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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selastan View Post
    I don't want to do mythic Archimonde. I don't really want to do Archimonde at all. There should be more for casuals than casual raiding. There is more to war than the frontlines, after all. Raiding should be a huge thing that involves much more than the 25 people to walk into the door. The guy who put the rare, now unobtainable, enchantment from three expansions ago on the shield of the MT that just happens to make him immune to a big bad's special attack could do more to help earn a world first than the tank himself, and he might never have to ever enter a raid. I think that makes everything a bit more immersive.

    That might explain why you can't convince neither the devs or a lot of raiders that LFR should be removed. You see the guys that actually want to raid don't give a damn that LFR is crap usually. They know it's useless so they want strictly to do the hardest bosses.

    You think Ulduar would be crap if it had LFR? Damn no, the raid was beautiful.

    PS. Granted, its hard mode unlock system was cool, but hard to implement.

  2. #22
    I am Murloc! Selastan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobindax View Post
    That might explain why you can't convince neither the devs or a lot of raiders that LFR should be removed. You see the guys that actually want to raid don't give a damn that LFR is crap usually. They know it's useless so they want strictly to do the hardest bosses.

    You think Ulduar would be crap if it had LFR? Damn no, the raid was beautiful.

    PS. Granted, its hard mode unlock system was cool, but hard to implement.
    I do LOVE that raid, and its hard mode was indeed perfect, I wish all raids did what it did rather than just a "toggle switch".
    But honestly, now that you bring it up it does give me a new example of how my crafting would work in a raid. You know those siege engines in the beginning? What if they weren't just there, you had to craft them. And crafting them was a quest in its own, with just as much time investment for individuals as gearing up for the raid would be. The siege engines are crafted by engineers with parts from blacksmiths and fuel from alchemists. When Ulduar is released, some guild members gear up, the rest get to crafting. I would much rather be on a quest to learn how to build one of the bikes than reading up on which of the Assembly of Iron needs to die first, or how the patch changed my class' rotation. And it is a hell of a lot better than running it once in LFR and then waiting for the next patch.

  3. #23
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    I can see several flaws in the way you wish for things to pan out, but the biggest argument I can think of to refute your premise behind letting the "elite" do their thing - is that these elites now have to wait for "casuals" to take the time to farm up recipes and mats and such just so that they can do the content they want to do.

    Scenario:
    I'm a mythic raider and my raid team is psyched for the first tier of raiding in Legion (or a future xpac)..... except we can't do the first boss because all the casuals that are required to make the gear/flasks/enchants haven't farmed up enough resources to gear out my 20 man raid team, or any of the other 20 man raid teams on the server. I'm now on a month long waiting list to have a full raid group. Except now these other players that I need to swap in for certain fights need to get these crafted items - so we're now waiting again - for casuals to farm up these mats and such to provide for a sub. Long story short - you'd essentially be gating Mythic raids by time frames dictated by casuals (would be sooooooo horrible for the community - a community that honestly doesn't need more tension between "elites" and "casuals").

    Preemptive rebuttal to "Mythic raiders can just chip in to craft stuff too." Sure, they absolutely could - except now every mythic raider is going to and the "casual" portion of the game has been trivialized.

    Also, what about all the players that are skilled enough and really enjoy raiding (heroic), but not quite up to par for mythic? They just get kicked to the curb and now have no content to participate in? How about Blizz wanting to tell their story to the entire player base by having the major figures be boss fights to indicate the scale/severity/etc? ~95% of all players now will have to go look it up on YouTube. Not good for the story telling portion of the game.

    I do agree that professions could be much more influential and that they need a major overhaul that includes end-game progression (meaning they can be worked on after cap in some fashion), but professions can't be the alternative to raiding nor can they be the linchpin to raid mechanics.

    edit: I hope this doesn't come off as condescending - those questions (even the rhetorical ones) were meant to provoke more thought.
    Last edited by Chickntender; 2015-09-02 at 04:05 AM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selastan View Post
    I do LOVE that raid, and its hard mode was indeed perfect, I wish all raids did what it did rather than just a "toggle switch".
    But honestly, now that you bring it up it does give me a new example of how my crafting would work in a raid. You know those siege engines in the beginning? What if they weren't just there, you had to craft them. And crafting them was a quest in its own, with just as much time investment for individuals as gearing up for the raid would be. The siege engines are crafted by engineers with parts from blacksmiths and fuel from alchemists. When Ulduar is released, some guild members gear up, the rest get to crafting. I would much rather be on a quest to learn how to build one of the bikes than reading up on which of the Assembly of Iron needs to die first, or how the patch changed my class' rotation. And it is a hell of a lot better than running it once in LFR and then waiting for the next patch.

    I believe the Ulduar hard mode system is universally recognized to be the epitome of hard mode systems. However, it's extremely difficult to come up with new ways to do it every single boss every single raid.



    I'm now thinking that they could add a "button" by default like in (looking his name up, it's been too long) Mimiron, but that might be too silly. That boss fit with it because it was about robots.

    It might be also an issue with not being able to get the normal mode loot if you hard mode, but that might be the least of the problems compared to the main one.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selastan View Post
    I do LOVE that raid, and its hard mode was indeed perfect, I wish all raids did what it did rather than just a "toggle switch".
    But honestly, now that you bring it up it does give me a new example of how my crafting would work in a raid. You know those siege engines in the beginning? What if they weren't just there, you had to craft them. And crafting them was a quest in its own, with just as much time investment for individuals as gearing up for the raid would be. The siege engines are crafted by engineers with parts from blacksmiths and fuel from alchemists. When Ulduar is released, some guild members gear up, the rest get to crafting. I would much rather be on a quest to learn how to build one of the bikes than reading up on which of the Assembly of Iron needs to die first, or how the patch changed my class' rotation. And it is a hell of a lot better than running it once in LFR and then waiting for the next patch.
    What about pugging? what if no one in my group has the mats and now we are screwed and have to run through a gauntlet of trash and be ineffetive against a boss

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selastan View Post
    What if they weren't just there, you had to craft them.

    If you mean nobody would be able to raid without those quests first then it might be a problem. It reminds of the TBC problem: People had to go back to old tiers to level up their new guild members and that ruined guilds.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobindax View Post
    If you mean nobody would be able to raid without those quests first then it might be a problem. It reminds of the TBC problem: People had to go back to old tiers to level up their new guild members and that ruined guilds.
    Yeah i agree, it shouldnt be mandatiory

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chickntender View Post
    I can see several flaws in the way you wish for things to pan out, but the biggest argument I can think of to refute your premise behind letting the "elite" do their thing - is that these elites now have to wait for "casuals" to take the time to farm up recipes and mats and such just so that they can do the content they want to do.

    Scenario:
    I'm a mythic raider and my raid team is psyched for the first tier of raiding in Legion (or a future xpac)..... except we can't do the first boss because all the casuals that are required to make the gear/flasks/enchants haven't farmed up enough resources to gear out my 20 man raid team, or any of the other 20 man raid teams on the server. I'm now on a month long waiting list to have a full raid group. Except now these other players that I need to swap in for certain fights need to get these crafted items - so we're now waiting again - for casuals to farm up these mats and such to provide for a sub. Long story short - you'd essentially be gating Mythic raids by time frames dictated by casuals (would be sooooooo horrible for the community - a community that honestly doesn't need more tension between "elites" and "casuals").

    Preemptive rebuttal to "Mythic raiders can just chip in to craft stuff too." Sure, they absolutely could - except now every mythic raider is going to and the "casual" portion of the game has been trivialized.

    Also, what about all the players that are skilled enough and really enjoy raiding (heroic), but not quite up to par for mythic? They just get kicked to the curb and now have no content to participate in? How about Blizz wanting to tell their story to the entire player base by having the major figures be boss fights to indicate the scale/severity/etc? ~95% of all players now will have to go look it up on YouTube. Not good for the story telling portion of the game.

    I do agree that professions could be much more influential and that they need a major overhaul that includes end-game progression (meaning they can be worked on after cap in some fashion), but professions can't be the alternative to raiding nor can they be the linchpin to raid mechanics.

    edit: I hope this doesn't come off as condescending - those questions (even the rhetorical ones) were meant to provoke more thought.
    Thanks for making solid arguments. I would say that the "gating" created by casuals having to craft up the items is a good thing. Assuming you are not on the first raid of an expansion (which should be entry level, anyway), there is much for raiders to do. Raiders have their part to play, its not just waiting around. Any required end game crafted item should require materials that need to be gotten by raiders, be it a flowers that only grow in a mid-tier raid or skull level boss that needs to be killed in an alchemist's current quest chain. The system is also meant to give raiders more to do than run the same raid on repeat. The most obvious thing they can do is to keep trying the raid. Its meant to be failed, maybe with a big reduction in repair costs when you die in a current raid. The raiders test mechanics, figure out strategies, and if they are still failing by the time the crafters start producing, it gets a little easier.

    As for people who feel not quite up to mythic raiding but would like something in between...This is perfect for them. I was envisioning returning to "one size, one difficulty" raids, with the "mythic" difficulty just being the latest raid, "heroic" the tier before it, etc. As mentioned before, there is much to do raid wise rather than what is the most difficult at the time. These middle ground raiders can be part of the team that raids mid tier raids, getting mats for crafters, cool gear to show off (as epic gear is now much harder to come by, and kind of a status symbol), invaluable experience, and just have fun. I was never quite good at raiding, and back in BC when raids were arguably at their hardest, I had Kara, ZA, Gruul, and part of SSC under my belt by the time Wrath launched. I wasn't disappointed I never seen the inside of BT or the Sunwell. In fact, going back to run them at a higher level to see the story, it was great. I was at my limit in the earliest of tiers, and there were people doing these things that were so much harder. It doesn't do it justice to watch it on youtube. It does it even less justice to let people "run it for the story" while it is current. Running Sunwell at a higher level a few expansions later with memories of how hard it was gives you a sense that the people who ran it then were legends.

    All things said, my goal was to make end game raiding more of an "event" than something you do once a week, to make the actual mob and boss killing only one small part of the raid.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Riptor View Post
    What about pugging? what if no one in my group has the mats and now we are screwed and have to run through a gauntlet of trash and be ineffetive against a boss
    Just an example. PUGs have their place, maybe downing a few bosses if the raid is current, or if it as few tiers old completing it. As some mats can only gathered from inside instances, better off guilds who are busy with current content could even hire PUGs to gather up some mats while they focus on other things.

  9. #29
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Actually, though I don't favor the system as described in the OP, there are some good ideas here. I wouldn't make professions the only center or even the main center of 'casual' play because there's no one casual play style. However, SOME people would LOVE the ability to be one of a few alchemists on the server who can make a particular flask (few doesn't need to mean 5, it might be 50 or, on very high pop servers, 500). We used to have a light version of this when we farmed up recipes in raids or off world mobs. Making some aspects of crafting harder and requiring some real dedication is one thing that I think would really help the game.

    The trick is to do this for several different play styles, not just one. If I'm casual but don't want to focus on professions, what do I have? What if I want to focus on small group PVE for example? Or was very into exploration? I'd love to see Blizzard try to identify the main segments of the player base and create content for them rather than assume everyone either raids or PVPs and that's it.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Actually, though I don't favor the system as described in the OP, there are some good ideas here. I wouldn't make professions the only center or even the main center of 'casual' play because there's no one casual play style. However, SOME people would LOVE the ability to be one of a few alchemists on the server who can make a particular flask (few doesn't need to mean 5, it might be 50 or, on very high pop servers, 500). We used to have a light version of this when we farmed up recipes in raids or off world mobs. Making some aspects of crafting harder and requiring some real dedication is one thing that I think would really help the game.

    The trick is to do this for several different play styles, not just one. If I'm casual but don't want to focus on professions, what do I have? What if I want to focus on small group PVE for example? Or was very into exploration? I'd love to see Blizzard try to identify the main segments of the player base and create content for them rather than assume everyone either raids or PVPs and that's it.
    It would be a very trade oriented economy. Almost everything revolves around gathering mats, so boss drops will be in high demand, as well as rare mob drops, and mats that might only show up once in a blue moon in a quiet area. No one wants to run dungeons on repeat, so a leatherworker might want to get a few skins from a dungeon mob, but he needs far more than he can get in one run. He asks you to get some PUGs and start running, paying by the hide. (If you havent noticed, I don't like the Auction house, not as it is, anyway)

  11. #31
    What about mats that have a very low drop rate? I remember when Frost Lotus were needed for some raiding flasks/potions and if you found one, you could sell it for 50g (a lot of money back then).

    I liked the MoP model where the crafting professions could make 2 pieces of high end gear for a toon - pants and belt. It took me 7 weeks to make the set for my mage, which is how she partly got ready for raiding.

  12. #32
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selastan View Post
    Thanks for making solid arguments. I would say that the "gating" created by casuals having to craft up the items is a good thing. Assuming you are not on the first raid of an expansion (which should be entry level, anyway), there is much for raiders to do. Raiders have their part to play, its not just waiting around. Any required end game crafted item should require materials that need to be gotten by raiders, be it a flowers that only grow in a mid-tier raid or skull level boss that needs to be killed in an alchemist's current quest chain. The system is also meant to give raiders more to do than run the same raid on repeat. The most obvious thing they can do is to keep trying the raid. Its meant to be failed, maybe with a big reduction in repair costs when you die in a current raid. The raiders test mechanics, figure out strategies, and if they are still failing by the time the crafters start producing, it gets a little easier.

    As for people who feel not quite up to mythic raiding but would like something in between...This is perfect for them. I was envisioning returning to "one size, one difficulty" raids, with the "mythic" difficulty just being the latest raid, "heroic" the tier before it, etc. As mentioned before, there is much to do raid wise rather than what is the most difficult at the time. These middle ground raiders can be part of the team that raids mid tier raids, getting mats for crafters, cool gear to show off (as epic gear is now much harder to come by, and kind of a status symbol), invaluable experience, and just have fun. I was never quite good at raiding, and back in BC when raids were arguably at their hardest, I had Kara, ZA, Gruul, and part of SSC under my belt by the time Wrath launched. I wasn't disappointed I never seen the inside of BT or the Sunwell. In fact, going back to run them at a higher level to see the story, it was great. I was at my limit in the earliest of tiers, and there were people doing these things that were so much harder. It doesn't do it justice to watch it on youtube. It does it even less justice to let people "run it for the story" while it is current. Running Sunwell at a higher level a few expansions later with memories of how hard it was gives you a sense that the people who ran it then were legends.
    Sorry, but he is spot on and you are dead wrong. All your "refreshing" suggestions already happened in WoW one way or another and it was horrible.

    You had in Vanilla Ahn'Qiraj gates being shut until whole server brings 10000 of food, bandages and similar amounts of other resources, which literally resulted in some less populated servers having those gates open only like after a month or more causing the otherwise very capable raiders in those realms sit twisting their thumbs for month being cockblocked from progress by reliance on people who did not give a damn that much or had other priorities.

    You also had virtually impossible to complete raids for any but the bleeding edge, sounds like a terrific idea except that you had whole guilds evaporate just because of being hopelessly stuck on some entry bosses with nothing else they could do, for example Brutallus which caused great many guilds to disappear as their raid teams got vultured and picked apart by guilds who managed to get through. Or whole major raids being rehashed just because only like 1% completed their initial version.

    We already had all these things and they were not good. Your suggestions are literally a blast from the shitty past that won't fly in 2015. In 2004 it would be acceptable because all games were in a mindset that trying to shave with a sharp rock instead of shaving razor was a good and fun gameplay. Over the years many games appeared which implemented a revolutionary idea of having fun activities accessible instead of having to waste 90% of the game time on preparing to have fun and wow changed to come closer to that and it's a good thing, because in the end making 10000 grilled rat tails is, while accessible, no fun and just a bore-chore, while l trying to kill Twin Emperors is actually fun and what should be more accessible.

  13. #33
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    Let's create awesome looking areas and bad ass looking character models, but only let a tiny percentage actually experience it. Sounds like a great distribution of manpower.

    Somehow Hardcore raiders trying to shun lesser beings feels like a bunch of arsenal players harassing a couple of kids playing a 5 on 5 in the park because they aren't doing it right since their goalposts are coats!

    "pssh, you aren't even wearing kicks, get out loser!"
    "You don't even have 11 players each, scrubs!"

  14. #34
    I am Murloc! Selastan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Sorry, but he is spot on and you are dead wrong. All your "refreshing" suggestions already happened in WoW one way or another and it was horrible.

    You had in Vanilla Ahn'Qiraj gates being shut until whole server brings 10000 of food, bandages and similar amounts of other resources, which literally resulted in some less populated servers having those gates open only like after a month or more causing the otherwise very capable raiders in those realms sit twisting their thumbs for month being cockblocked from progress by reliance on people who did not give a damn that much or had other priorities.

    You also had virtually impossible to complete raids for any but the bleeding edge, sounds like a terrific idea except that you had whole guilds evaporate just because of being hopelessly stuck on some entry bosses with nothing else they could do, for example Brutallus which caused great many guilds to disappear as their raid teams got vultured and picked apart by guilds who managed to get through. Or whole major raids being rehashed just because only like 1% completed their initial version.

    We already had all these things and they were not good. Your suggestions are literally a blast from the shitty past that won't fly in 2015. In 2004 it would be acceptable because all games were in a mindset that trying to shave with a sharp rock instead of shaving razor was a good and fun gameplay. Over the years many games appeared which implemented a revolutionary idea of having fun activities accessible instead of having to waste 90% of the game time on preparing to have fun and wow changed to come closer to that and it's a good thing, because in the end making 10000 grilled rat tails is, while accessible, no fun and just a bore-chore, while l trying to kill Twin Emperors is actually fun and what should be more accessible.
    Alright, imagine that instead of making 10000 rat tails you have to do something akin to the mallet of zul'farrak, but at max level. Things like that are what I find the most fun about the game, and those were sadly considered only an undesirable part of leveling and removed when Blizzard decided to make the leveling process more of a tutorial than part of the game. Like I said before, its sad Blizzard focuses so hard on raiding, and if you can't kill the bosses yourself you are expected to raid LFR. Its all raid raid raid. Ive seen Blizzard make some damned good quest chains that take you all over the world, and for me, getting attuned to a raid was more fun than actually running it. Ahn'Qiraj was a bit of an extreame example, and more of a grind than an effort. Think just the Scepter chain without the gate opening event, and not just one chain of quests, but a whole different chain for blacksmiths, another for alchemists, and so on. Everyone gets a whole epic quest to complete that requires a guild. A non-raider who works hard and has a good guild would feel just a special as someone who raided.

    I feel like I praise Runescape way to much on this forum, but I feel like before RS3 came out it was the best MMO out there. Combat was a focus, but not the main feature. Some people carried abyssal whips and fire capes, others cut down trees and fished. Jagex didn't make the combat easier so everyone could get fire capes, they gave them new ores to mine, new quests to do. Anyone could level his fishing and cooking to the max to get the food he needed to fight the higher level mobs, but leveling your combat that hight, fishing AND cooking would take a long time. A combat orient player needed a fisherman. Ive always felt a system like this would work even better in the guild oriented WoW, and its what I imagined guilds would actually be. A group of different playstyles and such that complemented each other, not just a particular group of raiders who had their own special chat.

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