Mythic Mannoroth help

[DarkDays]

Hi everyone,

since my guild is progressing Mannoroth quite a while (110 pulls up until today), but no real consistent progress is made, i got the okay from my raidlead to get feedback from outside.

logs: warcraftlogs.com/reports/JVjZYg6zRx3921Cm#translate=true&type=summary

setup:
3 tanks: dk and pala for boss; warrior on doomlord; tried 2 tanking yet it got quite messy when the doomlord didn't die fast enough
4 heal: disc priest, holy priest, druid, monk or shaman depending on who is available
1 other dk for aoe grip
1 Demo, 1 or 2 Warriors, 2/3 Combat Rogues for Imps handling

tactic up till now:
phase 1:
Mannoroth is tanked facing the purple pillar
Felseeker -> ranged move from the left side of Mannoroth to right and reverse when the next Felseeker is happening
Curse of the Legion -> dispelled when it's not live threatening
Explosive Doom Spike -> warrior moves out of the raid
Mark of Doom -> 2nd Shadow Bolt Volley wont be kicked to trigger the explosion when ppl have moved out; no fix marks are assign ppl just have to get out of the raid
Imps -> ppl stand loosely in a healing cricle (shaman or druid), Grips from DKs, nuked from warriors/rogue/demolock
Fel Hellstorm -> ppl spread out to avoid dmg
General DPS order -> Doomlord/single Imps > Golems > Boss

phase 2:
Wrath -> debuffed ppl move into the corners of a square, 8 ppl with immunities rotate to soak up the debuffs, healer stands close to the tanks who soak that debuff
Gaze -> everyone moves to the tanks and CDs are used
Mark of Doom -> Debuffed ppl move to the left/right side of the pillar, two stack on one Raidmark
Shadowforce -> ppl who don't have a debuff run to the tank so that they get pushed against the pillar

After that the ppl who stand on top of the tanks should again move out, yet up until now we mostly wipe right after the imps spawned.

Some problems i am already aware of when looking at the logs of tonight. Those are as far as i can see no prepot use, hardly any tonic/healthstones.

Yet i'd like to have some critique about what went wrong/has to improve or even if we do something compeletly wrong.

[Deja Thoris]

Personally I can't abide by the 3 tank / 4 healer comps.

More healers means less dps. This means doomlords last longer and later in the fight you may have trouble with imps when your aoe Gods have shadowforce or are feared. Same for more tanks.

The damage taken in this fight is perfectly managable by 3 healers unless you eat loads of fire and damage from imps landing. For the annoying overlaps you need cooldowns such as barrier / rally / devo / whatever your comp has.

[CenariusTheForestLord]

Starting with comp. 2 tank it. 3 heal it. Cooldown wise I'd recommend going without the holy priest. Shaman totem is OP on imps. Barrier on Gazes. Rally other parts. Tranq is amazing too. Holy just doesn't bring anything to the table (unless he outheals the others by a large margin)

P1:
Seems ok apart from the curse. INSTANTLY dispell the curse or you'll get overlap in mechanics later on.
We blow up first doomlord with the ring (the explosion of it).
It usually gets oneshot and the tank doesn't even get a stack of the debuff.

P2:
Just move the people with doom to the people with wrath? 1 tick will do it.

LOG Analysis:
There's just a lot of personal failures by raiders. There's an arcane mage with 2/3 of the damage of your blood dk. There's a rogue doing just as much as the blood dk most of the time. And your unholy and ret are just above him. You're already losing a lot of dps by 3 tanking. (which is silly at this point) And then you have the added bonus of having at least 5 dps members who are doing tank DPS. I haven't gone through the logs in depth yet because I don't think I need to. You're not going to kill Mannoroth with 8 tanks and 4 healers.

EDIT: On a side note. The strategy you're using is more or less the way to go. But you need to abuse the fact you have the ring. Make sure it explodes on the target you want it to (not on imps, infernals). And make sure everyone is doing their best to make the explosion as big as they can. At that point only Doomlord 2 and 4 should be an issue. 1 and 3 should get oneshot by the ring. Maximizing ring use is of the utmost importance and will do much more than changing a tactic ever will.

[Deleted]

I believe the best strategy for an averagely skilled guild that is currently progressing is 2 tanks, 4 healers with Paragon's positioning. That strategy is extremely easy to understand and execute, but it does some more "step into the fire damage" but it is worth it for the simplicity of it and the extra healing will cover some of that clumsiness damage an average guild will inevitably have to some extend. Furthermore 2 tanking is very doable in execution since the tanks do almost nothing on 3 tanking, it would be easier than heroic mode to them and our tanks while not the best in the world keep telling us that they find no issue with 2 tanking and they even like the fight with the current balance of difficulty it has for them. With current gear and numbers, volleys and some accidental avoidable damage will be a breeze for 4 regular healers, and the last phase could use some extra raid healing since people see it rarely on progress and they will very likely get more avoidable frost patch damage and rain damage and imp spawn damage than needed and it appears the kind of fight that the motto "the dead can't DPS" applies in that situation.

[Dracodraco]

I believe the best strategy for an averagely skilled guild that is currently progressing is 2 tanks, 4 healers with Paragon's positioning. That strategy is extremely easy to understand and execute, but it does some more "step into the fire damage" but it is worth it for the simplicity of it and the extra healing will cover some of that clumsiness damage an average guild will inevitably have to some extend. Furthermore 2 tanking is very doable in execution since the tanks do almost nothing on 3 tanking, it would be easier than heroic mode to them and our tanks while not the best in the world keep telling us that they find no issue with 2 tanking and they even like the fight with the current balance of difficulty it has for them. With current gear and numbers, volleys and some accidental avoidable damage will be a breeze for 4 regular healers, and the last phase could use some extra raid healing since people see it rarely on progress and they will very likely get more avoidable frost patch damage and rain damage and imp spawn damage than needed and it appears the kind of fight that the motto "the dead can't DPS" applies in that situation.

As I've pointed out to you before, Paragons positioning and strategy was based around using the Doom Spike to blow up marks rather than the volley, which is why it worked so well for them. They had their 2-tank timings down to a science because of that. If you're just going to let all the volleys through either way and use two tanks, there's really no reason to move the raid around as much as they were doing - it just lowers your raid DPS for no real benefit. Either go with 3 tanks 3 healers and use doom spikes and strict positions for stability, or yolo it with 2 tanks 4 healers and get more damage by moving around less.

[Deleted]

there's really no reason to move the raid around as much as they were doing

Without sarcasm, I don't get exactly what you mean. I believe the ping ponging is done on p2 to bait the seeker and not care much about it (it's quite convenient for the most part), since part of the movement is done with lock portals. On p3 the raid mainly stays on the pillar and moves out only to bait the seeker (ranged).

[Dracodraco]

Without sarcasm, I don't get exactly what you mean. I believe the ping ponging is done on p2 to bait the seeker and not care much about it (it's quite convenient for the most part), since part of the movement is done with lock portals. On p3 the raid mainly stays on the pillar and moves out only to bait the seeker (ranged).

I'm assuming we're using P1/2/3/4 here not 1/2/3, as standing on the pillar would be suicide in what most people refer to as P3.

But essentially, they move the raid to the pillar for every shadowforce after the marks have exploded, to not get thrown off/stay in range of healers/not run after gazes, then have to move out quickly to bait seekers, wait for marks and repeat. Standard tactic would just move from side to side for seekers, follow gazes out and run back in repeat. There's far more movement moving everyone to the pillar everytime shadowforce comes and then moving far out for seekers with paragons tactic, but it was required for their doomguard tactic.

[RaimaNd]

Hey my friend!
I think the best way to see how to play a boss is to watch some videos, this is one of my first kills:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rLG7Zt4w9_4

Using rogue/mage to immune the doomlord is a nice trick. Think dks can do it too with ams but im not sure about it.

The doomlord can be tanked by the two mts so u dont beed another one.
Positioning and everything else can be figured out vy watching my video. ^^

[Deleted]

I see you are using the ping pong tactic and myself i feel its alot uneeded movement and gives you less space. You are way to stacked up durning helstorm and imps, loosely stacking in a healing circle is still to stacked, you are taking way to much damage from it. The only time you need to really stack and face a certain way is durning gaze and make sure imps are together. This is also why the stacking on manno is alot nicer, but its up to you what your guild prefers in the end. I just feel this tactic makes things harder then they auctually are.

Also not sure what the benefit of 3 tanking this fight is? 3 or 4 healing is a preference, altho 3 healing makes things easier to reach dps checks, our guild 4 healing it on first kill tho (few months ago). Altho i think 3 tanking and 4 healing is quite alot, but not impossible. But underneath i placed some comments about your healers, and their skills might be why you are resorting to 4 healing.

There is people not pre potting on every pull, theres even 8 people who have 0 prepots ALL WIPES. Even if you dont get the full duration its worth it, you still get like 6 secs of pot or something (forgot exact number). This does include healers and tanks but even worse also dps.

People aren´t useing many health potions and stones. Altho you havent progressed as far into the fight, people should remember to pop it when they get low or are in danger.

About your disc priest:
-Dont use cascade ever, it hits full hp pets and its healing is way worse then Halo.
-No 4 set? Doesnt he have it or does he refuse to use it? 4 set is very strong on progression.
-Archangel uptime can be improved
-Hes not using enough EAA PoH
-His 2 set uptime is very low, meaning hes not keeping penance on cd.
-Solace uptime could be improved.
-I dont see a single PI cast?
-Low Borrowed time uptime, meaning hes not casting enough pw:s
-Has 38 casts per min, this is very low. He should watch his ABC (always be casting), should be 50+

Your holy priest:
-Hes...not...casting circle of healing?? WHAT? Its one of his most important spells, should be cast on cd.
-Hes not casting PoM.....its also a very important spell he should cast on cd.
-Sanctuary is a spell alot of holy priest dont even bother casting, its second on healing for him wich worries me as it seems hes slacking.
-Echo healing is pretty low.
-Should cast his Divine star on cd
-Hes not using the 2x binding heal + PoH combo wich at this point i feel he should be using
-Also part of last comment, very low PoH casts, wich he should cast with 2x Serendipity buffs.
-Casting to much flash heal outside of surge of light. He might aswell get binding heal glyph and use that instead and auctually use the Serendipity stacks on PoH like said.

Your holy priest might be top healing on most wipes, but hes just cheese healing with Flash heal until he goes oom and is useless later in fight. Hes not healing effectivly and its pretty worrying a holy priest is top healing without healing right over your other healers. Holy priest shouldnt be over a disc or even a shaman, unless hes a really pro player.

Resto shaman:
-Could improve his Healing stream totem uptime.
-Very low EB casts even tho his mana isnt hurting most wipes he might need it later on. If he doesnt he should really drop some spirit. Tho might be more cause hes not casting enough.
-Riptide casts could be improved, should be cast on cd.
-Healing rain should be cast more aswell.
-Could be more aggresive with his Healing Surge casts if someone is getting low also has almost no healing wave casts. He should use this to top people off on low dmg income instead of chain heal.
-Generally should just cast more, seeing how much damage your raid is taking its not like he got nothing to do. But with only 28 casts per min its like hes afking half of the fight.
-More chain heal casts when aoe dmg.

[Summer]

Not sure why everyone's so against 3 tanking, we always 3 tanked it and still do (though that has more to do with DK alt for grips being blood than anything else). It makes things simpler with the Doomlords and not sure about how other guilds expereince this but it wasn't that rare for us to lose a tank in P3 so the extra tank is a nice backup. Mannoroth doesn't really have meaningful dps checks anyways, well, unless you're really close to getting an extra DL or something.

[Deleted]

Not sure why everyone's so against 3 tanking, we always 3 tanked it and still do (though that has more to do with DK alt for grips being blood than anything else). It makes things simpler with the Doomlords and not sure about how other guilds expereince this but it wasn't that rare for us to lose a tank in P3 so the extra tank is a nice backup. Mannoroth doesn't really have meaningful dps checks anyways, well, unless you're really close to getting an extra DL or something.

Im not against it, i just dont unstood why its needed. I guess i just missed this tactics. Our tank never got any problems with high dmg or deaths even on progress. Running out with doomspike should be easy and doomlord dies very quick anyway. I can understand it being a problem in early progress and before ilvl upgrade but not nowadays.

There is not a real dps check but having phases be shorter and doomlord and imps die quick does make it easier. Also the fact that 3 tank + 4 heal is something that i dont think is used often anymore.

But in all fairness if they want to do it like this, its not like they cant kill it. Its just something for them to consider trying if they struggeling in any dps parts.

[Deleted]

I'm assuming we're using P1/2/3/4 here not 1/2/3, as standing on the pillar would be suicide in what most people refer to as P3.

Yes I remember you supporting the 4-phases terminology that's why I didn't explain what terminology I used. Otherwise I would call it "last phase", "first wraths phase", "no wraths phase".

There's far more movement moving everyone to the pillar everytime shadowforce comes and then moving far out for seekers with paragons tactic, but it was required for their doomguard tactic.

I don't see it as a big deal on p3 where the group stays on pillar for most of it. The seekers are relatively rare and only ranged specs move. The positioning is generally very simplistic which fits an averagely skilled guild, it makes the wrath soaking very convenient because the soaking-box will be near the group and any remaining ~10 wrath stacks each can be spread to the main raid fast and conveniently and the main caveat I see is that the pillar stacking gives some promotion to storm and imp-spawn avoidable damage but 4-healing should have that very covered along with volley.

PS. On p4 they used the box as well and they avoided stepping on frost patches entirely but because both of those tactics are extremely hard to pull off for average guilds (especially the second) I haven't seen anyone lately doing it that way and they just go regularly with wraths staying out and patches being used as slowers.

[Summer]

PS. On p4 they used the box as well and they avoided stepping on frost patches entirely but because both of those tactics are extremely hard to pull off for average guilds (especially the second) I haven't seen anyone lately doing it that way and they just go regularly with wraths staying out and patches being used as slowers.

Always done it like that, what's extremely hard about it? Being on the right marker when Shadowforce start you never get pushed off, slowing patches aren't needed. And then the Wraths are gone and not a problem during each Shadowforce. The only minor problem is tanks have to survive out of healing range for a fair while and it's a bit easy for a careless Wrath soaker to die (may have happened to me at times) :P

[Deleted]

Always done it like that, what's extremely hard about it? Being on the right marker when Shadowforce start you never get pushed off, slowing patches aren't needed. And then the Wraths are gone and not a problem during each Shadowforce. The only minor problem is tanks have to survive out of healing range for a fair while and it's a bit easy for a careless Wrath soaker to die (may have happened to me at times) :P

Let's just say the "average guilds" expression is implied there with some strength because it won't be easy to make weak skilled players avoid dying from shadowforce without any patch on the ground because it requires both that they move correctly before the ability and they keep moving correctly after the ability.