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  1. #341
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    I've provided the information several times only for you to come back and request it. I see little reason to continue providing it if you aren't going to read it.
    No. What you're saying is no different than saying 'go to the library and search through the hundreds of books to find the source of my quote' or saying 'my quote comes from a book written by an European author.' That is not how it works. Those examples are useless as probationary value. To show a source, you need to say where exactly you found it. Give us the name of the novel, the WoWPedia webpage link, or in-game quest or item text link from WoWHead or other trusted database site.

    As it is...I'll use your figures of 1500. That isn't 'practically extinct' as you would say.
    I, as you put it, "wouldn't say it". It's what's written in the WoWPedia webpage. Going to dispute it? Show the evidence that disputes it.

    The page also refers to the HElf race as a very small group of individuals with no common goals.
    Does that description fit the Silver Covenant?
    Do the Silver Covenant's goals fit the goals of the Elves from Allerian Stronghold? Do they fit the goals of the elves from Quel'Danil lodge? No, they don't. So, yes, the description does fit the Silver Covenant.

    **I** don't have to. All I need to do is show that the option is open for Blizzard to take.
    And you haven't. You've used of headcanon and even gone against canon information to try to make your cases. All canon information about the subject point against your theories, but you just keep hand-waving it away without showing any shred of evidence.

    Regardless....your opnion is not Blizzards. Hawkspear could be helped. Alleria could once again decide her family more important than her nation. Vereesa might not be as brash ad you suppose or might be considered the type of leader the Alliance needs.
    Vereesa has not shown any real leadership skills so far, and as for Alleria and 'family', isn't Sylvannas also her family?

    Which is just a little different from the point you were making. The HElf racial leader would speak for player HElfs and not necessarily all HElfs...same as the other leaders. Other races don't need a universal leader to be playable....neither do the HElfs.
    Except when all the high elves' group's numbers are added together, they still number lower than the Gnomeregan Exiles before they mounted the Gnomeregan rescue, and were considered 'too few' to be considered playable, why do you think a single one of those High elf groups would be considered playable?

    No...it can't.
    Yes, it can. Deathwing proved so.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
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  2. #342
    I am Murloc! Viradiance's Avatar
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    I do want High Elves... But I want them to be Wretched high elves.
    Steve Irwin died the same way he lived. With animals in his heart.

  3. #343
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridiancity View Post
    I do want High Elves... But I want them to be Wretched high elves.
    Your sig stings me.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  4. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    A humanoid species beneath 4.000 individuals is pretty much doomed to extinction, if we use common biology. Even if they become playable they have no future.

    And current studies suggest even 80 might be enough. Further, a race does not need to be 'viable' long term to be playable now. The 4000 MVP figure accounts for issues such as disease and would be mitigated by factors such as geographic spread. There are enough named HElfs alone for genetic variation, they are grouped into several population centres, and have access to magic and various defences and allies. More is always better but the 4000 figure is for sub-optimal conditions.


    The 1500 minimum value must also be placed in context....KT brought thousands to assault the Kirin'Var. Given his many other obligations...is it likely he brought his entire army?


    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    You have shown your own opinion, not blizzards. Dont pretend to speak at all for them. Just because you dont understand the lore doesn't mean it wouldn't be a retcon.

    A retcon is where some piece of existing lore is changed. There is no lore, for example, stating Dalarans High Elf population. Therefore, if Blizzard were to specify it as 25 or 2500 or 25000....it would not be a retcon.
    Basic logic eludes you. If someone will kill your race off if you don't get help, you are on the brink of extinction.

    You`re on the brink if he succeeds to the point your numbers are low.


    And that will make High elves playable? You are reaching hard.

    No...I'm pointing out possible leaders in relation to a different point.


    Or she would defend her nation

    Maybe she would. I'm simply pointing out Alleria is a High Elf who has already abandoned her nation and disobeyed her king to go fight Orcs. And, since then, the BElfs have exiled her sister and the HElfs, transitioned into a police state and embraced many practices associated with the Legion. Nation might be a priority for Alleria...but family and vengeance came first. And QT is no longer the same QT she left, nor the people there the same.


    As the Encyclopaedia states...Blood elves no longer truly consider themselves high elves, and they tend to have different priorities and behaviors than their high elf kindred. There's a different identity there, and one that continues today in places such a the UVG which state that HElfs view the BElfs with disgust at what they have done an become.




    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    That is not how it works.

    As I said, I have no desire to reprint the quotes only to have you yet again ignore them and then ask for them. If you want them, go read the posts where I provided them. As YOUR figures are good enough, I'm going to use them


    You can argue with yourself about their veracity and if you want the sources, you'll have to provide them.


    It's what's written in the WoWPedia webpage. Going to dispute it? Show the evidence that disputes it.

    The fact that YOUR own figures gives a population of at least 1500 and very likely more proves it. And that is not counting all those HElfs who weren't in QT and were not part of the survivors who were exiled.


    Do the Silver Covenant's goals fit the goals of the Elves from Allerian Stronghold? Do they fit the goals of the elves from Quel'Danil lodge? No, they don't. So, yes, the description does fit the Silver Covenant.

    Does the goals of Stormwind fit the goals of Alterac or Kul Tiras? Do the goals of Ironforge agree with those of Thor Modan? Does Thrall speak for the Iron Horde? By your argument, these races should not be playable because their rulership is divided, because they do not have common goals or opinions.


    As it is....you need to read that passage again.


    They are a very small group of individuals scattered all over the world. As such, they do not have common opinions or goals.


    Is the entire High Elf race composed of a very small group of individiuals? No...it isn't. And because the first part is not true, the next sentence is also not true. That entities have no common goals or opinions because they exist as individuals becomes false if the surmise that they are individuals is wrong. The encyclopedia states that they have no common goals or opinions BECAUSE they are individuals. If the gameworld shows that they do gather, that they do work together, then not only is the description of them as individuals retconned, but anything that follows as a result of that individual status.


    The HElfs have no universal leader who speaks for all. That does not make a passage which describes them as individuals correct.


    And you haven't.

    To show you how silly this is..I'll ask you a question.


    If Blizzard decided to add High Elfs and as a result decided to set the Dalaran population at 25,000 and the Lodge populations at 50,000 and say there were 30,000 refugees and the HElf navy at Kul Tiras and 70,000 in Stormwind and another 15,000 in Outland and so on.....


    do they have the ability to do so without a retcon of the lore as it stands now?


    Let me guess.....you are now going to point to a webpage that refers to the entire High Elf race as a very small group of individuals, that was written while Vanilla was current, takes no account of the changes since then. Changes which show the HElfs working as groups...not individuals. Showing that they have common goals and opinions and can and do form communities. Changes which show that the HElfs cannot be considered all but extinct because they are able to gather in numbers...numbers strong enough to hold off their BElf kin. Look at how large and powerful the Sunfury were...and then realise the HElfs who survived QT are almost as many.


    Your entire argument, in short, is that because Blizzard once described the HElfs as 'a very small group of individuals' who don`t gather, don't work together, don't have common ideas or opinions (but only because they are individuals) and are 'all but extinct'....and the hope that Blizzard will decide that the SC and other groups we see which contradict these statements aren't valid enough and that it won't - just to be different - decide that what it wrote is important than what it shows.


    Vereesa has not shown any real leadership skills so far, and as for Alleria and 'family', isn't Sylvannas also her family?

    Sylvanas is dead and fighting for the Horde, allied with Orcs and Trolls.
    Allerias son, husband, sister and nephews are all Alliance.


    Except when all the high elves' group's numbers are added together, they still number lower than the Gnomeregan Exiles before they mounted the Gnomeregan rescue, and were considered 'too few' to be considered playable, why do you think a single one of those High elf groups would be considered playable?

    Because I don't rely on non canon info the way you just did.


    EJL

  5. #345
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Because I don't rely on non canon info the way you just did.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    In short, High Elves are not playable because there are very few true "High Elves" left -- far less so than Gnomes. (Source)

  6. #346
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    et me guess.....you are now going to point to a webpage that refers to the entire High Elf race as a very small group of individuals, that was written while Vanilla was current, takes no account of the changes since then
    The high elves of today are 1% of the original high elf population, with the blood elves comprising 9% of it.[3][2] Since Kael'thas took 15% of the blood elves to Outland[19] (i.e. 1.35% of the original high elf population), and since Kael'thas' army numbered at least 2,000 according to the Excerpts from the Journal of Archmage Vargoth, it follows that the total high elf population is currently at least 1,500 (and at least 150,000 prior to the Third War).

    In relation to the playable races, Blizzard has stated that the high elves have a considerably smaller population than even the Gnomeregan Exiles.[20] High elves are a rare sight even in Alliance lands,[21] and are considered a fallen, all but extinct race.[22]

    With the destruction of both Theramore and Quel'Lithien (along with the de-canonization of the RPG sourcebooks), the bulk of what remains of the high elf population appears to be bound to the Kirin Tor's Silver Covenant, Outland's Allerian Stronghold, and Hinterlands' Quel'Danil Lodge.

    http://wow.gamepedia.com/High_elf

    So now that we know you dont even read the pages can we just ignore you and your head canon? Thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  7. #347
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Let me guess.....you are now going to point to a webpage that refers to the entire High Elf race as a very small group of individuals, that was written while Vanilla was current, takes no account of the changes since then. Changes which show the HElfs working as groups...not individuals. Showing that they have common goals and opinions and can and do form communities. Changes which show that the HElfs cannot be considered all but extinct because they are able to gather in numbers...numbers strong enough to hold off their BElf kin. Look at how large and powerful the Sunfury were...and then realise the HElfs who survived QT are almost as many.
    It was written in preparation for TBC, when Quel'Danil was already in existence and Allerian Stronghold was in TBC beta.

  8. #348
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    It was written in preparation for TBC, when Quel'Danil was already in existence and Allerian Stronghold was in TBC beta.
    But.. bu... but my headcanon!
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  9. #349
    I do have to agree with Talen so far.
    The WCE entry seems outdated once you re-read the quests from TBC and look at just how many B/HElfs you have to deal with since then, even rep factions in WotLK.
    Blizzard only needs to update new numbers and where they live and can give us players HElfs instantly.

    The better question IMO opinion is: Should they give us HElfs?
    IMO no, since they should do more with the already existing but underutilized races, or come up with new and more meaningful ones.
    If Blizzard wants to continue to be as lazy as they have been in WoD ... then HElfs could show up very quickly since do not need that much work after the BElf rework.

  10. #350
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    The WCE entry seems outdated once you re-read the quests from TBC and look at just how many B/HElfs you have to deal with since then, even rep factions in WotLK.
    Blizzard only needs to update new numbers and where they live and can give us players HElfs instantly.
    When the Lore that is kept updated still says they are near extinction chances are blizzard doesnt have plans to change that. I doubt Blizzard is going to take a fraction of a fraction of elves and make them playable just so Alliance players can get their elf boner any bigger.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    **I** don't have to. All I need to do is show that the option is open for Blizzard to take.
    EJL
    By your flawed logic, we're gonna have Murlocs as the next playable race because the option is open for Blizzard to take.

    Possibility does not create precedent. It's not going to happen simply because it's possible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    "Real" Demon Hunters don't work as a class in modern WoW
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Please point out to me the player Demon Hunter who has Meta.

  12. #352
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    A retcon is where some piece of existing lore is changed. There is no lore, for example, stating Dalarans High Elf population. Therefore, if Blizzard were to specify it as 25 or 2500 or 25000....it would not be a retcon.
    Except, from the figures you posted, if it is 2500 or higher, then there would be a retcon. The retcon of the information that the High Elf population is numbered in around 1500, and that they're not centralized or under a single banner.

    You`re on the brink if he succeeds to the point your numbers are low.
    No. Population numbers don't really matter. A population number on millions can be 'on the brink of extinction' if they are faced with an imminent disastrous event that can wipe out their entire population. For example: Deathwing's world breaking. Another such event: Ulduar and Algalon.

    As I said, I have no desire to reprint the quotes only to have you yet again ignore them and then ask for them. If you want them, go read the posts where I provided them. As YOUR figures are good enough, I'm going to use them
    What do you mean, 'reprint'? You haven't given a single quote to back up your claims. None. Not just me, but other people in this thread have asked you for your sources, for your evidence, and you've shown nothing. You can't claim I'm 'ignoring' your quotes when you're not giving any.

    You can argue with yourself about their veracity and if you want the sources, you'll have to provide them.
    Really? You really think that *I* have to find quotes to back up your claims? That's stupid. That's not my job. You provide the quotes, and others examine them.

    The fact that YOUR own figures
    They're not my figures.

    The fact that YOUR own figures gives a population of at least 1500 and very likely more proves it.
    What.

    And that is not counting all those HElfs who weren't in QT and were not part of the survivors who were exiled.
    And you're assuming not a single High Elf returned to Quel'Thalas when the Scourge attacked to help defend it, and after Arthas left, to help the survivors? You're also forgetting that, when Arthas attacked Quel'Thalas, the vast majority of the High Elven population was in Quel'Thalas, because, you know, the Elves became isolationists after the Second War and Anasterian pulled almost all the elves from outside their borders, with only few remaining.

    Does the goals of Stormwind fit the goals of Alterac or Kul Tiras? Do the goals of Ironforge agree with those of Thor Modan? Does Thrall speak for the Iron Horde? By your argument, these races should not be playable because their rulership is divided, because they do not have common goals or opinions.
    Except if you round up all the remaining High Elves and count their heads... you'll probably have not even 10% of the head count Alterac had. Or Kul Tiras. Or Stormwind.

    They are a very small group of individuals scattered all over the world. As such, they do not have common opinions or goals.

    Is the entire High Elf race composed of a very small group of individiuals? No...it isn't.
    Um. Yes. Yes, it is. It's exactly what that line means. Their only 'common opinion' is the anger they feel toward the ones that banished them from their homes. Even as part of the Silver Covenant they don't have any real 'common goal'.

    To show you how silly this is..I'll ask you a question. If Blizzard decided to add High Elfs and as a result decided to set the Dalaran population at 25,000 and the Lodge populations at 50,000 and say there were 30,000 refugees and the HElf navy at Kul Tiras and 70,000 in Stormwind and another 15,000 in Outland and so on.....

    do they have the ability to do so without a retcon of the lore as it stands now?
    Nope. Because, in the order of what you wrote above: Considering that High Elves, prior to the decimation, were a proud and arrogant race, who extracted themselves from their alliance with the Human kingdom, and became basically isolationists, their numbers in human settlements were very low, next to nothing, save for Dalaran. Ok, so, to say 'Dalaran would have 25000 High Elves' would be the first retcon, of their information that their numbers are way too low to even be considered a proper 'race'.

    Then you mention the 'Lodge'. Which Lodge? And how the hell would a lodge have twice as many High Elves than Dalaran especially when you compare the size of Dalaran to the size of any elven Lodge? Not a retcon, but a huge logic failure.

    Now we move to Kul Tiras: first, I never even knew High Elves had a navy. Do you have any proof they had a navy other than transport ships? And again: Kul Tiras is gone into the sea. Second retcon.

    And 70000 in Stormwind? Again, almost all High Elves removed themselves from the Alliance at the command of their king Anasterian. Plus I don't think there's a single High Elf NPC in Stormwind, and you want to claim they had 70000 hiding somewhere? The dungeons, maybe? Third retcon.

    As for Outland... 15000? Are you saying those are the ones are the survivors of the initial number who moved there with Alleria through the Dark Portal? If so... 15000. Fifteen-hundred soldiers. Why the hell would they even need the Alliance help in BC in the first place? Not a retcon, but a massive story-telling failure.

    And let's add up the numbers you have: 25000 elves for Dalaran, plus 50000 elves for the Lodge (which one, again?) plus 30000 elves in Kul Tiras plus 70000 elves in Stormwind and plus 15000 elves in Outland... equals 190000 elves. A hundred, ninety thousand High Elves living outside the kingdom of Quel'Thalas. And considering that number-crunching using in-game numbers estimate the original High Elf population being around 150000, or one-hundred, fifty thousand High Elves since the total High Elf population today is just 1% of its original number... How can an 'isolationist kingdom' have the overwhelming majority of its population and army residing outside their Kingdom? And how many lived in Quel'Thalas, then? A hundred or so elves, then? Another big retcon.

    So... three retcons, and two massive logic and storytelling failures. Is that enough?

    Let me guess.....you are now going to point to a webpage that refers to the entire High Elf race as a very small group of individuals, that was written while Vanilla was current, takes no account of the changes since then.
    A webpage, written during WoW Vanilla, who holds information that to this day is still considered 'up-to-date', and the only meaningful changes that happened to the Elves were big hits to its population as they lost more and more as the years gone by.

    Your entire argument, in short, is that because Blizzard once described the HElfs as 'a very small group of individuals' who don`t gather, don't work together, don't have common ideas or opinions (but only because they are individuals) and are 'all but extinct'....and the hope that Blizzard will decide that the SC and other groups we see which contradict these statements aren't valid enough and that it won't - just to be different - decide that what it wrote is important than what it shows.
    The Silver Covenant is only a 'group of like-minded people' when the idea is to kill the Horde. Because that's really it about them. The only reason for their existence is because Blood Elves were accepted into the Kirin Tor and Vereesa wanted to oppose them. That's basically it. They don't have any real common goals other than 'we hate Blood Elves'.

    Because I don't rely on non canon info the way you just did.
    Non canon information? Since when information taken from canon novels and in-game text excerpts is considered 'non-canon'? Can you explain that one for me... or will you do as you always do? Make a claim, then refuse to show any evidence or explanation for it?
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2015-07-09 at 07:29 PM.
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  13. #353
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    I think we an disregard Talen if he cant prove any claims of lore he has. Its just a waste of time for people who actually research what they are talking about.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  14. #354
    Herald of the Titans Northem's Avatar
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    Is curious how someone new to the forums can provide a conclusion to the thread so right:

    Quote Originally Posted by segara82 View Post
    I do have to agree with Talen so far.
    The WCE entry seems outdated once you re-read the quests from TBC and look at just how many B/HElfs you have to deal with since then, even rep factions in WotLK.
    Blizzard only needs to update new numbers and where they live and can give us players HElfs instantly.

    The better question IMO opinion is: Should they give us HElfs?

    P.S. I'll add this thread to my favorites because on it has been well demonstrated and reasoned how is perfectly possible to add to the High Elves as a playable and decisive race in the Alliance even tomorrow at the morning. The question is, will Blizzard do it? When? Until then, we will continue waiting and reminding Blizzard our claims ...

  15. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    In short, High Elves are not playable because there are very few true "High Elves" left -- far less so than Gnomes. (Source)

    As I said...Caydiem was never a Dev. Caydiem was never in charge of lore. And random posts and tweets are not lore simply because they were posted by a Blue. Nor are they lore simply because WoWpedia labels them Blizzard lore posts. You would do well next time you copy such information to read the disclaimer at the top, which state their canonicity is questionable at best.


    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    So now that we know you dont even read the pages can we just ignore you and your head canon? Thanks.

    Wowpedia and its ilk are non-canon. And for all that they say they quote "Blizzard".... what they are doing is quoting the same CM Aquamonkey did earlier.


    Caydiem never ever defined lore. She was never in a position to say what was lore and what was not. Most ***Devs*** don't have that power let alone a CM. Further....that some NPCs consider therm an all but extinct or fallen race does not necessarily make such statements correct.


    So...once you get rid of the non-canon speculation....you are left with " The High Elfs of today are".....and then you realise that even that 1% figure is no longer accurate.....because Blizzards current lore is that 1% of those who were in QT remained HElfs. Not 1% of the entire race.


    The lore you are trying to quote here....where it is lore...has already "changed".


    And all of this is ignoring the reality of the situation....Blizzards ability and willingness to adapt the lore to the end it wants. You are trying to argue that Blizzard is willing to retcon lore for every situation in the game except when High Elf's are concerned. Look at the level of retconning that happens with that ludicrous one Legion story.


    So...the reality is that Blizzard is willing and able to change lore to meet its end goals. The reality is that it has always done so when adding a new race. The question over whether it would be willing and able to do so should it decide to add HElfs shouldn't even have arisen.....because the answer is yes. It will change and adapt the lore to add HElfs should it ever be in a position that it needs to.


    And because it has that history of change, it cannot be seriously argued that Blizzard will dismiss playable HElfs simply because it is too lazy to change a few words.


    And it doesn't need to even do that. The Tushui and Houjin are not nations. Or even a city state. They are a Monkish order. An organisation. Even if you make the case HElfs are too few to form a nation....it would still be very easy for them to be added as another organisation, akin to the Pandaren.


    Blizzard doesn't need to change any existing lore to make HElfs playable. It is only you and a few others trying to canonise the statement of a forum moderator whose job was to police the forums....not define lore. And the truth is....if you really want to show that Blizzard cannot or will not add HElfs, then you need a better case than "They're too lazy to pick up a pen to clarify/amend/add a few lines of lore"..... especially since they have already done so, such acts are their normal MO when adding a race and don't need to.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    It was written in preparation for TBC, when Quel'Danil was already in existence and Allerian Stronghold was in TBC beta.

    And from an Azeroth/Vanilla centred point of view. The assumption that it incorporates information from TBC is just that....an assumption, and one easily ignored because it isn't canonical and hence something Blizzard doesn't have to agree with. To "retcon" this, they simply need to say "You are wrong". The page would have us believe that the entire HElf race was composed of a very small numbers of individuals who didn't gather together, and that because they were individuals who didn't band together they had no common goals or opinions. The existence of the Lodges in Vanilla showed this assertion was arguably untrue....the information provided by TBC and LK shattered it. LK provided an Azerothian based HElf grouping of a significant size and influence, that came together and worked towards common goals.


    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    When the Lore that is kept updated still says they are near extinction chances are blizzard doesnt have plans to change that.

    The lore that is kept updated says nothing of the sort.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    By your flawed logic, we're gonna have Murlocs as the next playable race because the option is open for Blizzard to take.


    Possibility does not create precedent. It's not going to happen simply because it's possible.

    A strawman argument.


    I'm arguing that Blizzard COULD add HElfs if it so chose. More to the point, I'm pointing out that the many impediments you and others think would stop them doing so don't exist and are a result of wishful thinking.


    Blizzards MO when adding a new race, for example, has seen it change and add lore. The idea that HElf lore is sacrosanct to the degree that this process would not happen is fanciful. Caydiem statement that HElfs are too few to be playable is of some interest....but one has to wonder how much influence a **CM** has on development of the game years after she left the company.


    There is no technical issue that prevents them being added. There is no lore issue Blizzard cannot work around...no lore issue that it even needs to.


    It comes down...on your part....to the description (by an NPC) of the HElfs as a fallen and all but extinct race, a web page entry that tells us 1% of those in QT remained alive and HElfs and a comment by a CM...not a Dev, but a CM...that there are too few HElfs to be playable.


    The first is an NPC. He's Krasus....but if Blizzard said he was wrong or using different critetia?
    The second....Blizzard just has to state there were enough HElfs outside QT. Or add HElfs as an organisation, not a nation.
    The third...Caydiem was a CM. Her comments define lore just as much as yours or mine do. Blizzards Devs are certainly under no obligation to abide by them.


    All this shows is that Blizzard COULD easily add HElfs as there various issues you and others point out don't exist.


    The issues that do....are faction identity and visual diversity. The latter of these is the problem. But even it can, at best, delay the addition of HElfs. Not prevent it. Their addition is unlikely....but only in the short term.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Except, from the figures you posted, if it is 2500 or higher, then there would be a retcon. The retcon of the information that the High Elf population is numbered in around 1500, and that they're not he or under a single banner.

    Posting false information doesn't make it real. YOUR figures provided the minimum of 1500. To these, we can add the HElfs who weren't in QT when Arthas visited. That might number a few....it might number thousands. This is not a retcon because the info hasn't been published to be retconned.


    Blizzard can easily assert there were 10000 HElfs outside QT when Arthas attacked.


    You can't claim I'm 'ignoring' your quotes when you're not giving any.

    As I said....I'm not going to drag them out again since it appears you couldn't be bothered to read them the first times. Your figure of 1500 is good enough so I'll use that.


    Really? You really think that *I* have to find quotes to back up your claims? That's stupid. That's not my job. You provide the quotes, and others examine them.

    No....I'm saying that if you have any issues with the 1500 figure that you provided, you can check with yourself....or who ever provided them...for proof.


    And you're assuming not a single High Elf returned to Quel'Thalas

    All **I** have to do is show that the option is there. Of all the HElfs in QT when Arthas attacked, approx 1% remained HElfs. There is no info about how many were elsewhere, nor any info about how many....if any...returned. Which means, Blizzard can set those figures at anything it wanted and do so without a retcon.


    If you want to show otherwise....do so. Prove there were only a handful outside and/or most returned. But you can't...because such lore does NOT exist. Therefore if literally cannot be retconned.


    You want to show HElfs can't be added without a retcon? You need lore that needs to be retconned. Not your interpretation of it. Not your supposition about how you think things SHOULD be. Not even NPC belief. But actual hard lore.


    There are 10 HElfs left.....is lore.
    The race is 'all but extinct'....in NPC opinion.


    Blizzard stating Krasus was wrong would not be a retcon. Blizzard stating there are thousands....1500...left HElfs left when it previously said '10' would be a retcon. Blizzard stating Caydiems post was a non-binding opinion posted by a CM and not a Dev would not be a retcon either. Blizzard taking the most liberal view of founding errors and approximations would also not be a retcon. 10% of 10% could easily become 15% of 15% if we incorporate rounding.


    , the vast majority of the High Elven population was in Quel'Thalas, because, you know, the Elves became isolationists after the Second War and Anasterian pulled almost all the elves from outside their borders, with only few remaining.

    Not forgetting that assumption at all. I'm just treating it as what it is.....pure assumption.


    In short....if it isn't written down, then it can't be retconned. We don't know how many HElfs lived outside QT. It might be tens....it might be tens of thousands.


    You want to show that HElfs are impossible...then you need to learn and accept what being in full control of the lore allows. You want to show HElfs are 'impossible' to add? Then YOU need to close off possibilities and accept that should Blizzard want to add HElfs, it will be taking the widest possible view of lore should it feel the 'retcon' issue is of want importance.


    In this case....if it can interpret the lore to suggest there are tens of thousands of HElfs living outside QT, then it will. You want to prove a retcon? Then you need hard fact to close this off. Otherwise, the lore will be what Blizzard says it is and you can't cry retcon based on your interpretation.


    Um. Yes. Yes, it is. It's exactly what that line means. Their only 'common opinion' is the anger they feel toward the ones that banished them from their homes. Even as part of the Silver Covenant they don't have any real 'common goal'.

    You are now trying to argue that HElfs in the same organisation do not share the same goals, opinions, beliefs. What the SC is not, in fact, an organisation at all.


    You are also trying to argue that a very small number of individuals without a common opinion actual do have one.....in essence, contradicting your own source.


    Nope. Because...

    ....the assumptions you are making don't agree with what Blizzard might do.


    You claim they are isolationists. That's true...but any HElfs outside QT would not be isolationist. In fact, any HElf who preferred to live outside QT would have a very different set of values. He might look down on his insular overly conservative kin as cowards hiding behind their walls and shields, largely content to let others suffer and die for their freedom. Some might even claim Stormwind or Kul Tiras or Dalaran or where as their home state.


    You claim that the vast majority lived in QT and the numbers elsewhere very low. And yet....this is assumption.


    You are trying to argue Blizzard cannot add High Elf's because the way you view the world, the way you think Azeroth is, the assumptions you make.....aren't compatible with that result.


    Sorry to tell you....Blizzard isn't going to listen. Whatever assumptions you have are yours....not Blizzards. That you can make assumptions such as this in no way obligates Blizzard to uphold them.


    Then you mention the 'Lodge'. Which Lodge? And how the hell would a lodge have twice as many High Elves than Dalaran especially when you compare the size of Dalaran to the size of any elven Lodge? Not a retcon, but a huge logic failure.

    In the same way that Fort Lauderdale isn't a true fort. How easy would it be for Blizzard to state that a HElf town or refugee camp or whatever has grown up around the various lodges since they were built? I suspect it would be very easy for Blizzard to type this.


    This isn't a 'logic' failure so much as your failure to realise just what Blizzard can do with the lore without retconning it. Will this work against the assumptions you are making? Probably. But your assumptions here won't be Blizzards concern.


    Now we move to Kul Tiras: first, I never even knew High Elves had a navy. Do you have any proof they had a navy other than transport ships? And again: Kul Tiras is gone into the sea. Second retcon.

    Kul Tiras got "shifted"..... not sunk. And seriously? Questioning the HElf navy? Who do you think built all those HElf destroyers?


    And 70000 in Stormwind?

    The figures were plucked out of thin air to illustrate the point....if Blizzard were to provide those figures (or indeed, any figure at all), what lore would be retconned. None. Your assumptions, your interpretations....those aren't lore.


    Again, almost all High Elves removed themselves from the Alliance at the command of their king Anasterian.

    Maybe....but unless you can prove they all left, your assumption that Stormwind had no HElfs is your own personal belief. It doesn't matter how many HElfs you think lived there. It doesn't matter whether Anasterian called them all back or not, it doesn't matter whether or not you think they all obeyed.


    What matters as far as retconning is concerned is what is written down. If it isn't written down, it can't be retconned. Is it likely Stormwind has a HElf population of 7000? Probably not. That isn't the point. If you want to argue such a figure would be a retcon, then you need to show some evidence that Stormwinds HElf population isn't 7000 in lore.


    Otherwise Blizzard is free to state what it is without retconning anything. Simply stating your personal opinion on what the lore should be or telling us the various assumptions under which you are pushing your case is meaningless.


    Blizzard is free to set the HElf population outside QT because such information has never been provided. A figure of 50 is just as valid as as figure as 50,000 and would require the exact same level of retcon of the current lore.....none.




    And considering that number-crunching using in-game numbers estimate the original High Elf population being around 150000

    The number crunching you mention is highly speculative and filled with numerous assumptions. I could just as easily state that KT attacked the Kirin Var with 19k troops and had another 50k scattered at other sites. You also make the assumption that the 1% figure isn't rounded and ignores the current lore that tells us that it refers only to those in QT and not the entire HElf race. You further maske assumptions as to the proportion of HElfs who were in QT as opposed to elsewhere.....and so on.


    Your number crunching gives us an absolute minimum figure for those who were in QT...but it doesn't give us ANY basis from which we can extrapolate any further information.


    So... three retcons, and two massive logic and storytelling failures. Is that enough?

    Not when such retcons/failures are based on your vision rather than canon lore. You still don't seem to realise that you can't call anything Blizzard does a retcon unless it actually contradicts established lore....not your interpretation of it.


    A webpage, written during WoW Vanilla, who holds information that to this day is still considered 'up-to-date', and the only meaningful changes that happened to the Elves were big hits to its population as they lost more and more as the years gone by.

    A web page that was inaccurate and didn't truly depict the HElf reality when it was written, and whose information has since been rendered void and obsolet by subsequent in game information.


    They don't have any real common goals other than 'we hate Blood Elves'.

    Even were that true, ONE common goal is not the same as NO common goals.


    The issue here is that you are trying to build a case for why Blizzard cannot add High Elf's. And you can't. Should Blizzard decide to do so, there's nothing stopping them.


    So the new goal is to show that they will choose not to add HElfs. That while Blizzard could add High Elf's, there are just so much of an issue with them that Blizzard won't.


    You can't argue popularity....players have been arguing for HElfs since Vanilla.
    You can't argue the same race....we've gotten Pandaren and the issue is identity, not race.


    You are trying to argue lore...but the problem here is trying to show that a: there is lore that would require a retcon and b: that Blizzard actually cares enough about such lore that it won't perform a retcon.


    Again.....point 'a' doesn't exist. Let's assume you are correct..the HElfs are all but extinct. Is there anything that would stop Blizzard creating a story where you are one of the last few HElfs left? No....Blizzard could easily craft a story where there are only a few HElfs left....and you are one of them, and fighting for the Alliance. Blizzard doesn't need numbers to create playable HElfs...and Caydiems assertion is meaningless as she was not and never was involved with development.


    The lore that would stop Blizzard adding HElfs and which cannot be expanded, or clarified to allow their addition doesn't exist.


    Andcas for point 'b'....I defy you to show Blizzard cares enough about High Elf lore and would never change it if they needed to......especially since they already have.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. There is no technical, gameplay or lore reason not to add HElfs to the Alliance. There is only the judgement as to whether or not it is the best race to be added. So far, the answer has been no. But if you want tyo demonstrate that the answer will always be no, then you need a reason Blizzard can't sidestep by saying "You're wrong"....and that's all they'd really need to do because what you object to is not what is in the lore....but your interpretation of it.


    EJL

  16. #356
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    As I said...Caydiem was never a Dev. Caydiem was never in charge of lore. And random posts and tweets are not lore simply because they were posted by a Blue. Nor are they lore simply because WoWpedia labels them Blizzard lore posts. You would do well next time you copy such information to read the disclaimer at the top, which state their canonicity is questionable at best.
    "I don't agree with something a Blizzard employee said, therefore it's not canon."

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Wowpedia and its ilk are non-canon. And for all that they say they quote "Blizzard".... what they are doing is quoting the same CM Aquamonkey did earlier.

    Caydiem never ever defined lore. She was never in a position to say what was lore and what was not. Most ***Devs*** don't have that power let alone a CM.
    Not being able to define lore doesn't mean they can't relay lore. Are you going to dismiss the AskCDev answers you don't like because they were posted by a CM?

    Caydiem didn't post with "IMO" or "I think/believe".

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Further....that some NPCs consider therm an all but extinct or fallen race does not necessarily make such statements correct.
    Except it's backed up by the WC Encyclopedia.


    You're trying to argue from a lore standpoint. The HElves are very few in number, not even counting as a race, and this is noted to be why they aren't playable. You admit this as the state of lore by defaulting to "Blizzard can just change it". Obviously, Blizzard can change it or just make stuff up, but those would be retcons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    And from an Azeroth/Vanilla centred point of view. The assumption that it incorporates information from TBC is just that....an assumption, and one easily ignored because it isn't canonical and hence something Blizzard doesn't have to agree with. To "retcon" this, they simply need to say "You are wrong". The page would have us believe that the entire HElf race was composed of a very small numbers of individuals who didn't gather together, and that because they were individuals who didn't band together they had no common goals or opinions. The existence of the Lodges in Vanilla showed this assertion was arguably untrue....the information provided by TBC and LK shattered it. LK provided an Azerothian based HElf grouping of a significant size and influence, that came together and worked towards common goals.
    It does incorporate TBC stuff.... the WC Encyclopedia includes info about Rommath returning to Azeroth, teaching the BElves to siphon magic, and rebuilding Silvermoon. It also notes that they will join the Horde.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2015-07-18 at 08:38 PM.

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