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  1. #1141
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    LFR is not raiding it's basically a tourist mode.

  2. #1142
    Quote Originally Posted by tobberoth View Post
    No, the answer is "wait for the next patch" or "wait for the next expansion". The answer is not "add more bullshit because I can't be arsed to work with what you've already given me" ---

    Sorry, you missed what the game was designed around, if you think you're finished at this point, perhaps the game was not for you to begin with.
    Blizzard's definition of end game is always changing. If LFR is the intended end game for casuals (Weekly content) and as a result they have reduced the impact of Heroic Dungeons or other alternative content (Daily content), then that is a reduction of things to do overall. Personally, I would go do Normal and Heroic raids, using the built in group finder if I have to. But I can see how a casual could have run out of things to do because their end game content is now LFR. I used to be in that position before with my alts, and Heroic Dungeons as end-game content had more grind content because you earn tokens to get better gear. That system has been replaced with a once-a-week mode while trivializing heroic dungeon content completely.

    I won't say the previous system is a perfect answer for these people who feel they're done with the content, since a grind is never the answer; but there is definitely something lacking in the current system that emphasizes LFR too greatly as an end-game option for casuals. There really isn't much replay value to LFR, as many have said it's just tourist mode. There are few dailies, few dungeons, and Garrisons are practically the only other thing I see available.

  3. #1143
    In these conversations I feel there is a lot of hyperbole on both sides of the fence. People like to tout how difficult Mythic/Heroic is when really its not. I can't tell you how much anxiety I had when I first stepped into Heroics/ Mythic. I was expecting OMG this is waaaaaay harder this is gonna suck. But in reality its really not that much harder. there is maybe 1 or 2 new mechanics to look out for, there is a perceived difficulty jumped that is caused by the larger health pools and damage and when you initially start it hurts. But what people don't point out that after you get a boss or two down and you start distributing that loot it just gets easier and easier. It all flattens out and becomes retaliative. If your raid is all heroic geared then heroics are as easy as LFR. Just the same as if your entire LFR group was all kidded out in 640 purples.

    You could take all the mechanics of heroic and put them in LFR as long as you scaled the damage appropriately. The reason why people come down so hard on LFR is because the fights have to be changed because of communication gap. In a Mythic/Heroic you will always have some type of voice communication. Voice communication is so widespread that every single encounter is designed with it in mind. And that is where the big disconnect is. If all the encounters were designed so that they were intend to be done in a group setting with only the chat box then you might not need all these different difficulties.

    More to the point. This is why different difficulty levels are not content. And along those lines neither are achievements, pet battles, mount collecting, collecting all the treasures or any of the other things most people point out are. That stuff is all just busy work, its artificial, its perceived as content when really it is not. New content is something like a new dungeon, timeless isle, fire lands, stuff that progresses the story. This is not me saying this is not content relevant to me this is me saying this content is not even relevant to the game. Nobody ever said oh you didn't really beat FFX because you never got everyone's ultimate weapons, or you didn't become blitzball world champ, or you didn't fill out the entire sphere grid for all your characters.

    Nobody says those things because they are completely irrelevant to beating the game, seeing the story, and seeing the arch come to a close. This is why people are saying there is no content.

  4. #1144
    LFR is boring as hell in this expansion, so I get where he's coming from. Why should you be forced to do normal+ raiding in order to have remotely interesting content?

    SoO and MoP in general found a good balance of easy to play yet not insanely difficult. There are only a few exception in MoP to this rule, such as Durumu (spelling?). Likewise the gear had ridiculous colors but didn't look like absolute shit, and the set bonuses existed and the trinkets weren't utter trash.

  5. #1145
    LFR could be made harder, but then the rewards would have to go back to being useful again and 'real' raiders don't like that one bit because then they feel forced to do the content (a stupid as shit argument).

    I don't consider difficulty levels to be new content. All it is is the same content with different numbers and maybe a couple tiny additions. LFR was designed to get more people to use raid content, and is thus by its very fucking nature the same god damn content.

  6. #1146
    Stood in the Fire Gnomorepuns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armourboy View Post
    Just skimming through the thread ( because its long as heck now) I think there is a point that Blizzard is seriously missing ( and some players too). Not every single person in WoW considers raiding to be fun repeatable content.

    I know its hard to believe, but there was a time when this game had both enough raiding content and non-raiding content. You had reasons to do heroics even after you didn't need them, you had reasons to go do dailies, you had reasons to hunt down rares again, heck you even had a reason to go back and do raids you had already cleared a million times ( in the current expansion). That simply isn't the case with this expansion. That may change but currently isn't the case.

    The fact is for a significant portion of the MMO playing community out there, raiding does not and never has = MMO's. So pointing to that specific content and saying " do more of it " isn't a solution. Its actually you covering your eyes trying to ignore the problem.

    Players whether in WoW or another MMO, used to spend countless amounts of time on things like crafting, hunting for rares, exploring, and other various things thats existed. However slowly over the years they have made doing those things so simple and trivial that it either makes it content you burn through insanely fast, or not want to do it at all ( because there is no reason to do it).

    I always use it as an example, but that's mainly because its a good one. Take for instance the old Tier .5 quests in Vanilla. They were not super hard, but not super easy either. They chewed up lots of time and made use of older content that today would of run its course. You first needed the drops from the 5 mans, then you needed Rep and items from that Rep, then you needed a group to go in and complete that segment before moving on to the next. It all ended with a bunch of 5 man bosses that you didn't see if you did the normal run. I can't think how many hours I burnt on things like that ( and the mount quests too for another example), but they simply don't exist today.

    In their hurry to force everything into raiding ( because its easier and less time consuming to design), they dropped the ball on many of the things that made people enjoy this game without even stepping foot into a raid instance. Yes people wanted to see what was in those raid instances, I will not deny that, and yes a certain set will and have always wanted easy free loot, but I think its safe to say that most players just want something fun and engaging to do that gives them a meaningful reward. It doesn't need to be the best or on par with mythic level raiding, its just needs to be engaging and worth the effort you put into it.

    TLDR: Blizzard has missed the point, people are asking for fun and engaging content outside of raiding that provides them with some form of progression. It doesn't need to be on par with top level raid gear, but it needs to be worth investing your time into.
    Agreed. This is why if they were to mix a hybrid model of a BC/Vanilla esk model with cross server capabilities and maybe a mode that is flex with a spectator mode coming out at the end of the tier then this could work. As well as dungeon sets that are good quests that take up time and are not cakewalks, but require some effort to achieve.
    Very good post sir. You get it, and I thank you.

  7. #1147
    Quote Originally Posted by Moradim View Post
    going from heroic to mythic: that isn't new content, you're just seeing the same raid with a new mechanic or phase.
    Content also includes gameplay, not just new areas. Is it 100% new? No. Is it different? Definitely.

    And the question being discussed is not going from heroic to mythic. It's LFR = Normal/Heroic/Mythic.

    Which, while having the same bosses and zone, is the same to saying, as far as gameplay and experiences go, Dungeons = Raids.
    (And no I'm not saying LFR isn't technically raiding. I'm saying the experience it offers is far from what raiding should be. It's a loot piñata).

    I'm sorry but I can't wrap my head around this. If you only care about new visuals and not gameplay this is not the right media for you. Perhaps you should be spending your money on movies or series, maybe books? Or at least in more story-based campaign-ish games.

    If it really bothers you that much, speak with your wallet: Don't buy expansions on launch. Wait 1 year for the next winter-sale, save a bunch of months worth of subscription, buy the xpac for 50% off or more, and you'll end up with a huge ammount of "new" content as far as non-raiding goes, for a lot cheaper.

  8. #1148
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolvarg View Post
    Content also includes gameplay, not just new areas. Is it 100% new? No. Is it different? Definitely.

    And the question being discussed is not going from heroic to mythic. It's LFR = Normal/Heroic/Mythic.

    Which, while having the same bosses and zone, is the same to saying, as far as gameplay and experiences go, Dungeons = Raids.
    (And no I'm not saying LFR isn't technically raiding. I'm saying the experience it offers is far from what raiding should be. It's a loot piñata).

    I'm sorry but I can't wrap my head around this. If you only care about new visuals and not gameplay this is not the right media for you. Perhaps you should be spending your money on movies or series, maybe books? Or at least in more story-based campaign-ish games.

    If it really bothers you that much, speak with your wallet: Don't buy expansions on launch. Wait 1 year for the next winter-sale, save a bunch of months worth of subscription, buy the xpac for 50% off or more, and you'll end up with a huge ammount of "new" content as far as non-raiding goes, for a lot cheaper.
    But using that logic, planting a farm item in MoP that spawned more rodents would then be considered new content, and that really just misses the point.

    The goal should be make things that people enjoy doing. If you aren't enjoying raiding normal, you aren't going to get a kick out of it doing it on mythic.

    They could have made 3 or 4 more dungeons and left badge gear, and there would be people who only ran dungeons and bought their gear. That aids people who are later starters to the legendary item, as well it keeps people doing something that they are interested in doing.

    I do totally agree with your statement about vote with your wallet though. If people don't quit as a result of things they are unhappy with, Blizzard is rightfully justified as chalking it up to just noise.

  9. #1149
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    is it really? what overhead or wasted ressource is poored into mythic? The art, the creation of the encounter is mostly done, with the previous difficulty mode, thus adding a few mechanics and tweaking the number to make everything harder can be that a huge time/money investement.

    It probably much cheaper to offer the same content with higher difficulty than creating brand new content. Yes harder difficulty is mostly not new content, but it's an incentive for some player to play. not everyone is interested in higher difficulty, but some are.

    you argue mythic is a waste of ressource, i argue it's the best use of ressource to keep a content relevant longer, even if for a small category of players.
    Ah, you aren't aware that ALL of the other raid modes are an excuse to make mythic happen. Mythic isn't something tagged on at the end, mythic is the reason there is no other content left - in order to make raiding in general and mythic in particualr financially viable.

  10. #1150
    Quote Originally Posted by Sweetpeaz View Post
    If you aren't enjoying raiding normal, you aren't going to get a kick out of it doing it on mythic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolvarg View Post
    And the question being discussed is not going from heroic to mythic. It's LFR = Normal/Heroic/Mythic.

    Which, while having the same bosses and zone, is the same to saying, as far as gameplay and experiences go, Dungeons = Raids.
    (And no I'm not saying LFR isn't technically raiding. I'm saying the experience it offers is far from what raiding should be. It's a loot piñata).
    -----------
    Quote Originally Posted by Sweetpeaz View Post
    They could have made 3 or 4 more dungeons and left badge gear, and there would be people who only ran dungeons and bought their gear. That aids people who are later starters to the legendary item, as well it keeps people doing something that they are interested in doing.
    I don't defend there shouldn't be more non-raid content. I completly agree there should more variety of things to do, with more gameplay time, for people who don't enjoy raiding.

    All I'm saying is people should complain there's not enough non-raiding content, instead of complaining "there's no content because I already did LFR".
    Last edited by Kolvarg; 2015-01-28 at 06:32 PM.

  11. #1151
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Your logic is terribly flawed here.

    There are groups that can already faceroll normal kargath the same way LFR's version is by players in 640 gear. Is normal mode not raiding? Of course it is.

    LFR absolutely is raiding. Aside from outgoing damage, the fights are mechanically identical to normal and heroic versions in almost every single case.
    Really? Can you do the Butcher LFR and then do it on Heroic and tell me it's the same fight. Or Brackenspore. Or Tectus. Or Ko'ragh.

    I could continue on, but others have made my point for me.

  12. #1152
    Herald of the Titans Tech Priest Bojangles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboozles View Post
    Really? Can you do the Butcher LFR and then do it on Heroic and tell me it's the same fight. Or Brackenspore. Or Tectus. Or Ko'ragh.

    I could continue on, but others have made my point for me.
    They still have the same mechanics/abilities.
    People still die, just a lot less.

    Yep. Same.

  13. #1153
    The thought from people that LFR = Normal = Heroic in a content perspective is an argument to remove LFR.

    Suddenly you've increased the content. Normal content is by no means hard, but at least it'll take you 20 hours (spread over how ever many pug groups), before you completely finish the content, rather than less than 5.

    The biggest "problem" is that Blizzard has made everything accessible. Someone early in the thread posted that "Kara -> Gruul -> Mag -> SSC -> TK -> BT -> Sunwell" was content. For a lot of TBC players, "content" meant just Kara for the entire expansion. You always had something to work towards. You're trying to build a guild so that you can see more content. You're trying to do crazy convoluted quests to try and get that one piece of gear you need so that you can progress.

    Now, you open up whatever queue you want, and push a couple buttons. For some people this is how they game, and my thought is that you shouldn't cater to those people. It'd be like me opening up a game of league of legends, seeing the entire map, playing one champion and saying "Well, I've done everything that league of legends has to offer."

    It's asinine! Yet because Blizzard has fostered this culture of entitlement, threads and arguments like this get brought up. It's a buzzword for "I don't like X decision, because it affects the amount of content in the game." I really think the people that think there's no content left in the game should just un-sub, and find something better to do with their time.

  14. #1154
    Quote Originally Posted by Azlo View Post
    The thought from people that LFR = Normal = Heroic in a content perspective is an argument to remove LFR.

    Suddenly you've increased the content. Normal content is by no means hard, but at least it'll take you 20 hours (spread over how ever many pug groups), before you completely finish the content, rather than less than 5.

    The biggest "problem" is that Blizzard has made everything accessible. Someone early in the thread posted that "Kara -> Gruul -> Mag -> SSC -> TK -> BT -> Sunwell" was content. For a lot of TBC players, "content" meant just Kara for the entire expansion. You always had something to work towards.
    Depicting being stuck in Karazhan as a positive is ludicrous. That didn't work then, and it certainly wouldn't work now.

    The central value proposition of this game is making players feel good about themselves in a social context. If you are stuck in the starter raid, that doesn't happen. You feel like shit. Now, maybe you are saying these players don't deserve to feel good about themslves. Ok, but that's just another way of trying to wish them out of the game, and is not a business-viable answer.

    If anything, the rational business move is to eliminate the higher difficulty modes, since they spoil the illusion that clearing the lower modes is something to feel great about.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  15. #1155
    Deleted
    I am a little bit confused what kind of content people are wishing for. I played through the end stages of TBC, most of WOTLK and most of Cataclysm and besides pvp/raiding there hasn't been a lot of content in these expansions. You had some daily quests and the daily heroic 5-man to farm up justice to advance your character.
    I am not playing that much anymore and I have 2 max leveled characters and I do not feel the lack of content. Usually i log on for 30min to do the garrison related stuff and then have a few hours in the evening to do raids/pvp. For people not wanting to raid there are still daily quests, the apexis daily, which still makes you able to advance your character progression by buying high ilvl items off the apexis vendors. People are still able to craft gear, but it is more moderated by daily cds.
    I am genuinely confused why people were playing past expansions and thought they had more to offer than wod today. Apart from the really heavy profession farming everything which was available, ist still available in wod.
    Personally I found dailies and having to farm for specific stuff more of a chore than content and I am quite happy I do not need to do these things anymore. If people miss dailies that much, as far as I know there are still the garrison campaigns, apexis daily, extra objectives in the zones, which people can set their own pace at completing them and if they still have free time at their hands, exploring the world is still an option. I thought adding these treasures had the intention to encourage exploring.
    Additionly there are still pet battles which offer another big timesink for people.

    Are people not doing these kind of activities because it doesn't award some epixxxx? People claiming not having an interest in raiding shouldn't be that much focused on gearing their character to some high ilvl? Am I missing something? People want raid level epics without doing these raids? What are you guys doing with your attained gear? breeze through 5mans even easier?
    I am really curious why people focus so much on gearing their character with high ilvl items without ever needing it in game.

  16. #1156
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolvarg View Post
    -----------


    I don't defend there shouldn't be more non-raid content. I completly agree there should more variety of things to do, with more gameplay time, for people who don't enjoy raiding.

    All I'm saying is people should complain there's not enough non-raiding content, instead of complaining "there's no content because I already did LFR".
    Oh..yeah I agree with that too.

    I just want people to have fun. Too often people lash out at the nearest object as the issue, when it's really a lot more in depth than that (usually).

  17. #1157
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Depicting being stuck in Karazhan as a positive is ludicrous. That didn't work then, and it certainly wouldn't work now.

    The central value proposition of this game is making players feel good about themselves in a social context. If you are stuck in the starter raid, that doesn't happen. You feel like shit. Now, maybe you are saying these players don't deserve to feel good about themslves. Ok, but that's just another way of trying to wish them out of the game, and is not a business-viable answer.

    If anything, the rational business move is to eliminate the higher difficulty modes, since they spoil the illusion that clearing the lower modes is something to feel great about.
    I'm sorry if my facetious-ness didn't show through.

    I'm responding to the point that someone argued where TBC had so much content because of all the raid tiers, when in reality, most people raided Kara for the entire expansion. In effect, I'm trying to say that having multiple difficulties, including LFR, over multiple raid tiers, is an exponential increase in content over TBC.

    Eliminating the higher difficulty modes means that you lose any semblance of a "game", and move towards an interactive movie. That's fine too, and maybe people want it that way. Only blizzard really has the answer.

  18. #1158
    Brewmaster Deztru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Do you have a viewpoint better than "nuh uh"? Please share it.
    You go into LF"R", completely negate every possible mechanic just because you can, it won't hurt the teamwork because there is none to begin with right? Then you get some purples as a souvenir.

    It's so far away from raiding, organizing, discussing, planning and executing that it should be spelled backwards.
    Last edited by Deztru; 2015-01-28 at 09:31 PM.

  19. #1159
    Quote Originally Posted by Deztru View Post
    It's so far away from raiding, organizing, discussing, planning and executing that it should be spelled backwards.
    Hah

    But while LFR is not at heart "raiding," it is technically raiding.
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