Fire, is it possible?

[Deleted]

5x as many kills by undergeared mages doesn't show true figures.
The top 200 parses will be by very well played, and very well geared mages for that particular fight regardless of spec. Arcane has a far better showing than Fire for every boss considered a ST fight.

And how many times have you "lined your shit up" for it to go tits up and you're sat with a crap ignite... To say it requires no luck is just a flat out lie.

No, arcane really doesn't. But it's ok if you want to read too much into those stats, it doesn't really matter.

If you line it up correctly you don't sit with a crap ignite... because if that happens you roll the combo again and combust on the next ignite.

How many times have you had a fucked up arcane rotation because of too many/too few missile procs? Arcane has RNG elements that can suck royally as well, it's not some godmode spec.

[Faildevil]

I have a question regarding fire:
My item level is only 685, with 4 T17.
I have about 38% crit raidbuffed. I have the sandman's pouch as a trinket, but not the Oregorger one.
If I understand the playsytle of fire correct:

- I cast FB till I have a heating up proc and a pyro proc
- I summon the crystal and cast another FB into the crystal
- I immedeately slam every instant pyro I have into the crystal
- I double cast IB into the crystal
- I switch back to the boss and use comb

Here comes the problem: I rarely get more then two instant pyros at the cyrstal, many times only one. What do I do if that happens? My comb seems to be realy bad :-(

[Zelendria]

No, arcane really doesn't. But it's ok if you want to read too much into those stats, it doesn't really matter.

So of the 200 parses
Gruul: 16% are fire 84% are arcane
Ore : 17%
Kromog: 4.5%
BH: 14.5%

Silly me I thought the higher the number the better, but it seems I was wrong. Moar fail me.
PS. I'm reading the same stats you wanted to use with fire at #1....

I have a question regarding fire:
My item level is only 685, with 4 T17.
I have about 38% crit raidbuffed. I have the sandman's pouch as a trinket, but not the Oregorger one.
If I understand the playsytle of fire correct:

- I cast FB till I have a heating up proc and a pyro proc
- I summon the crystal and cast another FB into the crystal
- I immedeately slam every instant pyro I have into the crystal
- I double cast IB into the crystal
- I switch back to the boss and use comb

Here comes the problem: I rarely get more then two instant pyros at the cyrstal, many times only one. What do I do if that happens? My comb seems to be realy bad :-(

Yes that's the rotation you put in the crystal, and yes that's RNG for fire typically when you need it specifically in that 10 second window.

[Faildevil]

ok, thank you. How big would be the gap if I play with kindling? I find this conzept of extrem compressed rng very disappointing most of the times.

[Deleted]

So of the 200 parses
Gruul: 16% are fire 84% are arcane
Ore : 17%
Kromog: 4.5%
BH: 14.5%

Silly me I thought the higher the number the better, but it seems I was wrong. Moar fail me.
PS. I'm reading the same stats you wanted to use with fire at #1....

Maybe I wasn't clear. I take issue with your subset of data. I could just as easily say that 2 of the top 5 overall rankings for Gruul are fire yet only 1 is Arcane (last two being BM hunters). This clearly proves that arcane is worse than fire singletarget.

[Zelendria]

Of course you take issue with the data I've used it proves you're wrong. Why would I expect any less. Not sure why telling me about BM Hunters as if it's relevant. Lets just pop our mages in BM mode then yea... :S
Take any parse range you so desire TBH. The 2pc IB trick has been known since Jan 26 on Altered Time which actually pre dates the release of BRF so it being a new tactic isn't an excuse either.

[Deleted]

Of course you take issue with the data I've used it proves you're wrong. Why would I expect any less. Not sure why telling me about BM Hunters as if it's relevant. Lets just pop our mages in BM mode then yea... :S
Take any parse range you so desire TBH. The 2pc IB trick has been known since Jan 26 on Altered Time which actually pre dates the release of BRF so it being a new tactic isn't an excuse either.

Are you this daft for real?

Let's make it mage only then. 2 out of the top 3 parses for mages on Gruul are Fire. Same for Oregorger. This clearly proves that fire is twice as good as Arcane for single target. No? Why not?

The reason arcane can appear better even though it realistically isn't (by much past 585 anyway, worse the higher you get) is that there's a fuckton more mages playing it because it's beleived to be better when that isn't necessarily true.

Just to make it abundantly clear. If there's 5x as many arcane mages as fire mages and fire is equally good then you'd expect 5x as many arcane mages in the top 200. On Gruul for example, there's 1300 firemage and 8000 arcane mage parses. That puts us at 6.15 arcane mages per fire mage. So if they were equal then there should be 86% arcane and 14% firemages. So even though I don't like the subset you use it actually shows fire doing better than would be expected if they were equal, not worse.

[Deleted]

Exactly, and don't forget that ST fire is a newer build than arcane, so there are some old but exceptionally high dps arcane kills, with dates ranging from 2015.04.01-10.

[Invrlose]

You do realize that the #1 firemage had significantly WORSE rng than the #1 arcane mage, right? The #1 arcane parse has 14 procs of darmac's in 5min leading to a 50% uptime, he's got a 45% uptime on the weapon proc as well while the #1 fire parse has same uptime as arcane on GSR, lower bleeding hollow uptime, MUCH lower molten slag vs instability uptime etc. The fire parse had good RNG but nowhere near the level that the arcane parse had. So tell me again how fire only wins on good rng?






Because that's the role you might be filling in your raid? If you want to max pillar damage you can bring 14 feral druids that pop all their cds on pillars and pillars will melt but boss won't die. Roles are complementary.

Trinket RNG is irrelevant as fuck. Fire is a complete RNG based spec when it comes to how high your DPS can get. The spread ranges from VERY low to VERY high and it averages out lower than arcane.

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Are you this daft for real?

Let's make it mage only then. 2 out of the top 3 parses for mages on Gruul are Fire. Same for Oregorger. This clearly proves that fire is twice as good as Arcane for single target. No? Why not?

The reason arcane can appear better even though it realistically isn't (by much past 585 anyway, worse the higher you get) is that there's a fuckton more mages playing it because it's beleived to be better when that isn't necessarily true.

Just to make it abundantly clear. If there's 5x as many arcane mages as fire mages and fire is equally good then you'd expect 5x as many arcane mages in the top 200. On Gruul for example, there's 1300 firemage and 8000 arcane mage parses. That puts us at 6.15 arcane mages per fire mage. So if they were equal then there should be 86% arcane and 14% firemages. So even though I don't like the subset you use it actually shows fire doing better than would be expected if they were equal, not worse.

You fail to account for spread. If there's 1000 fire mages and 10,000 arcane mages but arcane's max DPS with good RNG is 45k and fire's max DPS with good RNG is 55k then fire is going to be in the top 100 a lot more than arcane.

[Deleted]

Trinket RNG is irrelevant as fuck. Fire is a complete RNG based spec when it comes to how high your DPS can get. The spread ranges from VERY low to VERY high and it averages out lower than arcane.

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You fail to account for spread. If there's 1000 fire mages and 10,000 arcane mages but arcane's max DPS with good RNG is 45k and fire's max DPS with good RNG is 55k then fire is going to be in the top 100 a lot more than arcane.

"Trinket RNG is irrelevant" ok buddy, whatever floats your goat. Afaik with the 2 piece bonus fire averages out higher than arcane at high gear levels. You seem to greatly overestimate the variance as well.

[Deleted]

"Trinket RNG is irrelevant" ok buddy, whatever floats your goat. Afaik with the 2 piece bonus fire averages out higher than arcane at high gear levels. You seem to greatly overestimate the variance as well.

Trinket rng isnt as big as it was with snapshotting tho,gotta agree here,ive got 60k+ gruul with only 14%~ just cause i had really good crit percentages on pyro+fireball and insane opener rng(120k ticks),theres just too many random things with multristikes,crit percentage,opener,4set,trinket uptimes etc etc

[Dizzeeyooo]

are we really having a two page argument about which does slightly higher dps on single target fights, fire or arcane?

like, do we not have more interesting things to discuss

they are both in the top 3-4 specs for single target dps, you can play either of them on any of the "single target" fights in BRF and be a credit to your raid (Kromog progression aside)

arcane does very consistent single target dps, fire will burst harder in the opener and then is 100% rng dependant on trinket procs / 4 set procs building up to your second or third combustion. nothing procs and nothing crits? good luck outdpsing arcane. everything procs / everything crits? good luck arcane catching up to fire. enough people do enough pulls as fire on every boss? fire starts ranking higher then arcane, which is completely a statistical effect and has no bearing on how individual fire mages are doing on each boss each week

by the looks of it in HFC fire single target will be as dead as it was in Highmaul, so can we not just enjoy having two super viable single target specs while we do, instead of bitching at each other about which one is able to slightly top the other one on meters, when meters are practically irrelevant at this stage of the tier anyway

[pkm]

are we really having a two page argument about which does slightly higher dps on single target fights, fire or arcane?

like, do we not have more interesting things to discuss

they are both in the top 3-4 specs for single target dps, you can play either of them on any of the "single target" fights in BRF and be a credit to your raid (Kromog progression aside)

arcane does very consistent single target dps, fire will burst harder in the opener and then is 100% rng dependant on trinket procs / 4 set procs building up to your second or third combustion. nothing procs and nothing crits? good luck outdpsing arcane. everything procs / everything crits? good luck arcane catching up to fire. enough people do enough pulls as fire on every boss? fire starts ranking higher then arcane, which is completely a statistical effect and has no bearing on how individual fire mages are doing on each boss each week

by the looks of it in HFC fire single target will be as dead as it was in Highmaul, so can we not just enjoy having two super viable single target specs while we do, instead of bitching at each other about which one is able to slightly top the other one on meters, when meters are practically irrelevant at this stage of the tier anyway

YouMustBeNewHere.jpg

[Komman]

Afaik with the 2 piece bonus fire averages out higher than arcane at high gear levels.

Maybe you would like to share where you know this from?