Survival: FS vs LW

[rickhunterr]

I am comparing one constant (first hundred digits of pi calculated by a computer) with another constant (damage values in WoW.) If you weren't so busy pulling out terms from the Wikipedia page of pi, you might understand that.

First off the first two hundred digits of pie were calculated centuries before the computer was invented. If you want to link sources to wikipedia.com at least use them before you make such an ignorant statement. Also the damage value of wow abilities are not constant, as they are affected by when you use an ability, what buffs you have, how much focus you have, what abilities are on cooldown, and if you are moving(ie focusing shot). To say they are constant is an entirely false statement. The fact that the values of damage move is the reason they are simmed.

You are not a top raider, top % of hunters nor are any of your interpretations or analysis of logs and sims correct. You hold no value to this community and in fact are doing a disservice because you do nothing but spread misinformation. All you are doing at this point is trolling and shoveling even more garbage into this community than what was thought possible.

WOW what an unfounded and elitist statement. Knowing my class and playing with Paragons are two different things. Getting outside buffs and cheesing or ignoring mechanics does not mean I don't know my class. If I was spreading misinformation, you could pull up logs and say look here in actual data what you are saying is wrong, but no you can't, you say look at these made up numbers from a sim these are right, logs are irrelevant. I actually went through the effort of pulling up logs and testing both talents. No one has looked at the logs and said "look here you screwed up the FS rotation here, here and here, and that is why the numbers are wrong" No instead you point to imaginary numbers and spit them out like they are the bible and infallible. Its funny how when confronted with actual tangible information you say disregard it, and you must be trolling, instead of actually evaluating the information provided. Sims are not the bible or the end all be all final word on talents, they are a guide that should be held up and compared to real logs. Instead of saying logs are irrelevant they don't matter.

[Ilgaktroop]

No, because the sim ignores a lot of variables. A fact you continue to ignore. This is also assuming there aren't flaws in the sims, which is often the case.

Give me one variable that a sim can't handle through the use of modifiers.

Also the damage value of wow abilities are not constant, as they are affected by when you use an ability, what buffs you have, how much focus you have, what abilities are on cooldown, and if you are moving(ie focusing shot).

I wonder what would happen if SimC had a simulate and options tab to deal with all of those including syntax for movement that you can add to the profiles.

In all seriousness, there needs to be another hunter moderator if eschatological can't keep a leash on trolls for 3 weeks at a time. This is getting ridiculous and is the main reason why everybody is migrating back to Elitist Jerks.

[Azortharion]

Escha is on holiday vacation thing, will be back in some days.

[rickhunterr]

Give me one variable that a sim can't handle through the use of modifiers.



I wonder what would happen if SimC had a simulate and options tab to deal with all of those including syntax for movement that you can add to the profiles.

Huh, I wonder why, when I asked why weren't fights simmed as movement the response I got was," because you can play like there is no movement." or "because sims force movement where a player may not move for that duration or time" again showing more weakness for claiming sims are the be all end all final word on hunter theorycrafting.

In all seriousness, there needs to be another hunter moderator if eschatological can't keep a leash on trolls for 3 weeks at a time. This is getting ridiculous and is the main reason why everybody is migrating back to Elitist Jerks.

Maybe because asking legitimate questions providing valid logs and discussing talent choices is what this forum is for, and is not trolling. Trolling is calling someone a troll because you don't want to listen to what they say, or even try to refute what they say with actual data from logs. Sims=/= Data. Its like comparing weather to the weather forecast and saying "what the weather is is irrelevant the, forecast says...."

[Azortharion]

You win, rickhunterr, I am #trolled.

[Deleted]

with lone wolfs SV i can achieve similar dps to MM ( at least it looks like similar on dps charts) but with focusin shot the opportunities are much bigger, aoe ones especially, it's very hard for me to pool focus for barrage as SV without Focusing Shot, while with it, it's basicilly 1 cast and i'm ready to aoe, same goes for multidotting, especially 2 targets, if don't have TotH proc( and it happens quite often since it's rng based ) dotting second target it's pain in the ass ( since i also have to to keep barrage on CD with 2 targets).

Focusing Shot solves those problems, and on top of that while i'm simming myself, Focusing Shot is superior to Lone Wolf, i imagine i coudn't work with it over Tectus when i i have to move consntaly for 15 seconds, but rest of the fights it's more than doable if u plan ahead ur movement.

[Rackfu]

Good god people, it is not hard to understand.

- Sims show you what the spec is hardwired/coded in the software to do even though in game experiences will often not resemble it. This information is good for helping form some ideas about talent choices/rotations/stat weights.

- Logs show you what the spec is capable of doing under very extreme (exploit, guild help, tons of luck, etc) circumstances even though most player's in game experience will often not resemble it. Logs are good for helping form some ideas about what talent choices and rotations feel like in game and what, if any, difficulties they encounter with them.

Both sims and logs are flawed by nature.

The real truth lies somewhere in between and it is up to the players to chat in forums about their experiences and come together to offer up the best ideas/solutions.


NOT FUCKING ARGUE OVER STUPID SEMANTICS AND WHAT IS BETTER.

[Deleted]

to somewhat defend azortharion as beeing blamed and arrogant. u guys should finally understand that this game is based on pure math and so u can simulate stuff. there is a reason those simulations exist. u guys are not the ones to blame the practise of math in a game where u doing the mistakes. using theory in praxis based on real numbers from simulations means u are going to get as near as possible towards theory and not using mistakes u do in movement und focus management as an excuse for your failure.
it's aswell the truth that most of competitive hunters in good raiding guilds are not listed in public logs cause of the nature pf progress.

[Huggykaze]

to somewhat defend azortharion as beeing blamed and arrogant. u guys should finally understand that this game is based on pure math and so u can simulate stuff. there is a reason those simulations exist. u guys are not the ones to blame the practise of math in a game where u doing the mistakes. using theory in praxis based on real numbers from simulations means u are going to get as near as possible towards theory and not using mistakes u do in movement und focus management as an excuse for your failure.
it's aswell the truth that most of competitive hunters in good raiding guilds are not listed in public logs cause of the nature pf progress.

What people need to understand (in both camps) is that SimC is just theory and potential dps, it doesn't take skill cap into account, random shit etc. It tells you how much dps can you achieve with perfect execution and average procs. I'm not saying that everybody below that is a noob or should l2p, but there's always room for improvement. I for one, after using it for over 2 weeks, find FS extremely comfortable and elegant option giving me more room for mistakes and more time to enjoy the fight instead of watching the timers, as I can easily get enough focus for half of my abilities. At the same time Lone Wolf became irritating with its need to cast Cobra Shots all the time.

What follows, FS gives me better dps on most tries/encounters, as sims state. You may argue about advantages and disadvantages of both talents, but FS has higher potential and that remains well founded theory, contrary to opposite statement.

As stated, SimC is theory/potential, Logs are single cases affected by procs, mechanics, skill of a player. Unless you write an app which takes all hunter logs, divides them by the talent and then takes mean of each set, SimC remains more reliable source. And even such application is not completely trustworthy with set sizes around 1000-2000

[Deleted]

What people need to understand (in both camps) is that SimC is just theory and potential dps, it doesn't take skill cap into account, random shit etc. It tells you how much dps can you achieve with perfect execution and average procs. I'm not saying that everybody below that is a noob or should l2p, but there's always room for improvement. I for one, after using it for over 2 weeks, find FS extremely comfortable and elegant option giving me more room for mistakes and more time to enjoy the fight instead of watching the timers, as I can easily get enough focus for half of my abilities. At the same time Lone Wolf became irritating with its need to cast Cobra Shots all the time.

What follows, FS gives me better dps on most tries/encounters, as sims state. You may argue about advantages and disadvantages of both talents, but FS has higher potential and that remains well founded theory, contrary to opposite statement.

As stated, SimC is theory/potential, Logs are single cases affected by procs, mechanics, skill of a player. Unless you write an app which takes all hunter logs, divides them by the talent and then takes mean of each set, SimC remains more reliable source. And even such application is not completely trustworthy with set sizes around 1000-2000

i guess u somewhat get the point but i m not sure. english is not my native language so i kinda freestyle theorycraft shit in my own words :>.
first off im kinda confused about ur "FS" statement. lw is the talent which shows more potential, cause it frees u more from being rooted in place where RNG factors disturb ur environment. that'S why probably every singe fcking boss in highmaul is played with lw by most of all hunters. lw is by far more forgiving in practise, but that does not mean its better. it's simple. lw is better to play with as average gamer/player cause its forgiving. if u are really skilled and good at the encounter, FS is better especially when aoe is a matter in this fight. those who fail in rotation and on planing movement are better of taking lw where the geeks and gods pick FS.

one thing ppl gotta understand about logs and sims. if u gonna open simcraft.org or sim ur character it shows an average log out of many single simulations. it doesnt show u how lucky u are to be placed on a good warcraftlog rank. ofc rng is a matter. u will never rank in a fight cheesed by 1000 topgeared hunters without cheesing the fight and not having rng on ur side. but even this "cheesing" is still based on math, has its own limits and can be simulated and argued about. that doesnt prove simulations wrong what ppl are doing cause all those cases are still in range of true simulations and based on simple math.
to make my point more clear here is a simple (just an simple example, not based on reality)

if simulations show -if u are using a cheesing tactic on a boss- that u gonna have more dps average with perfect execution with specc-combination 'a)' than with specc-comination 'b)' its aswell true if u got the same amount of good rnd with crits/multistrikes/certain boss mechanics not hitting u (voids/pushbacks whatever). specc a) still outperforms specc b ) no matter what. if this is not true in a single comparism of 1 fight to another, rng and player execution was not the same.

this game is based on math. timeframes, cooldowns, and formula. all this is calculatable. timeframes and short cds like explo/cs and stuff making room for changeable stuff in a fixed timeframe. if practise shows difference in numbers according to simulations there is a mistake in the simulations.
players do mistakes, math does not.

[ro9ue]

Lone Wolf because I don't have to use a pet.

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Its like comparing weather to the weather forecast and saying "what the weather is is irrelevant the, forecast says...."

Lol. So true, I had a guildmate who loved playing Fury warrior but Arms was "supposed" to be better. He pulled way better numbers as Fury as well. There was an officer that was like you should be playing Arms, it's better according to this chart over here. Thank god I was the GM at the time I could override that shit and just let him play what he wanted.

It's sad to know though theres tons of people in "hardcore" guilds getting pushed into playing something they don't like over a robotic simulation. Let me repeat that... People are logging into a game to achieve a robotic number instead of the goal of finding a spec you like and having fun.

If you played WoW over the years, you know there was a point where a dps spec wasn't even viable. We are now in a spot where all dps specs are, despite what people say, pretty balanced. There are gimmick fights with outliers, but at the end of the day, no one in any reasonable guild will be sat for someone else because of their class. Not to mention through all my years playing WoW, times being casual and times raiding in a server first guild, have I not seen a player with a "bottom" spec on that holy simcraft chart smoke a "top" spec. That chart doesn't account for a living breathing player reacting to mechanics and a real fight. Players who are just good at their spec and more comfortable with their talent choices and glyphs will always best a player trying to fudge something because it's something they "have to play".

[Huggykaze]

i guess u somewhat get the point but i m not sure. english is not my native language so i kinda freestyle theorycraft shit in my own words :>.
first off im kinda confused about ur "FS" statement. lw is the talent which shows more potential, cause it frees u more from being rooted in place where RNG factors disturb ur environment. that'S why probably every singe fcking boss in highmaul is played with lw by most of all hunters. lw is by far more forgiving in practise, but that does not mean its better. it's simple. lw is better to play with as average gamer/player cause its forgiving. if u are really skilled and good at the encounter, FS is better especially when aoe is a matter in this fight. those who fail in rotation and on planing movement are better of taking lw where the geeks and gods pick FS.

one thing ppl gotta understand about logs and sims. if u gonna open simcraft.org or sim ur character it shows an average log out of many single simulations. it doesnt show u how lucky u are to be placed on a good warcraftlog rank. ofc rng is a matter. u will never rank in a fight cheesed by 1000 topgeared hunters without cheesing the fight and not having rng on ur side. but even this "cheesing" is still based on math, has its own limits and can be simulated and argued about. that doesnt prove simulations wrong what ppl are doing cause all those cases are still in range of true simulations and based on simple math.
to make my point more clear here is a simple (just an simple example, not based on reality)

if simulations show -if u are using a cheesing tactic on a boss- that u gonna have more dps average with perfect execution with specc-combination 'a)' than with specc-comination 'b)' its aswell true if u got the same amount of good rnd with crits/multistrikes/certain boss mechanics not hitting u (voids/pushbacks whatever). specc a) still outperforms specc b ) no matter what. if this is not true in a single comparism of 1 fight to another, rng and player execution was not the same.

this game is based on math. timeframes, cooldowns, and formula. all this is calculatable. timeframes and short cds like explo/cs and stuff making room for changeable stuff in a fixed timeframe. if practise shows difference in numbers according to simulations there is a mistake in the simulations.
players do mistakes, math does not.

You misunderstood what I meant with 'potential'. DPS potential, LW has less dps potential than perfectly executed FS. LW is not more forgiving, it penalises your mistakes much more as you have no passive dot in form of a pet ticking all fight long. FS let's you burn focus more freely because even if you fail you can easily get back to 70-80 focus in no time. What we do when using FS is something mages, boomkins and locks have been doing for years and somehow they still manage to achieve crazy dps. I am neither god (but sure, call me that, I like it) nor geek and I still run FS because except for occasional canceling due to random movement (which usually isn't so random and is timer based) this talent gives you way more room for mistakes and makes rotation more interesting and smooth.

As for 2nd part of your post, as I said if we gathered all the logs and took mean/average DPS value for each spec/talents result would probably be very close to what sims show you. As you have said, SimC results are average of many parses (usually 10k). But saying that logs disprove anything is a joke.

[rickhunterr]

Are you forgetting that LW has a passive 30% buff to its shots, and ticks from lone wolf? Nothing says more room for error like a passive 30% damage buff. And that 30% is rolled up into your multistrike hits also.

[HappyLuckBox]

Are you forgetting that LW has a passive 30% buff to its shots, and ticks from lone wolf? Nothing says more room for error like a passive 30% damage buff. And that 30% is rolled up into your multistrike hits also.

actually it does nothing for your main source of damage, serpent sting

[zurm]

Let me repeat that... People are logging into a game to achieve a robotic number instead of the goal of finding a spec you like and having fun.

You base this statement over the assumption that to everyone the definition of fun in WoW is based on playstyle. To the contrary I know many people (at one point, myself included) where the epitome of fun in this game was progression and server firsts/guild rankings. They didn't even care what class/character they played to reach that (and if you look at world first guilds, many maintain multiple "alts" that can fill a "main" raid spot with virtually equal gear). Don't make assumptions based on your own experiences, because they often don't hold true for everyone.

[minigun]

You base this statement over the assumption that to everyone the definition of fun in WoW is based on playstyle. To the contrary I know many people (at one point, myself included) where the epitome of fun in this game was progression and server firsts/guild rankings. They didn't even care what class/character they played to reach that (and if you look at world first guilds, many maintain multiple "alts" that can fill a "main" raid spot with virtually equal gear). Don't make assumptions based on your own experiences, because they often don't hold true for everyone.

Don't forget just winning the dmg meter. You don't have to be in a top guild for dmg to be your motivation/fun factor.

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Good god people, it is not hard to understand.

- Sims show you what the spec is hardwired/coded in the software to do even though in game experiences will often not resemble it. This information is good for helping form some ideas about talent choices/rotations/stat weights.

- Logs show you what the spec is capable of doing under very extreme (exploit, guild help, tons of luck, etc) circumstances even though most player's in game experience will often not resemble it. Logs are good for helping form some ideas about what talent choices and rotations feel like in game and what, if any, difficulties they encounter with them.

Both sims and logs are flawed by nature.

The real truth lies somewhere in between and it is up to the players to chat in forums about their experiences and come together to offer up the best ideas/solutions.


NOT FUCKING ARGUE OVER STUPID SEMANTICS AND WHAT IS BETTER.

You don't just look at top parses though. Those are mostly just going to be outliers.

[Deleted]

I thought LW only buffed Auto Shots ??? Or is this just a tooltip error?

[Edorien]

Its like comparing weather to the weather forecast and saying "what the weather is is irrelevant the, forecast says...."

While I would tend to sit on your side regarding the need to look at real world data as opposed to simulated data, I think this analogy is wrong. The argument is rather "you can't disregard forecasting models by looking at a few days of weather where they were off". All Monte-Carlo sims come up with confidence intervals for their estimates, including forecast models, because rhe rwality comes with RNG that has to be taken into account.

But instead of simply disregarding the data as "anecdotic" as said multiple times, a good thing would be to show it is, i.e. are these data within the confidence interval indicated by the model ? If they are, we can't disregard the model as easily. If they're not, then one can safely discard them.

I personally don't have too much faith in sims. They're just a tool, that people tend to use in a very narrow way. But so far I'm yet to see evidence that they work, or evidence of the contrary.