[Enhancement Feedback] Doom Vortex and Aoe talents

[Deleted]

No, I don't think it will kill Crashing Storm. See, that tier is supposed to offer different AOE attacks. Right now, we pretty much have to pick Crashing Storms, but Fury of Air actually does the same amount of damage on their own, with FoA costing slightly more MS, but it's on all the time and doesn't need to be cast, freeing up GCDs for something else. The slow is kinda nice as well, so there is some utility as a trade for the higher MS cost.

Sundering would be for PvP or if you need a costly stun.

Alright okay, clearly FOA does not trigger Gathering Storms, but maybe all three talents on that tier should - or at least FOA in some fashion. And FOA can't proc Stormbringer either, but then again, I still think it's weird that CL can do that.

If you took FOA, you would have that + the occasional CL to cleave, and then there's your AOE. Or just take Crashing Storms for a simple rotation.

This would make the entire tier a proper AOE tier. Sure, FoAs cost could probably be changed to 4 MS/s, but eventually our MS generation is probably going to be high enough so that this doesn't matter.

[Devious009]

CL proccing SB over the other 2 talents is a big reason to take it and you're right they should all proc SB to make the talents on equal footing.

Would you guys be opposed to getting earthquake as an AoE spell for enhance? Will it pose any complication with enhancement's AoE rotation?

I'm just not sure what "trade off" we have to give up if we get EQ

[Nitwit]

You're going to use crash lightning while AOE'ing no matter what talent you take. Crash Lightning is what procs stormbringer, not crashing storm.

[Deleted]

Would you guys be opposed to getting earthquake as an AoE spell for enhance? Will it pose any complication with enhancement's AoE rotation?

I'm just not sure what "trade off" we have to give up if we get EQ

I don't feel like Earthquake is for enhancement. I think the idea of FoA is awesome, and I hope it becomes viable in some way. If you want an earthquake, you've got Sundering, and there you go!

You're going to use crash lightning while AOE'ing no matter what talent you take. Crash Lightning is what procs stormbringer, not crashing storm.

Yes, but not on cooldown, all the time, because that's a waste of MS. And if this is the problem, then we just need to remove the chance CL has of proccing SB. It makes no sense to use an AOE/Cleave *spell* during single target damage.

[Nitwit]

Yes, but not on cooldown, all the time, because that's a waste of MS.

> tfw proc'ing N hailstorms, flametongues and unleash doom missiles + the chance for windfuries and stormbringers + buffing your next stormstrike by (6+)N% is a waste of MS.

And if this is the problem, then we just need to remove the chance CL has of proccing SB. It makes no sense to use an AOE/Cleave *spell* during single target damage.

You use Fury of Air and Sundering against a single target if you take those talents (you just don't take them to begin with since they're tuned horribly) - why is crash lightning + crashing storm different?

[Imnick]

I think Qieth's whole point is that they want those talents to be tuned so that you don't use them on a single target, but doing that while also making them good against multiple targets is quite difficult.

[Deleted]

I think Qieth's whole point is that they want those talents to be tuned so that you don't use them on a single target

Precisely this.

> tfw proc'ing N hailstorms, flametongues and unleash doom missiles + the chance for windfuries and stormbringers + buffing your next stormstrike by (6+)N% is a waste of MS.

You use Fury of Air and Sundering against a single target if you take those talents (you just don't take them to begin with since they're tuned horribly) - why is crash lightning + crashing storm different?

Ah, but see this is the problem. Should crash lightning even apply hailstorm/flametongue to other targets? (and does it actually? It's hard to tell*). FB/FT is applied on weapon swings - if you call down thunder and lightning with a spell, your weapons aren't hitting the targets, your spell is. The same goes for Crash Lightning vs Stormbringer. SB reads "Your main hand attacks", so should it really count as a main hand attack? The only thing going for CL proccing SB is that CL "Requires a melee weapon".

* I suppose I could try and do Hailstorm > CL and see if it applies the Hailstorm debuff to all targets.

Let me address your other points:

- Gathering storms

Assuming CL is 30 MS and LL is 20, lets work with these approximate numbers:

Stormstrike: 200k
Lava Lash: 100k
Crash Lightning (talented): 85k

Let's compare Lava Lash into Stormstrike compared to Crash Lightning into Stormstrike:

Lava Lash/SS = 200k + 100k = 300k damage
CL/SS = 85k + (200k * 1.06) = 297k damage

But you are paying 30 MS for the Crash Lightning and 20 for the Lava Lash (with this suggestion), so your damage per maelstrom is 5 and 4,24 respectively. This means that it will not be worth casting Crash Lightning on single target for the artifact trait alone.

Perhaps then, on single target fights, you should cast boulderfist which should proc Stormbringer as well, since it's a main hand attack. In any case, CL shouldn't have a higher chance than abilities like Boulderfist to proc Stormbringer.

The whole point of this is to discourage casting Crash Lightning on Single Target DPS.

- Unleash Doom

Yes, I am fine with this generating a shard for each target hit with CL - but it should also generate a shard for each target hit by FoA, maybe on an internal cooldown. Let's not confuse "What makes sense" with "How it's working right now".

FoA/Sundering use:

If we make the tuning above, I am not sure we *would* be casting FoA and Sundering on Cooldown, just like we probably wouldn't be casting CL if the MS cost was higher. But this change would mean that this tier is generally a choice of AOE attacks (one with a stun), and you would generally only use them for AOE. So you pick your poison:

You pick crashing storm if you want a simple rotation where you just do CL and get the DoT on the ground. You would cast CL every 6 seconds, and it would cost 30 MS.
You could pick Fury of Air to have a constant damage AOE going off around you. The damage from FoA is the same as a talented CL, and you would be spending 5 MS per second, or 30 MS every 6 seconds (look how nicely things align up). You would also, however, cast CL, but only every 10 seconds to keep the debuff up so you can continue to cleave.

What this really means is that you talent CL if you want a simple AOE rotation that is easy on the MS, or you pick FoA for additional damage (since you are doing FOA + the occasional CL), but it also cost a bit more MS - so this is something you can spec into when your MS generation is higher.

Remember, the only reason why we are even casting CL on single target now is if CL is talented and only because it's so cheap for the damage it does, compared to Lava Lash. But this whole thread is about fixing Doom Vortex and AOE talents - and this change would also change it so Lava Lash is used quite a bit more frequently, giving us a slightly higher single target damage, while still doing fine on AOE (+10 MS cost on CLs) - with the potential to do even better when your MS can maintain FoA and a CL every 10 seconds.

[Deleted]

According to sims FOA is a single targe dps loss if you take Boulderfist and Tempest, our currently best options.

[Deleted]

Yeah, but you wouldn't use FOA (or Crash Lightning) on single target if this change was made, because doing a Lava Lash would do more damage per Maelstrom spent. Again, the whole point is to NOT use AOE abilities on pure single target fights, and to fix Lava Lash + Doom Vortex viability.

If this change was made, the sims wouldn't be running CL or FOA in a single target simulation

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Any ways, I've sort of written this suggestion up again, and posted it on the official forums: http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17613493775#1

[gunner007]

Main-hand SS alone is 30% for me,

Just had to quote this for future reference.

Maybe 30% if the fights are lasting 30 seconds. No raid in the past 3 weeks have I seen my SS rise above 28% and that's counting the off-hand attacks. Highest MH SS is maybe 17-18% on any mythic fight lasting 3 min plus.

[Nitwit]

Should crash lightning even apply hailstorm/flametongue to other targets?

It's a mainhand attack that deals % mainhand weapon damage so ... yes. Everything is working exactly as advertised and intended.

[Deleted]

Just had to quote this for future reference.

Maybe 30% if the fights are lasting 30 seconds. No raid in the past 3 weeks have I seen my SS rise above 28% and that's counting the off-hand attacks. Highest MH SS is maybe 17-18% on any mythic fight lasting 3 min plus.

Yeah, he was a funky one, but perhaps he pulled this number from his versetility master race build. Most likely, he just simmed what the main hand stormstrike would be with 70% versitility, which is probably correct, but unachievable :P At any rate, if this is the case, he would still be doing more overall damage with proper stats :P

In our last Ursoc (normal) kill, my stormstrike *total* was 30% of my damage - MH/OH was split 20/10% (which makes sense), but I would need a lot more versitility for my MH SS to reach 30% on it's own :P

Logs here, because I'm not the Professor :P https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=13.

It's a mainhand attack that deals % mainhand weapon damage so ... yes. Everything is working exactly as advertised and intended.

As advertised, yes, but I'm thinking more about the idea behind the proc - when we cast CL, we aren't actually slamming our hammer down, we are casting a spell. But on the flipside, boulderfist which should be an actual attack, is working as a spell and does not proc SB (apparently).