ≥2?

10char

If you are asking about when Backstab is replaced by FoK, the answer is on two targets.

[Deleted]

If you are asking about when Backstab is replaced by FoK, the answer is on two targets.

Yeah I should have been more specific. I have still been seeing good Rogues using Backstab on 2 targets except when they are desperate need of CPs. It's definitely a good question as it obviously is not THAT common knowledge yet