Silver Proving Grounds too hard for some...

[Heladys]

Ok, I'm going to try and put a human face on this for some who are being a bit callous.

I expect it will go wrong, but I'll try anyway.

The silver pg filter, as it stands, seems to be a very failed experiment. It's too easy to actually filter most bad players, as it's extreme predictability means step by step, second by second, spec specific walkthroughs make it a joke for even the most idiotic players. But, it presents a real barrier, nearly impossible to overcome to some with a disability, or who for whatever reason it's essentially a physical impossibility.

If we were to actually impose a skill barrier, I'd like to see it actually require some skill. And maybe in the future, raid leaders will require a gold, or some amount of endless, but the thing is it still won't prove any ability to use rational thought, follow directions, or work as a team.

But, while it's not doing anything to stop complete fucktards, it IS stopping earnest people from just playing a game with their friends. We have people in my guild, and I'm sure there are others out there, for whom it's pretty much impossible to complete these. They contribute fine in raids, and dungeons. Mostly because they have friends there to help, assist macros to use, and markers to follow. We had a hunter who recently passed away who would top the meters in most raids, but would never have cleared silver. Simply because no one could zone in with him.

Now, I understand the counter argument to be made here. That "if they are that unable to function without a friend there to help, they shouldn't be queueing for randoms anyway". And I would for the most part agree. But they don't. They are aware of their limitations, and aren't interested in jumping into a group and being useless. What they want to do is run a dungeon with friends. Maybe 1 or 2 guildies, someone to help call targets, or even with a full group of 5. But at the moment, they can't. The only way to get them into a heroic is to actually run there and zone in manually.

Which yes, isn't such a hardship. I know. But they already feel excluded, and doubling the time required, and needing people to run there ahead of time to summon them just adds one more barrier. So they instead, just keep trying to clear the damn PG. I have a few guild mates who have spent weeks, dozens, maybe hundreds of attempts trying to clear it, and they only get more and more frustrated, and it seems a matter of time before they just stop showing up altogether.

I don't know what I'm saying exactly should be done. I can't point to a flaw in the system. I can only say that it's not stopping the people it should, and is stopping the people it shouldn't. Maybe some kind of carry system, if I queue with an endless 30, can I take someone without bronze in with me? Maybe a gear ilvl exemption. If they've reached 650 through other means, can they get in with only bronze? Some kind of workaround would be nice, for those for whom this speed bump is a massive mountain.

Oh hell no.

[Deleted]

A few people replied with something similar, some variant of disbelief. So I have to think there's a lack of breadth of experience happening here. Also, I wasn't saying they would be independent and perform a lot of complex tasks. I'm saying they did enough dps to pull their weight when others helped accommodate various issues, and making sure they were assigned tasks they could do.

There is a very large disabled population that plays wow. There are also a large amount of elderly folks playing. The guild member of whom I was speaking had one hand, and was severely arthritic. Another I've spent countless hours trying to get through silver is just simply very old, and simply can't seem to react quickly enough to interrupt a cast.

And again, these folks aren't looking to crash your pug. They just want to run a dungeon with their friends, hang out and talk, without feeling even more like outcasts. The system as is, completely blocks these folks, but let's through complete idiots who, even after watching and repeating the step by step walk through, learn nothing about their class. They don't understand why they are doing the steps they have seen, and so can't use any skills picked up this way later on. They simply repeat a series of button presses, check their box, and move on.

The proving grounds are just that. Proving grounds. Not a tutorial, or teaching grounds, or a learning experience. They are just proof that your hands work, which really isn't their intended purpose.

Like I said, I'm not sure what I'm saying should be done. Only that this isn't working very well. When I can finish silver dps as a tank with just one button, they aren't proving a damn thing about skill. It's mindless. Gold isn't much harder. It wasn't until I got into endless that I even had to think about optimizing my time.

In a perfect world, I'd love a gear exemption at high gear levels. Or a "carry a friend" exemption. Or, if I'm making wishes here, I'd love a version of the PG where multiple people could zone in, and trigger wave spawns on demand, so that we could actually use them to teach something.

We are talking about Silver PGs, not something that's difficult. you can literally spam AoE for all the waves, even single target ones. 1 key for most classes is all you need.

Also, my knee is screwed up so you don't see me playing soccer. Deal with it, I say. I don't want terrible players in my groups and pulling my experience down. I couldn't care less if they had a physical disability or a mental disability or if they just are stupid. If you can't do something as simple and easy as Silver PGs, you have no place in Heroic Dungeons.

[Deleted]

Indeed. Silver DPS for my Unholy DK was practically "go next to mobs and spam blood boil, then wait 45 seconds" nearly every wave. I honestly have no clue how anyone can have problems with it and how you would need help with it.

As far as I'm concerned, if you cannot do something as simple as that, you should just stay out of 5man content. It's not only about you, you are ruining 4 other players' experience.

I've wiped on silver when I was going to tank it. I tabbed out to check news and something caught my eye too long and when I tabbed in the healer was close to dead and I couldn't save the situation. That's about the only time I've had trouble up until endless waves, as any role I've played.

[ultramini]

A few people replied with something similar, some variant of disbelief. So I have to think there's a lack of breadth of experience happening here. Also, I wasn't saying they would be independent and perform a lot of complex tasks. I'm saying they did enough dps to pull their weight when others helped accommodate various issues, and making sure they were assigned tasks they could do.

There is a very large disabled population that plays wow. There are also a large amount of elderly folks playing. The guild member of whom I was speaking had one hand, and was severely arthritic. Another I've spent countless hours trying to get through silver is just simply very old, and simply can't seem to react quickly enough to interrupt a cast.

And again, these folks aren't looking to crash your pug. They just want to run a dungeon with their friends, hang out and talk, without feeling even more like outcasts. The system as is, completely blocks these folks, but let's through complete idiots who, even after watching and repeating the step by step walk through, learn nothing about their class. They don't understand why they are doing the steps they have seen, and so can't use any skills picked up this way later on. They simply repeat a series of button presses, check their box, and move on.

The proving grounds are just that. Proving grounds. Not a tutorial, or teaching grounds, or a learning experience. They are just proof that your hands work, which really isn't their intended purpose.

Like I said, I'm not sure what I'm saying should be done. Only that this isn't working very well. When I can finish silver dps as a tank with just one button, they aren't proving a damn thing about skill. It's mindless. Gold isn't much harder. It wasn't until I got into endless that I even had to think about optimizing my time.

In a perfect world, I'd love a gear exemption at high gear levels. Or a "carry a friend" exemption. Or, if I'm making wishes here, I'd love a version of the PG where multiple people could zone in, and trigger wave spawns on demand, so that we could actually use them to teach something.

And what task do you give to a DPS who isn't able to DPS ? What task do you give to a DPS who pull 1/10 of their class DPS on a target dummy ?

I am sorry but there is no way that someone who isn't able to complete silver PG can ''pull their weight'' in raid.There is absolutely no way ! This is fake or troll,this must be !

5K DPS on normal butcher isn't good dps.

[Lairiel]

Who said they couldn't do any dps on a dummy?

I'm talking about people who can pull 20k on butcher, but if you drop them in an uncontrolled pull, with snap decisions, target switching and interrupts, they can't react fast enough. For those people the proving grounds are nearly impossible.

You set up macros, you prepare. You designate someone for them to follow and an assist to get their proper target, you rehearse, you work at it. It's not ideal, it's not easy, but when your friends would like to still be able to enjoy their hobby and hang out with their friends of a decade, you make it work. I really don't understand what's difficult to get about this =/

Hell, there's even semi famous examples of it. This can't be news to you...

Here, I dug up an old article for you. This isn't exactly illustrative of who I'm talking about. But for every player like this guy, there are a hundred with good hearts but less skill. http://wow.joystiq.com/2009/10/27/15...gression-raid/

I'm not saying everyone needs to cater to their needs. I'm saying if they have friends who are willing to help them, it would be nice if there was a way to do so without forcing them into an awkward situation. And yes, we can all walk out to the instance and zone in, taking far longer to do it. It would be nice to avoid that for the same reason disabled people would rather avoid waiting hours for specially equipped transport. It separates. It pushes them to the margins and makes them feel like shit.

To those saying things like "I don't want terrible players in my groups and pulling my experience down. I couldn't care less if they had a physical disability or a mental disability or if they just are stupid."

I say one, you clearly didn't read what I said. I never suggested they'd group with you. And two... Well, remember you felt that way in forty years and you get shoved out of hobby after hobby, by kids with your attitude. I earnestly hope you never have to know what it feels like to be told you not only cannot contribute to the workplace, but that there is no place for you in recreation either.

[arcaneshot]

I say one, you clearly didn't read what I said. I never suggested they'd group with you. And two... Well, remember you felt that way in forty years and you get shoved out of hobby after hobby, by kids with your attitude. I earnestly hope you never have to know what it feels like to be told you not only cannot contribute to the workplace, but that there is no place for you in recreation either.

The difference is those people learned to overcome their difficulty in being in the acceptable place while you're still at the stage where you're blaming the fact that there's an "acceptable stage" to begin with. The reason kids on the playground didn't pick that one kid isn't because of him personally, it's because that kid is the one that is least likely to contribute to a winning team, and if you're that kid you either suck it up and accept it or you actively try to fix it (and therefore make someone else the kid that gets picked last).

[Deleted]

So judging by the comments of this thread, you should be able to carry your Raiders through a system that has no use after you have started raiding. What is the point of this ? Heroic dungeons are a place to gear for raids, not the opposite.

And to be totally honest, you are already carrying them in your raids if they cannot complete silver PG. Even with disability, for example having only one hand you can easily manage that and gold. Unwilling to do so for no obvious reason other than excuse of being disabled is a reason of it's own.

I honestly cannot imagine anyone not being able to complete silver PG with acceptable gear. You can fail on it if you have less than 600 ilvl and have just dinged but even with gear ilvl of that you can complete it if you are willing to learn it.

Maybe people with serious disability like who can only press forward button, can't speak or act on anything cannot complete it but then again, i doubt they can raid either.

[oraz4000]

I'm sure you've all dealt with what you'd consider a "bad" player. But did you know we're being protected from "bad bad" players? The silver proving grounds is what's keeping you from seeing these players. No Silver achievement means no heroics for these people, so they play normal mode all day.

You can see Preacher go into detail about this artificial barrier: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dqJv0xMrDU

I wonder if it's these people who are complaining about the game and saying that there's nothing to do. The game would be pretty limited if you couldn't gear up in heroics so of course they're upset. But the silver proving grounds tests your basic abilities to be a useful team member. Is it just that hard for some people? Do they just now know how to get into the proving grounds? Are they still clueless about their class after boosting it to 90?

Can the community do anything to save these people from giving up and leaving WoW? (in b4 good riddance)

Wow that video was a eye opener thats for sure, not sure on the solution as honestly silver proving grounds requires very minimal skill its nothing like a heroic or mythic raid.

[Deadite]

Never done a proving ground before but i found silver to be pretty easy. Not sure why they had to force people into terrible solo content to do group content however. I think at this point they should probably remove the requirement.

[Deleted]

There's really very little need to do Heroic Dungeons at this point apart from getting the 'cores' for legendary quest.
I don't think this is why people are complaining about lack of content.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

There's really very little need to do Heroic Dungeons at this point apart from getting the 'cores' for legendary quest.
I don't think this is why people are complaining about lack of content.

And you can do those four quests without using the LFG tool (and thus without the requirement of doing Proving Ground) by pre-forming a group and flying/running to the instance.

[Deja Thoris]

I say one, you clearly didn't read what I said. I never suggested they'd group with you. And two... Well, remember you felt that way in forty years and you get shoved out of hobby after hobby, by kids with your attitude. I earnestly hope you never have to know what it feels like to be told you not only cannot contribute to the workplace, but that there is no place for you in recreation either.

Get over yourself.

If people are that bad you are fooling yourself if you think they are contributing. Fill a raid with players like that and progress for them would be kargath trash. that's not the games fault.