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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Generally, this has always been the case; The ultimate dps/HPS requirements are lower on a per-player basis in smaller raid sizes.
    It is, as said, entirely true that encounter mechanics will then (usually) favor bigger raid sizes - EG, having 3x people out of 10x need to run and break shackles will cost more overall damage/healing than 3x players out of 30, which balances it all up nicely in the end. Blizzard are not stupid - they tune low-size raids with the assumption that they'll do less damage/healing due to more players dealing with mechanics.
    It is, however, just plain out FALSE that there is a lower dps requirement for bigger raid sizes than smaller raid sizes. It is the exact opposite; The ultimate DPS requirement is higher in bigger raid sizes.


    Don't spread lies or information you have not researched, please.
    Flat out wrong. You are taking the boss HP and dividing it by total raid size and not just the number of "dps" Requirements per "damage dealer" are lower in larger raid sizes. Even more so when you consider the impact of losing 3 people in 12 man over losing 3 people in 30 man.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Einsz View Post
    There is no mechanic on archimonde heroic that makes you lose dps if you "handle" it. You are just looking for excuses to get away with your crap damage. Your problem seems to be that you raid with really bad players not the group size.
    I wonder which class that you play then. Hunter perhaps? For casters this can be a very movement intense fight and many specs have little to cast on the move or if they do it's no where near the level of their normal rotation. No clue how it is for melee though as I never play them.

  3. #23
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Real homie View Post
    Wrong, he actually was nerfed for smaller raid sizes. There was a nerf that mainly effected 10 player mode and the nerf was progressively less effective as the raid size went up and 30m roughly had no changes.
    That was not a Blackhand only Nerf, yeah it was a overall nerf for small raids to bring them in line. But Archimonde could use some bigger nerfs for small raids. There is a reason why there are so low kill numbers on heroic with 12 people or less.

  4. #24
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by ArcadeBit View Post
    That was not a Blackhand only Nerf,.
    um.. what ? it was a blackhand nerf that specifically targeted small groups..... which goes directly against your comment that he was never nerfed for smaller groups. What are you even trying to argue here?


  5. #25
    To the people saying I'm dividing it by raid size instead of DPS players;
    Of course I fucking am. You're complaining about the raid sizes. You can drop healers and add healers in either difficulty to skew the results of what needs more output. People are correct that tanks make up a bigger part of your raid in a 10 man, however, that also means that you have a much smaller needs for healers in 10 man if you run any of the self-sustaining tanks; Instead of just 6% of your raid being virtually immortal and not needing any healing help, it's 20%.

    That does not detract from my final statement:

    The ultimate DPS required is higher in 30 man than 10 man due to scaling. It may be easier to achieve in 30 man due to encounter mechanics and more versatility with setups, but in the end, the boss has more than 3x as much health for 30 people compared to 10 people.



    (Also lol @ you Bigbazz, I literally added an entire paragraph at the end of the numbers to explain exactly what you're saying and yet you seem to think I don't understand. Please feel free to read the fucking post you're quoting before you get all defensive).

  6. #26
    I think the point people are making is the dps required per damage dealer is lower in 30man then 12man because more % of then raid is dmg. Just looking at the 'safe' standard setup, for 30 2/7/21, so just over 2/3 of the raid is dmg. for 12 2/3/7 58.3% dmg. Looking at the 'aggressive' setup, for 30 2/5/23 so 76.6% dmg. for 12 2/2/8 so 2/3. So if you treat both on the same line you get around 9% extra dmg dealers in the bigger raid size. Hence less dps required per dmg.

    So whilst there is more overall dps required in the groups of 30, the actual dps requirements per dmg dealers are less.
    Last edited by Aktec; 2015-08-23 at 04:56 PM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Einsz View Post
    There is no mechanic on archimonde heroic that makes you lose dps if you "handle" it. You are just looking for excuses to get away with your crap damage. Your problem seems to be that you raid with really bad players not the group size.
    I don't need to look for any excuses, my personal dps is very strong and the last problem my raid has is dps, we have Archi HC on farm so it's just an observational post that I made. My point is absolutely true in a realistic world of the everyday raider, you can't approach everything like "that isn't hard or harder, you're just making an excuse and should be supremely awesome and excellent at strategy and execution or go fuck off noob" attitude.

    You ever tried to 10man Archimonde with 3 melee dps? You have a tactic that doesn't work and you have to argue over tactics because one person doesn't agree with the other, one person thinks execution and survival is the only issue and the dps complain they don't have enough uptime due to tactics that reduce dps, and failed execution. All of the known tactics for this fight would fail in this situation and you would absolutely fail on dps without something special pulled out of the bag to make it work.

    Wrought Chaos, Chains, Nether Banish all have a large effect on your raid.. You try focussing in on dps when you have to ping pong Wrought Chaos continuously over and over as a melee. It's absolutely a problem that can be overcome with a top end Mythic guild approach, where complex strategy and execution pay off... That doesn't mean it's realistic or easy for average groups to just pull out of their ass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    To the people saying I'm dividing it by raid size instead of DPS players;
    Of course I fucking am. You're complaining about the raid sizes. You can drop healers and add healers in either difficulty to skew the results of what needs more output. People are correct that tanks make up a bigger part of your raid in a 10 man, however, that also means that you have a much smaller needs for healers in 10 man if you run any of the self-sustaining tanks; Instead of just 6% of your raid being virtually immortal and not needing any healing help, it's 20%.

    That does not detract from my final statement:

    The ultimate DPS required is higher in 30 man than 10 man due to scaling. It may be easier to achieve in 30 man due to encounter mechanics and more versatility with setups, but in the end, the boss has more than 3x as much health for 30 people compared to 10 people.



    (Also lol @ you Bigbazz, I literally added an entire paragraph at the end of the numbers to explain exactly what you're saying and yet you seem to think I don't understand. Please feel free to read the fucking post you're quoting before you get all defensive).
    You're hammering in on an irrelevant point, and you're completely ignoring raid composition differences between a 10/30man and the effect of mechanics in a 30man.. I get that you understand those points but you still don't understand them enough to see why what you're posting is pointless when used in the discussion of this specific boss.

    Dps requirements in a smaller group are higher because of these factors.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2015-08-23 at 05:54 PM.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  8. #28
    Deleted
    its pretty simple,every single 30man grp ive seen yet used 6healers,some only 5.
    when you look around,theres plenty of groups trying setups like 2/5/13 or the shitty 2/4/9 --> you could just add 3dps and wouldnt have any dps related problems at all
    -->longer p1-->more inc dmg+bursts+doomfire and way more problems handling infernals,the "normal bad" pug just usually trys to "outheal" bosses and well thats a pretty stupid idea,atleast for a boss like archimonde.
    Last edited by mmocb930624b69; 2015-08-24 at 03:51 AM.

  9. #29
    Deleted
    What most hard for me in Archi 30 man is
    as melee cant see Anything
    As rager p1 spread is pain in the ass
    Otherwise 24+ ppl which was our minimum amount of ppl on kill are prety much enough to deal with fight mechanics smoothly w/o to wory that losing a person in last phase can easly lead to wipe on 4-5 %
    The only way this boss to be avalibable for 10-12 man group is if they drop the number of chains and infernals and set a longer respawn rate to these adds drom nether realm wirls
    No need to say that you still need 3 ppl to go in realm instead 2 lets say to not trigger boss Heling
    Folowing this they can made the fight for 30 man more dificult not loot pinata by increasing number of chains and infernals with 1
    Last edited by mmoc2b5ad7a33a; 2015-08-25 at 01:48 AM.

  10. #30
    Well didnt they scale only the hp cos they didnt like how in soo the magical number of 14 ppl was for most optimal raid number. Cos going over would make it trigger extra mechanic.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Just wanted to say that this isn't strictly speaking true. While no 10 man groups has recorded a kill yet, the dps/healing requirements aren't actually higher on a per-player basis. It's true that other mechanics becomes harder to handle (such as shackles/infernals taunting etc) due to a smaller size, but for 12 man (lowest size with a kill), 20 and 30 man these numbers all hold true:

    12:
    Archimonde - 152.7M = 12.75M per player.
    Doomfire spirit - 4.35M = 362.5K per player.
    Void add - 3.52M = 293.34K per player.
    Infernals - 1.09M = 90.83K per player.

    20:
    Archimonde - 258.71M = 12.94M per player.
    Doomfire spirit - 7.37M = 368.5K per player.
    Void add - 5.97M = 298.5K per player.
    Infernals - 1.85M = 92.5K per player.

    30:
    Archimonde - 391.23M = 13.04M per player.
    Doomfire spirit - 11.14M = 371.3K per player.
    Void add - 9.02M = 300.67K per player.
    Infernals - 2.8M = 93.3K per player.

    Generally, this has always been the case; The ultimate dps/HPS requirements are lower on a per-player basis in smaller raid sizes.
    It is, as said, entirely true that encounter mechanics will then (usually) favor bigger raid sizes - EG, having 3x people out of 10x need to run and break shackles will cost more overall damage/healing than 3x players out of 30, which balances it all up nicely in the end. Blizzard are not stupid - they tune low-size raids with the assumption that they'll do less damage/healing due to more players dealing with mechanics.
    It is, however, just plain out FALSE that there is a lower dps requirement for bigger raid sizes than smaller raid sizes. It is the exact opposite; The ultimate DPS requirement is higher in bigger raid sizes.


    Don't spread lies or information you have not researched, please.
    1. DPS to raid ratio increases with more players
    2. Less time wasted in mechanics -> more DPS

    Then there are other minor factors (10 man might miss a buff or two, etc) which makes small groups harder
    Last edited by PrairieChicken; 2015-08-25 at 01:46 PM.
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    The ultimate DPS requirement is higher in bigger raid sizes.
    You're actually wrong about this. You're including tanks/healers in the damage per player calculation, but they're generally negligible when compared to a DPS. So in a 12 man, you have 2 tanks, 3 healers, and 7 DPS. So really it's 152.7/7 = 21.8m damage per DPS. In a 30 man, you have 6 healers max, 2 tanks, and 22 DPS, or 391.23/22 = 17.78m damage per DPS.

    More importantly, the portals don't scale appropriately and so at 10 man you need to send like 3 DPS and a tank down which is 40% of your raid, while in a 30 man 5 dps and a tank is generally enough, which is 20% of your raid, which means dealing with infernals and damage on archimonde is a lot simpler.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    You're complaining about the raid sizes. You can drop healers and add healers in either difficulty to skew the results of what needs more output.
    No. 2 tanks, 2 healers, 8 DPS is still 152.7/8 = 19.1m damage per DPS, which is still higher than overhealing it as a 30 man (391.23/21 = 18.63m per DPS). Don't be an idiot, please.
    Last edited by jMerliN; 2015-08-26 at 10:16 AM.

  13. #33
    I have found that generally 16-18 man is a good number. 2 tanks-4 healers-10/12 dps. Send a healer with each group and no screw up and it is easy. At the end, it depends on groups not failing in phase 3.

    For 30 you could use the 3 tank strat and cheese it.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by xcess View Post
    Well didnt they scale only the hp cos they didnt like how in soo the magical number of 14 ppl was for most optimal raid number. Cos going over would make it trigger extra mechanic.
    that was only before they introduced the scaling, after ward all 14 people ment was it had an 80% chance for the mechanic to have an extra target, just like having 14 people would give an 80% chance at an extra piece of loot, but going to the 15th would make it 100%.

    before they fixed it in SoO it was 14 people, 0% chance for the mechanic to target another person, since it only changed at 15, but people just kept going with the 14 is best even after because of ignorance.

  15. #35
    The fight is MUCH easier with a higher number of players for sure. I don't really care what math or even developers suggest.
    I've done it two weeks in a row now.

    Tuesday night 17 people, wednesday night 22 people.
    Tuesday night, wipe all night, wednesday night 2 shot it.
    Even if it means bringing in some lower geared players, I would recommend it ESPECIALLY if they are range. If their job is nothing but to kill the shadows, they are contributing enough.
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by NoobistTV-Metro View Post
    The fight is MUCH easier with a higher number of players for sure. I don't really care what math or even developers suggest.
    I've done it two weeks in a row now.

    Tuesday night 17 people, wednesday night 22 people.
    Tuesday night, wipe all night, wednesday night 2 shot it.
    Even if it means bringing in some lower geared players, I would recommend it ESPECIALLY if they are range. If their job is nothing but to kill the shadows, they are contributing enough.
    Counter arguing that, the last 2 times I've killed archimonde hc it's gone as follows; 20 man 4:30 kill, 30 man, 6:28. Since you just said it's easier with more people regardless of ilvl, I'm not going to include the ilvls of both groups here. I'd say a 4:30 archi encounter is easier than a 6:28 archi encounter, because everything is dealt with easier and faster.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Valq View Post
    Counter arguing that, the last 2 times I've killed archimonde hc it's gone as follows; 20 man 4:30 kill, 30 man, 6:28. Since you just said it's easier with more people regardless of ilvl, I'm not going to include the ilvls of both groups here. I'd say a 4:30 archi encounter is easier than a 6:28 archi encounter, because everything is dealt with easier and faster.
    A group of 20 with avg ilvl 718 who can all pull 95% is obviously going to kill a boss faster than a group of 30 with avg ilvl 705 with carries and such, regardless of the DPS requirement being lower in the latter.

    Do Archimonde heroic with 10 people with an ilvl of 705, then try it with 30 with an ilvl of 705 doing the same DPS per person. I don't think the former has actually been done yet, but the latter is easy.

    I realize ssff did a near-fastest kill with 12, but you know if they brought all mains and 3 healed a 30 man, they'd easily get the fastest kill time. I don't think anyone really tries for fastest kills on heroic for warcraftlogs.
    Last edited by jMerliN; 2015-08-27 at 06:45 PM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by jMerliN View Post
    A group of 20 with avg ilvl 718 who can all pull 95% is obviously going to kill a boss faster than a group of 30 with avg ilvl 705 with carries and such, regardless of the DPS requirement being lower in the latter.

    Do Archimonde heroic with 10 people with an ilvl of 705, then try it with 30 with an ilvl of 705 doing the same DPS per person. I don't think the former has actually been done yet, but the latter is easy.

    I realize ssff did a near-fastest kill with 12, but you know if they brought all mains and 3 healed a 30 man, they'd easily get the fastest kill time. I don't think anyone really tries for fastest kills on heroic for warcraftlogs.
    Read the post I replied to, he said it's easier with more people regardless of item level, so I excluded item level in my post to show that it's not really as simple as he makes it sound. I don't necessarily disagree with the notion that more people = easier raid, neither do I blindly agree with it.

    And no, 30 man 705 item level archi wasn't easy, a lot of the guilds sitting at 10-11 mythic kills now couldn't down archi for the first week or two when they had the lower item levels. Sure, it's easy for the top 100 guilds, but this whole discussion is irrelevant if we're using the top 100 as a measuring stick.
    Last edited by Valq; 2015-08-27 at 08:21 PM.

  19. #39
    Anything over 20 is fine, less makes it harder. In response to these idiots, always kick players that aern't pooling their weight if your struggling for a kill. Anyone doing less than 45-50k on heroic archi is just deadweight.
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  20. #40
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Valq View Post
    Counter arguing that, the last 2 times I've killed archimonde hc it's gone as follows; 20 man 4:30 kill, 30 man, 6:28. Since you just said it's easier with more people regardless of ilvl, I'm not going to include the ilvls of both groups here. I'd say a 4:30 archi encounter is easier than a 6:28 archi encounter, because everything is dealt with easier and faster.
    Quicker doesnt always mean easier, remember when people pugged Imperator with a lot of healers? That made the fight longer, but it was a lot easier to kill it in a pug.

    Archimonde hc is without a doubt easier to kill with more people, I don't think anyone with a clue could deny that. What people tend to forget to add is that, yes, it's useful to add more people, but they need to be smart people. Obviously, if you have 20 good players, and you add 10 shitty ones, you wont make the fight easier. But if you add 10 capable ones, the fight WILL be easier without a doubt.

    Right now Archi hc is really easy since there are a lot of rings over 750 and peopple are fully hc geared, but I know several guilds that the weeks after the patch couldn't down it with just the usual 20 man roster, adding 10 good ones with finder gave the kill right away.

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