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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    The 275 points from enchants will give most players a 60% boost to multistrike over the base value that includes whatever they get from gear.
    Those same 275 points from enchants will provide you with ~20% boost over base value in terms of versatility, as you'll have right around 10-12% versatility from gear alone...so even if you slice it that way, it's still 60% more MS vs 20% more versatility for the same price.

    I'm perfectly willing to give up an extra 2% guaranteed damage and 1% damage reduction in exchange for an additional 4% chance to deal 130% to 145% damage or healing.
    Where did you get those numbers? what makes you assume every character is going to get a 60% boost to multistrike with those enchants? What makes you assume the average character has 10-12% versatility from gear alone? Its no where near that much.

    Once again, thats fine that you are willing to give up 2% dmg/healing and 1% less dmg taken for a 4% chance to do 130%-145% extra damage or healing. However, based on the proc rate of multistrikes, compared to the straight damage of versatility, 9 times out of 10, versa will end up being better. There are those times when you get 3 or 4 multistrikes when you statistically shouldve only gotten 1. However, on average you will get 0, 1 , or 2.

    Assume you only have 2% versatility and 4% multistrike. You do 25 attacks for 1000 each.

    Looking at just the multistrike portion of it:
    Statistically you will do 24000 damage and 1 multistrike for 1300 damage giving you a total of 25300 damage.

    Looking at just the versatility portion of it:
    You will do 25500 damage from the attacks.

    Now yes you can get 2 multistrikes from those attacks and get lucky. but you can also get unlucky and do 0 multistrikes in those 25 attacks.

    Well obviously people have more gear and its a lot more random than that. so lets assume you have 10% multistrike, thats 660 rating.
    in those 25 attacks you would do 25750 damage. ~2.5 multistrikes would happen on average. could be 0, could be 1, could be 2, could be 3, could be 4,...

    Now with that 660 rating that you geared towards multistrikes, we could put that gear towards vers. Thats 660 / 130 = 5.08%
    So in those 25 attacks you would do 26450 damage. No RnG, it just happens.

    So you are hoping on average RnG to do 25750 damage if you spend those gear points on multistrike. If you went verse, youd do 26450 damage no matter what.

    Well what about crit!?!? lets assume you have 10% crit too.

    So with 10% crit, and 10% multistrike damage.
    you can expect 2.5 crits, and 2.5 multistrikes. Thats 3750 damage expected from crits, and 3250 damage expected from multistrikes. add that to the 20000 damage that happened without crits or multistrikes and you have 27000 damage.
    Well, here you say "what if those multistrikes crit. thats the benefit im talking about. The 145% damage multistrike ive been lusting over!"
    you have on average 2.5 multistrikes. at a 10% crit chance, .25 of those multistrikes are expected to crit. That means on average, you would need 10 multistrikes to get 1 of them to crit. Lets be generous and just say it happend. ill recalculate the damage portion expected from 1.5 normal multistrikes and assume one other one crit.
    thats 1300, 650, and 1450. that equals 3400 damage. Add that all together and you have 27150 damage expected from those 25 attacks

    Now lets do 5.08% vers damage with 10% crit chance over 25 attacks.
    Thats 22.5 normal attacks for ~1051 each. and 2.5 crit attacks for ~1576. So add that up and its 23647 + 3940 = 27587 damage expected. No RnG involved from multistrikes. Just basic crit RnG.

    So 10 times out of 10 the vers will do 27587 damage. If the multistrike geared person follows the expected amount of RnG then they will do 27150 damage. Now you are correct, you could get an extra multistrike. instead of 2.5 what if you got 3 or even 4? Well with 4 multistrikes where 1 crit(even though it statistically shouldnt) instead of 2.5 multistrikes where 1 crit, you would do 18500(non multistrikes, non crit) + 3900 (3 multistrikes), 1450(1 crit multistrike) , 3750(crit damage expected) = 27600 damage.

    So if you got 4 multistrikes instead of the expected 2.5 and 1 crit, instead of the expected 1 crit out of 10, you could do more damage than a straight vers build. 4/2.5 = 1.6. so you would need 60% more multistrike procs then expected to do the same amount of damage as a straight vers build. This sound great, but for every time this happens, you would also go through a period where you did 60% less procs than expected. 60% less procs is = to 1 multistrike. So for everytime you get 4 multistrikes out of 25 attacks with a 10% multistrike chance, you are just as likely as scoring 1 multistrike out of 25 attacks.


    Before you attack me for talking about .5 of a crit or of a multistrike, realize im doing average damage done. I could have expanded out to 50 or even 100 and those .5s would become 1 crit or 2 crit. Its all the same relative damage, im just focusing in on a smaller scale. Im aware you cant crit .5 times.
    Last edited by ellieg; 2015-04-01 at 02:32 AM.

  2. #42
    Deleted
    Ashran sucks regardless, that being said racials have become a huge problem. Someone said "it simply opens a bigger pool of players to play with", which happened because of racials to begin with. People change for better racials, forcijng others who play with them or want to stay competitive to change also, forcing even more players in search of people to play with to change.

    It's a downward spiral and it's still going on to the extent that large parts of the people I play with or used to play with have changed factions aswell. Hell we're only around 2k MMR RBG wise atm and we already have problems finding people or having lost people who changed so bad that some people actively advocate changing factions for the better racials and more players since so many already changed because of that.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Where did you get those numbers? what makes you assume every character is going to get a 60% boost to multistrike with those enchants? What makes you assume the average character has 10-12% versatility from gear alone? Its no where near that much.
    Didn't you know that they added off-pieces with versatility on it, that you can buy with conq? My bracers have versa on them, and I think there are boots with versa too which I'll be getting soon. Not sure about the belt... Anyway, my versatility straight from gear as it stands now is around 12% scaled to 690 ilevel, and it will be about the same for any class because the stat allocations are nearly identical on pvp gear. As for multistrike, on average you'll get at least 6-7% of it from gear just because it's there and that's what it is. I have around 14% versatility after enchanting for it.

    Once again, thats fine that you are willing to give up 2% dmg/healing and 1% less dmg taken for a 4% chance to do 130%-145% extra damage or healing. However, based on the proc rate of multistrikes, compared to the straight damage of versatility, 9 times out of 10, versa will end up being better. There are those times when you get 3 or 4 multistrikes when you statistically shouldve only gotten 1. However, on average you will get 0, 1 , or 2.
    WoW doesn't adhere to any statistical paradigm. I'd say that your tooltip values for crit and MS are more like "guidelines" rather than exact values. I do know that they added code to the game to prevent unlucky streaks with RPPM procs, and I'll guess that similar code has been in place for crits and now MS, which means that after a certain period of no crits or MS you are going to get a guaranteed crit or MS as the game tries to work them in line with your actual rating values. That's speculation, of course...but in-game experience seems to support this.

    I crit all over the place on my shaman and there's no shortage of MS even when I'm sitting around 7% MS chance.

    Assume you only have 2% versatility and 4% multistrike. You do 25 attacks for 1000 each.

    Looking at just the multistrike portion of it:
    Statistically you will do 24000 damage and 1 multistrike for 1300 damage giving you a total of 25300 damage.

    Looking at just the versatility portion of it:
    You will do 25500 damage from the attacks.

    Now yes you can get 2 multistrikes from those attacks and get lucky. but you can also get unlucky and do 0 multistrikes in those 25 attacks.
    Like I said in the other post, each attack is its own isolated "event" within the game, and so whether you hit once or 25 times, the chance to crit and to MS is based on your respective ratings. If you did 4% chance to MS and 25 attacks, then 25 * 4% gives you a theoretical 100% chance to get an MS, but in reality, it's not like that. You have 25 independent events that each have a 4% chance and have no bearing on each other, which means that every hit could be MS or you could just get none (although I think there is code to prevent that).

    You'd need just 2 multistrikes or one MS crit in your 25 hit session to do more damage than you would with versatility, not to mention that you're burst potential is enhanced as your instantaneous damage is potentially higher.

    Well obviously people have more gear and its a lot more random than that. so lets assume you have 10% multistrike, thats 660 rating.
    in those 25 attacks you would do 25750 damage. ~2.5 multistrikes would happen on average. could be 0, could be 1, could be 2, could be 3, could be 4,...

    Now with that 660 rating that you geared towards multistrikes, we could put that gear towards vers. Thats 660 / 130 = 5.08%
    So in those 25 attacks you would do 26450 damage. No RnG, it just happens.

    So you are hoping on average RnG to do 25750 damage if you spend those gear points on multistrike. If you went verse, youd do 26450 damage no matter what.

    Well what about crit!?!? lets assume you have 10% crit too.

    So with 10% crit, and 10% multistrike damage.
    you can expect 2.5 crits, and 2.5 multistrikes. Thats 3750 damage expected from crits, and 3250 damage expected from multistrikes. add that to the 20000 damage that happened without crits or multistrikes and you have 27000 damage.
    Well, here you say "what if those multistrikes crit. thats the benefit im talking about. The 145% damage multistrike ive been lusting over!"
    you have on average 2.5 multistrikes. at a 10% crit chance, .25 of those multistrikes are expected to crit. That means on average, you would need 10 multistrikes to get 1 of them to crit. Lets be generous and just say it happend. ill recalculate the damage portion expected from 1.5 normal multistrikes and assume one other one crit.
    thats 1300, 650, and 1450. that equals 3400 damage. Add that all together and you have 27150 damage expected from those 25 attacks

    Now lets do 5.08% vers damage with 10% crit chance over 25 attacks.
    Thats 22.5 normal attacks for ~1051 each. and 2.5 crit attacks for ~1576. So add that up and its 23647 + 3940 = 27587 damage expected. No RnG involved from multistrikes. Just basic crit RnG.

    So 10 times out of 10 the vers will do 27587 damage. If the multistrike geared person follows the expected amount of RnG then they will do 27150 damage. Now you are correct, you could get an extra multistrike. instead of 2.5 what if you got 3 or even 4? Well with 4 multistrikes where 1 crit(even though it statistically shouldnt) instead of 2.5 multistrikes where 1 crit, you would do 18500(non multistrikes, non crit) + 3900 (3 multistrikes), 1450(1 crit multistrike) , 3750(crit damage expected) = 27600 damage.

    So if you got 4 multistrikes instead of the expected 2.5 and 1 crit, instead of the expected 1 crit out of 10, you could do more damage than a straight vers build. 4/2.5 = 1.6. so you would need 60% more multistrike procs then expected to do the same amount of damage as a straight vers build. This sound great, but for every time this happens, you would also go through a period where you did 60% less procs than expected. 60% less procs is = to 1 multistrike. So for everytime you get 4 multistrikes out of 25 attacks with a 10% multistrike chance, you are just as likely as scoring 1 multistrike out of 25 attacks.

    Before you attack me for talking about .5 of a crit or of a multistrike, realize im doing average damage done. I could have expanded out to 50 or even 100 and those .5s would become 1 crit or 2 crit. Its all the same relative damage, im just focusing in on a smaller scale. Im aware you cant crit .5 times.
    The reality is that we really only have a budget of 275 points to play with for customization. They took out all the fun stuff like gems and reforging that allowed players to experiment with various combinations of stats.

    I think you're going to have to get comfortable with the fact that a lot of the damage you deal has a RNG component to it, and that the tradeoff between versatility and something like MS is that with MS you're gambling on favorable RNG, while versatility gives you slow-and-steady consistency.

    While the end results in damage may eventually come together, versatility does not improve burst nearly as much as crit or MS do point-for-point. Yes, you'll hit a little bit harder all the time with 2% more versatility, but those big crits and MS procs cannot happen...and it's those big numbers that really put pressure out in pvp. Steady, consistent damage is easy to deal with for a healer. Big spikes of damage in the form of crits and MS procs really force healers into a corner and put other DPS into defensive mode.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    Didn't you know that they added off-pieces with versatility on it, that you can buy with conq? My bracers have versa on them, and I think there are boots with versa too which I'll be getting soon. Not sure about the belt... Anyway, my versatility straight from gear as it stands now is around 12% scaled to 690 ilevel, and it will be about the same for any class because the stat allocations are nearly identical on pvp gear. As for multistrike, on average you'll get at least 6-7% of it from gear just because it's there and that's what it is. I have around 14% versatility after enchanting for it.



    WoW doesn't adhere to any statistical paradigm. I'd say that your tooltip values for crit and MS are more like "guidelines" rather than exact values. I do know that they added code to the game to prevent unlucky streaks with RPPM procs, and I'll guess that similar code has been in place for crits and now MS, which means that after a certain period of no crits or MS you are going to get a guaranteed crit or MS as the game tries to work them in line with your actual rating values. That's speculation, of course...but in-game experience seems to support this.

    I crit all over the place on my shaman and there's no shortage of MS even when I'm sitting around 7% MS chance.



    Like I said in the other post, each attack is its own isolated "event" within the game, and so whether you hit once or 25 times, the chance to crit and to MS is based on your respective ratings. If you did 4% chance to MS and 25 attacks, then 25 * 4% gives you a theoretical 100% chance to get an MS, but in reality, it's not like that. You have 25 independent events that each have a 4% chance and have no bearing on each other, which means that every hit could be MS or you could just get none (although I think there is code to prevent that).

    You'd need just 2 multistrikes or one MS crit in your 25 hit session to do more damage than you would with versatility, not to mention that you're burst potential is enhanced as your instantaneous damage is potentially higher.



    The reality is that we really only have a budget of 275 points to play with for customization. They took out all the fun stuff like gems and reforging that allowed players to experiment with various combinations of stats.

    I think you're going to have to get comfortable with the fact that a lot of the damage you deal has a RNG component to it, and that the tradeoff between versatility and something like MS is that with MS you're gambling on favorable RNG, while versatility gives you slow-and-steady consistency.

    While the end results in damage may eventually come together, versatility does not improve burst nearly as much as crit or MS do point-for-point. Yes, you'll hit a little bit harder all the time with 2% more versatility, but those big crits and MS procs cannot happen...and it's those big numbers that really put pressure out in pvp. Steady, consistent damage is easy to deal with for a healer. Big spikes of damage in the form of crits and MS procs really force healers into a corner and put other DPS into defensive mode.
    I dont think you understand how statitistics work. You should take a college course in it. Also, most classes will end up getting haste/mastery gear instead of the ashran vers gear. You have the option to gear how you want. Those are the gear points im talking about.

    So my plate bracers give me haste/mastery, or i could get vers ones for vers/crit. thats ~130 pts that could go towards either stat. Gems are gone but gearing customization is still there.

    Also there is no PPM for crits or multistrikes. Im aware that every single time you attack it rolls to see if it crits or multistrikes and it is independent of the last attack. You just seem to think that you are getting more crits/multistrikes than you really are.

    Im not going to spell it all out again because you didnt quite get it last time. But if you have 10% crit chance, and do infinite attacks, 1/10th of them will be crits. Yes, like i mentioned, there are times where you could get 5 crits in 10 attacks. You seem to think this happens a lot. I already mentioned that this is very rare. You should google bell curves. You are looking at the far right of the bell curve and trying to claim that as normal, while ignoring the rest of it.



    You see that part on the right on the x axis that says 2? You are only looking past that while ignoring everything else. The part that says 0, is the part that says with 10% crit chance, you will score 1 crit out of 10. Look how often that happens.

  5. #45
    The Lightbringer
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    Get a room you two.

  6. #46
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilan View Post
    Get a room you two.
    hahahahahhahahahaha made my day

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I dont think you understand how statitistics work. You should take a college course in it. Also, most classes will end up getting haste/mastery gear instead of the ashran vers gear. You have the option to gear how you want. Those are the gear points im talking about.
    Thanks for the life advice that I didn't ask for. I'm quite familiar with stats and standard deviation and such because my "day job" is maintaining a highly profitable algorithmic derivative trading system. I did not attend college because I opted to make money rather than saddle myself with $50k-$100K in non-dischargable debt. I'd highly recommend that you and most people do a simple "cost-benefit" analysis of college tuition vs the likelihood that you'll see a return on your 'investment' within a reasonable timeframe post graduation. The answer is more often than not, no...as in no ROI, meaning a net loss. So if you can get past the idea that you need to be spoon-fed information that is abundantly and freely available online and from experts in a given field, you'll realize that you're much better off taking control of your own life on your own terms.

    So there's my life advice that nobody asked for.

    Back to the topic...sometimes you'll have to choose gear with a stat you really don't want to get one you do. Several pieces of my gear already has multistrike on it, and so my gear-only rating was giving me 7.6%. It's going to be in that ballpark for most players.

    So my plate bracers give me haste/mastery, or i could get vers ones for vers/crit. thats ~130 pts that could go towards either stat. Gems are gone but gearing customization is still there.
    Like I said, it's a bundle deal with gear stats. You may want haste but to get it you'll have to take gear with crit or MS on it, even if you want neither of those stats. I looked at the versatility belt and boots, and I'd rather stick with the ones I have now.

    Gems, reforging and a variety of enchants were better even though they added "complexity". The only good change about the gear in WoD is that the primary stat changes based on your spec for most of the pieces.

    Also there is no PPM for crits or multistrikes. Im aware that every single time you attack it rolls to see if it crits or multistrikes and it is independent of the last attack. You just seem to think that you are getting more crits/multistrikes than you really are.
    No, I am not saying that. I am saying that as your "sample size" of total attacks increases the percentage of crits and MS procs will line up close to the percentages in your char sheet...but we're not just talking probability, because if you only manage to get say 3 attacks off before being rooted or knocked back, and 2 of those attacks crit and all 3 proc'd MS (which happens quite regularly for me), the "instantaneous" crit rate is 66% and MS rate is 100%.

    Now the 66% and 100% rates are "meaningless" because of the small sample size (attacks done), but because each attack is its own event and because PvP involves frequent windows of attack with varying sample sizes, your effective rates for each window can be substantially more than your char sheet rate.

    When you total up all attacks and average them out you'll see that yes, your AVERAGE proc rate for MS or crit rate is almost exactly what you see on the char sheet...but in line with the dynamics of the game, the fact that I can land 3 crits and 2 ms procs in a row on a hunter before he pops deterrence or disengage puts out substantially more pressure on him than if my hits were merely a flat 2% stronger and I did not get any crits or MS procs.

    Im not going to spell it all out again because you didnt quite get it last time. But if you have 10% crit chance, and do infinite attacks, 1/10th of them will be crits. Yes, like i mentioned, there are times where you could get 5 crits in 10 attacks. You seem to think this happens a lot. I already mentioned that this is very rare. You should google bell curves. You are looking at the far right of the bell curve and trying to claim that as normal, while ignoring the rest of it.
    You should google the effect of time frame and sample size on the accuracy of stats, and factor in real game play dynamics...because if you read what I said before, I already acknowledge that your AVERAGE damage over time will be more if you spend those 275 points on versatility, but it's not just the quantity of damage that matters...it's how the damage is delivered.

    Think about this in terms of electricity and power:

    12 volts @ 100 amps = 1,200 Watts
    1,200 volts @ 1 amp = 1,200 Watts

    In both cases, the power delivered is identical, but to carry 100 amps of electricity you will need a wire that is about 6mm in diameter while the same power at 1 amps can be transmitted over a wire that is a mere 0.40 mm in dia. That's a fairly big difference in delivery for IDENTICAL net results, and that's the difference between opting for MS and gaining bursty damage vs opting for versatility and gaining slow and steady damage. In PvP, bursty is preferable.

    You see that part on the right on the x axis that says 2? You are only looking past that while ignoring everything else. The part that says 0, is the part that says with 10% crit chance, you will score 1 crit out of 10. Look how often that happens.
    Charts aside, the actual percentages of attacks that crit or MS vary based on how often they are used. My base MS rating is 11.78%, and in recount, melee attacks have a proc rate of 14% for MS while stormstrike MH does 21% and lava lash is 20%. This is over a 3 minute session on the target dummy. If we go longer, you'll probably start to see the rates for SS and LL to come closer to 14% of the melee attacks...although in pvp that's pretty much irrelevant. Arena matches rarely last more than 3 mins and in that time you may have 20-30% actual uptime.
    Last edited by Professor Expert; 2015-04-02 at 06:10 PM. Reason: Numbers

  8. #48
    At no point during my time in Ashran did I ever even stop to think about racials.
    I hated Ashran because the zone felt like it was trying to pigeonhole me into doing uninteresting crap.
    Also, the zone itself feels very uninspired. Hell, every zone in this expansion, save for spires, feels uninspired.

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