Who would be interested in a larger investment into developing 5 man content?

[Shelly]

That's your opinion. I loathe just going from quest hub to quest hub collecting boar asses and picking flowers with the occasional kobold genocide here and there (oh, I take candle). I just leveled a character to 80 in GW2 the other day and it was a lot of fun, especially with the personal story quests. It was quite enjoyable.

It most certainly is, yeah personal story is great and all but that really wasn't enough to keep me engaged in GW2. There felt like zero character power-progression, the skills are just a CCG and that's not really how I like to play and the art while absolutely gorgeous wasn't appealing.

And I'll say their open world events are much better than RIFT's since they scale by the amount of players - and just as an FYI most of those open events are just collect boar asses on a timer.

If they introduce a free trial of the game I'd encourage anyone to give it a whirl, but I wish I hadn't dropped $60 on it.

[d0e1ow]

It most certainly is, yeah personal story is great and all but that really wasn't enough to keep me engaged in GW2. There felt like zero character power-progression, the skills are just a CCG and that's not really how I like to play and the art while absolutely gorgeous wasn't appealing.

And I'll say their open world events are much better than RIFT's since they scale by the amount of players - and just as an FYI most of those open events are just collect boar asses on a timer.

If they introduce a free trial of the game I'd encourage anyone to give it a whirl, but I wish I hadn't dropped $60 on it.

I've often wondered if WoW should adopt a more GW2 style approach, particularly to leveling. The thing is, every time I think I really like GW2's system, I go back and try it thinking "THIS IS IT! This is the time I'll get into the game!" I play it for a few days, get bored, and log out for another 5 months.

One thing that I think WoW does really well, or at least did in the past, is really keep you tapped into feeling like you made progress. I mean, yeah, leveling through Outlands is a boring slog to most people, but doesn't it feel good once it's over? Like... "Yeah! I did it! And my character learned some new spells, got some new gear, saw some new dungeons, and is 10 levels stronger! Yeah! I'm that much closer!"

GW2 feels like the reward cycle is broken or something. Like the positive feedback loop just isn't there. Level 2 might as well be level 80. That's exactly how they designed the game I guess, but I think it doesn't really work for me. I know what you mean about "zero power progression".

I've never minded their lack of end-game power creep. In fact, I think it's pretty cool, but the leveling feels hollow and "samey".

More to the point of this thread I think things like dungeons being relevant throughout the majority of an expansion was a great method for re-enforcing player progression and making people feel hooked to the game. The additions of the dungeon achievements and CM's only lends to that, particularly achievements, since imo those tend to be open to a wider audience. CM's seem like they attract a really, really specific type of person.

I couldn't ever drum up interest for them in my guild personally.

[Thage]

What I voted for:

>Mythic: I may not personally be interested in running it, but more love given to 5-mans and a better spread of challenge versus easiness would be a good thing, imo.

>More at launch and in patches: One of the biggest reasons I loved Wrath was because the 5-mans were tiered and let you gear up in an alternative progression path to raiding. While Normal ToC5 epics weren't going to outperform raid gear any time soon, it was a visible upgrade to the stuff you got from the launch Heroics; then you had upgrades from the heroic version. And after that, you got a mini-tier in the ICC 5-mans and their Heroic versions, complete with a lore-heavy questline, story relevance (disrupting the Lich King's operations to give the heroes taking the fight to the Frozen Throne a fighting chance), and a questline to get a powerful weapon with a unique model and more lore, mirroring the Shadowmourne questline tied to their sister raid.

>Longevity: It's no secret that the MoP 5-mans and especially the WoD 5-mans offer almost zero incentive to go back to them when you've geared up. I posted an idea in another thread to add some longevity in the revival of dungeon sets (acting as their own little semi-tier sets for 5-man players without making them more attractive than tier sets from the accompanying raids), and I also feel the return of endgame currencies and reputation gains from dungeons could help breathe life back into them after the first wave of players gearing up in them.

[Deleted]

Sooty if this has been covered, a lot of TLR, I can't see why they can't just do all dungeons in a lvl 100 mode a la current 'Heroic' followed by a heroic mode that is tough like BC heroics, then followed by pre-raid 5 mans at a tougher lvl 100 mode and Heroic mode ever raid patch, kinda like sun well, with relevant ilvl drops

[Selah]

It most certainly is, yeah personal story is great and all but that really wasn't enough to keep me engaged in GW2. There felt like zero character power-progression, the skills are just a CCG and that's not really how I like to play and the art while absolutely gorgeous wasn't appealing.

And I'll say their open world events are much better than RIFT's since they scale by the amount of players - and just as an FYI most of those open events are just collect boar asses on a timer.

If they introduce a free trial of the game I'd encourage anyone to give it a whirl, but I wish I hadn't dropped $60 on it.

Don't get me wrong, I have my problems with both games. I do not like having a limited ability bar, I cannot figure out why my character is so stupid they can't remember all their abilities. Though I'm sure it's to help with in game balancing. The warrior calling in Rift is still busted after 2 expansions which really gets under my skin because the souls (specs) they have for the warrior is downright amazing (at least the ideas behind them are).

I'm surprised you didn't feel like you didn't have character power progression. I know that players are auto-leveled with the zones they're in but if you got a good piece of gear you could feel it, creatures died faster and you took less damage.

Yeah, they're a few collect boar asses on a timer events. Not many, and when I'm walking around a zone and a random character runs up for me asking for help which leads me to a chain of events all tied together, it's pretty damn cool.

[Solarnova]

More five mans, in fact there should be 2-3 times more. Normal difficulty should be difficult, and Heroic should actually feel Heroic.

Rewards should be a lot of gold to make it worth the effort, and loot that is comparable to the endgame, but not AS good. I'm talking perhaps a 5-10 ilvl difference and that's it.

[Deleted]

I was thinking about this recently.

I think I might be done with 5 mans.

I was one of the big advocates of "6.1 does not have enough content".

But 4-5 weeks after 6.1 I am only just finishing up the 6.1 content.

A new 5 man I would be "done" with 30 mins after 6.1 opened.

I think I actually want fun "other" content.

The harrison jones quests are an example of the sort of thing I (personally) want more of

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More five mans, in fact there should be 2-3 times more. Normal difficulty should be difficult, and Heroic should actually feel Heroic.

Rewards should be a lot of gold to make it worth the effort, and loot that is comparable to the endgame, but not AS good. I'm talking perhaps a 5-10 ilvl difference and that's it.

Challenge mode gear is 10 ilvls different from Normal raiding and better than LFR.

Or are you saying you want gear 5 ilvls lower than mythic raiding?

[Mazaxist]

Mythic 5 man dungeons would be nice. NOT timed challenge modes. I hate timed runs, i mean timed bosses are OK i guess but entire runs timed - not ok.

I liked how in 5 mans in BC last bosses had a chance of dropping epic gear, so even if you didnt raid you could get some epics!

[Ballrug]

Mythic 5 man dungeons would be nice. NOT timed challenge modes. I hate timed runs, i mean timed bosses are OK i guess but entire runs timed - not ok.

I liked how in 5 mans in BC last bosses had a chance of dropping epic gear, so even if you didnt raid you could get some epics!

The emphasis on ZOOOOOOOOOOMMMING through 5-mans is one of the more horrible things that's happened to WoW in the past 5 years.

Once upon a time people were content to stroll through a dungeon. Now, in a random group, there's always someone who goes postal if the group isn't optimally fast, regardless of what the rest of the group wants.

[Stormspellz]

would love to see raid quality 5 man that aren't a speed trial garbage.

[Thage]

So make mythic 5-mans that can't be queued for? Make it akin to how the raids work. You have your cross-realm difficulties and then the mode that you need a static for. Do the same thing with five mans but make the gear on par with Heroic raids but max the amount of times you can loot each boss a week to say three total with each dropping one piece and maybe a chance at a second on the final boss of the instance.

My ideal would be three difficulties and a dungeon tier for each raid tier. Normal would be done like Wrath Heroics were: easy, relaxed bazookafests that reward blues (and maybe an epic off the final boss) for the first tier, and a little tougher for the second- and third-tier dungeons that offer low-quality epic gear for progression. Heroic works like the TBC/pre-nerf Cata Heroics: tougher than Normal, requiring coordination and CC, and has epics on more than just the last boss, remaining difficult through the expansion's life cycle by upgrading the rewards to stay competitive with the next tier's Heroic(s). Mythic would be like prenerf H Shattered Halls and Challenge Modes had an unholy lovechild: face-grindingly hard, offers raid-quality epic gear off the bosses, and if you reach and down the final boss in a certain time, you get an additional Warforged item drop. Heroic would require a Gold Proving Grounds achievement to queue in LFD, and Mythic would require a premade group, you can only use LFD to teleport to the dungeon.

If we really wanted to go nuts with dream setups, each dungeon tier would include a dungeon set (blues for Normal, epics for Heroic, and Warforged epics for Mythic, and the second and third tiers would have epic sets for all three difficulties differentiated by item level and cosmetic effects for Normal and Heroic) with generalized set bonuses geared towards a given role rather than specific classes, to keep from making them too attractive for raiders, and the last dungeon tier would include a Quel'Delar-style questline rewarding a strong epic weapon as a condensed version of the legendary weapon questlines of yore.

[Nayami]

I just miss having 5 man dungeons introduce us to the new raid tier. Example: The 3 ICC Dungeons (Halls of Reflection was hard as f**k and I'd like this difficulty in all dungeons as a minimum *dreams*) and the Cataclysm Time Dungeons or whatever they were called (I forget!) that were added with Dragon Soul.

I would like them to add 3 new dungeons to introduce us to the next raid tier in WoD. The dungeon will also award gear that will be sufficient to participate in the Normal difficulty of the new raid tier. Obviously not too good that it makes heroic and mythic gear from the previous tier useless. I also hope they will be hard and challenging, but I know that won't happen unless they add a 'Mythic' difficulty to dungeons, which I know sucks to have multiple difficulties but what can you do.

Also, what happened to that 6 man dungeon thing I remember? I forgot who.. (probably Celestalon) tweeted about lowering dungeon queues for DPS by adding a 6th member (4th DPS) to the group.

[melzas]

Increasing daily challenge mode reward to be equal to Flex(Normal) gear instead of LFR would be enough to get people to do 5mans. It's really silly that doing CM daily which requires you to understand mechanics and actually pull your weight (even to finish the dungeon without any medal) gives you LFR gear, which you can get by doing a dumbed down mode that literally requires you to do nothing for your gear (and on top of it gives you progress for legendary chain). Gear for daily CM was a good idea, but making loot LFR quality was beyond stupid...

[Gadzooks]

Providing it could be balanced to prevent conflicting too much with raid gear (this is a huge issue) would you guys actually enjoy 5 man content being:

Of a higher importance to the game

Having potentially additional levels of difficulty

Being further developed beyond the roster of 7-8 five man instances per xpac lately

I would like to see 5 man content be more meaningful than it is in it's present state, but I'd also like to not single out one aspect of what used to be a complex game, and see effort put into all areas of the game.

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The emphasis on ZOOOOOOOOOOMMMING through 5-mans is one of the more horrible things that's happened to WoW in the past 5 years.

Once upon a time people were content to stroll through a dungeon. Now, in a random group, there's always someone who goes postal if the group isn't optimally fast, regardless of what the rest of the group wants.

That's usually the raiders and wannabe PUG raiders, who are "forced" to run them, to get valor. The content is an irritation and inconvenience to them (LFR is too), so they want the most efficient use of time for their gain, with no regard for the others in the group. They treat the content with contempt, refuse to allow the content to be played appropriately by the people it's intended for, and make the experience miserable if you try to slow them down. That's why you get "GOGOGOGOGO" and "Watch Youtube, newb", and "If you can't keep up, gtfo", or "L2DungeonJournal". Attempt crowd control, and you get explosions of rage, abuse, and rage quitting with childish things like pulling mobs or bosses on the way out.

They have no respect for anything outside of a raid instance.

Then they come here, and piss on it more, and try to bully people for defending, liking, or discussing it.

[d0e1ow]

I would like to see 5 man content be more meaningful than it is in it's present state, but I'd also like to not single out one aspect of what used to be a complex game, and see effort put into all areas of the game.

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That's usually the raiders and wannabe PUG raiders, who are "forced" to run them, to get valor. The content is an irritation and inconvenience to them (LFR is too), so they want the most efficient use of time for their gain, with no regard for the others in the group. They treat the content with contempt, refuse to allow the content to be played appropriately by the people it's intended for, and make the experience miserable if you try to slow them down. That's why you get "GOGOGOGOGO" and "Watch Youtube, newb", and "If you can't keep up, gtfo", or "L2DungeonJournal". Attempt crowd control, and you get explosions of rage, abuse, and rage quitting with childish things like pulling mobs or bosses on the way out.

They have no respect for anything outside of a raid instance.

Then they come here, and piss on it more, and try to bully people for defending, liking, or discussing it.

I mean at what point do you just accept that that is the culture of the game? Even my 14 year old brother got the vibe that you're describing. 14 years old. New to the game. Realized immediately the kind of people he was dealing with in the dungeons and so he just quit.

Children are really fucking wise sometimes.