PvP Lost Some Meaning

[rda]

Lol exactly, there were huge stat differences in the old gear system, they were closer to 50% than 10% or 3%. Those were truly insurmountable advantages. 3% is just a completely irrelevant. Please tell someone with a brain that if you had 3% more stats you would be 400 MMR higher and watch them laugh in your face.

Got it, you are a noob.

Google terms "ilvl boost" and "ilvl cap". Then go to wowhead and measure the difference between gear pieces scaled to PVP scenarios directly.

The difference between full honor and full conquest was about 10%.

[Deleted]

Got it, you are a noob.

Google terms "ilvl boost" and "ilvl cap". Then go to wowhead and measure the difference between gear pieces scaled to PVP scenarios directly.

The difference between full honor and full conquest was about 10%.

Yeah you think you'd be 400 MMR higher if you had 3% more stats, but I'm the noob. You should stop looking for excuses and actually learn to play better if you want to get better rating.

[Caolela]

Anyone thinking a few percent power difference is "nothing" is smoking the Blizz wacky weed. I play twink brackets as well; one example is in 20-29 the standard ilvl is 25, but it's possible to get to 45 with certain gear which means +2% stats. Add to that cloth casters using wands which count as 2 items (3 with OH) and provide 5% extra stats over a staff - making most clothies OP. You'll then have a ~7% advantage over a non-wander with every heirloom and blue PvP gear drops at 25-28 ilvl.

As a warrior, rogue, Enh, or other melee you'll rarely beat an equally geared and played Disc, mage, warlock using wands unless he's a total idiot or you get lucky crits or CDs line up. Might as well run the other way. Only exception is SV hunter which is the current FotM OP melee spec. I know since I have 13 toons of all types (DPS melee or tank, caster, healer) in that bracket alone, not including other brackets.

A few percent power difference translates the same no matter what bracket including max level - it IS a noticeable advantage and depending on your comp and the comp you're versing it can be an enormous advantage.

Like so many other things today, you're paying about the same price but getting an increasingly cheapened, less well-produced, corporatized product. WoW should have the disclaimer: "Made in Bangladesh" or "Hecho en Mexico" on every copy.

Blizz put in the gear differences together with RNG for a reason, despite their transparent claims (read: lies) about "templates" and "gear doesn't matter". It is to cause even longer grinds and hence longer time in game, rather than spending the effort and money for new PvP content and a better PvP reward and/or gearing system that would have people wanting to play more.

Period. Full stop.

[Mafic]

They buffed already op assassination rogues in 7.1 while nerfing weak and already nerfed since pre-patch affliction to the ground. How can you say that Holinka's team is good at their job?

They don't know what they are doing at this point. Some classes are so pruned of utility they can only balance with damage (eg Assassination) which is dumb. Same dumb way where they gave Sub unlimited mobility but the damage outside of arenas is simply not there.

This is what happens when you make classes too cookie cutter in PVP as this isn't a MOBA where you can have other classes fill in weaknesses. I mean sure you can have an Assassination Rogue in a comp that provides CC by why bother? Just choose a comp that does more pew pew with the Assassination Rogue and mongloid targets using PVE rotations.

[Baracuda]

Don't forget these people that complain about gear difference don't realize that's 800 vs 900 is only 10%. The amount of players you will see around 900 ilvl are very slim and if you're a fresh level character and can't get to at least 825 ilvl in the first day then you don't deserve shit. You guys act like you ONLY pvp; if you play this game JUST for pvp then you're doing it way wrong. I am as far as you can get from a PvE raiding hero yet I am sitting at 855 ilvl; if anything I spend more time doing world quests and world pvping than anything. I have ZERO desire to arena or BG since i'm having so much fun in world pvp...been gladiator 5 times, got my arena master and RBG titles so I could give two fucks about being competitive anymore...I just want to destroy people in world pvp.

ZERO interest in joining a random BG queue.

Good luck with Ilvl 855 vs raiders with Ilvl 900 wep and 2 legendaries.

[Mafic]

The fact that you have to explain the bold part again and again to anyone playing WoW (or any other MMORPG) simply shows the level of blind following Blizzard has. It's pretty simple boys and girls, all MMOs run on their reward systems. Any and every modern MMO that gets that part wrong is at a massive disadvantage, which is why you see such reverse of trends and systems like what Blizzard is doing with the PvP rewards (and that's not enough, hence if they do want to keep PvP alive they will do more and soon enough).

Yeah I am skeptical that 7.1 reward changes for PVP is enough given how superior PVE rewards are. They made it clear they do not want participation in PVP to be as competitive as participating in PVE because of the shorter time investment required for PVP compared to PVE. But what they are missing is that since there is no longer PVP gear it means that they have no choice but to make participating in PVP as competitive to gear up as PVE participation.

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Good luck with Ilvl 855 vs raiders with Ilvl 900 wep and 2 legendaries.

Legendaries can be upgraded, but does that increase their item level?

[Kagthul]

Got it, you are a noob.

Google terms "ilvl boost" and "ilvl cap". Then go to wowhead and measure the difference between gear pieces scaled to PVP scenarios directly.

The difference between full honor and full conquest was about 10%.

9.2%, to be exact, and you could get the Honor gear in six hours or less without even PvPing.

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Yeah you think you'd be 400 MMR higher if you had 3% more stats, but I'm the noob. You should stop looking for excuses and actually learn to play better if you want to get better rating.

Completely ignoring how a pyramidal ladder system works. Even if 100% of the players on the ladder were skilled enough to be 2K players, only 17% of them CAN be 2K or higher because of math. "LOL JUST GIT GUD" is not a viable argument. There are thousands of people who are good enough to have higher rating who are stuck sub-1800 because of the math o the system.

Thats why e current system is complete garbage. WoDs gearing system wasnt broken - in fact, it was near-perfect. The ONLY issue that arose (people skipping HFC normal because of iLevel 700 PvP gear being easily available) wasnt the fault of the PvP gearing system - it was the fault of the dev team for only having two raid tiers. If there had been a third WoD tier (where Normal would have been 720-730), then iLevel 700 PvP gear would still have been sub-par, as intended.

Why they had to "fix" something that they had actually finally gotten right, indont know.

[Snegovik]

Yeah you think you'd be 400 MMR higher if you had 3% more stats, but I'm the noob. You should stop looking for excuses and actually learn to play better if you want to get better rating.

I think few ppl above talking about slightly different points, comparing apples with oranges. Yes 1% even 3% matter, and matter a lot, even 1% but only when skills of both teams on even ground. Here is where I can definitely understand where Vodakhun is coming from, higher ilvl does not guarantee youll climb the ladder at all, maybe 50-80 cr but not 300-400. Skill enables ppl to clime ladder not the gear. In WoD I remb seeing my two nub friends playing alts in honor gear as Hunter/Rdrood mid s1 @ 2150CR in 2s, at that point most ppl were in full conquest but these two nubs were in blues but cuz they ran strong comp/ knew what they were doing (guess not so much nubs after all :P ) they did not have issue pwning ppl who out geared them, hell we even clime 2250 in 3s on our alts in crap gear.

Hence, gear is very important; however, it does not come near as important as skill, this is what Vodakhun is trying to say, that having better gear does not mean you will win more games, it only means you will win games where skill level of both teams are very close. However if you put multi R1 players in blues/greens they will win vs casuals in max ilvl gear, no doubts here.

[Cempa]

Kind of surprised some still think 10% in Legion is far less of a gap than 10% was during WoD ..

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" ...I use that quote because the name Acti-Blizz uses is meaningless .. They call it PvP templates but then add Artifact Talents and PvP talents which combined interact with stats in a way that brings back the very same 10% gap ...

What changed?

Well the customer experience changed and for my self to the worse. I look forward to that 'WoW' moment during 'progression' as well as enjoying my rewards for many hours to come until the next tier of content is released .. That has changed today because I am forced to cross content and even then the amount of wait is so long 'WoW' moment loses meaning .. Not all meaning obviously just a diminished gaming experience.

[wing5wong]

Anyone thinking a few percent power difference is "nothing" is smoking the Blizz wacky weed. I play twink brackets as well; one example is in 20-29 the standard ilvl is 25, but it's possible to get to 45 with certain gear which means +2% stats. Add to that cloth casters using wands which count as 2 items (3 with OH) and provide 5% extra stats over a staff - making most clothies OP. You'll then have a ~7% advantage over a non-wander with every heirloom and blue PvP gear drops at 25-28 ilvl.

Are we actually discussing a 2% stat difference in the 20-29 brackets as if it is anywhere remotely similar to endgame pvp.
Oh boy....

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Blizz put in the gear differences together with RNG for a reason, despite their transparent claims (read: lies) about "templates" and "gear doesn't matter". It is to cause even longer grinds and hence longer time in game, rather than spending the effort and money for new PvP content and a better PvP reward and/or gearing system that would have people wanting to play more.

Period. Full stop.

Gear doesnt matter in terms of template stats. I dont think anyone has ever said gear (ilvl) isnt important - its always been a contributing factor.
PvP wasnt designed for you to step in and out at a whim, and remain at a competitive gear level. part of the system is the grind

[Mafic]

From Swifty's own mouth:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpsfpfaxToQ&t=0m24s

[rda]

Yeah you think you'd be 400 MMR higher if you had 3% more stats, but I'm the noob. You should stop looking for excuses and actually learn to play better if you want to get better rating.

Since you can't Google and can't wowhead and can't math and can only keep talking some nonsense point which in your opinion sounds like a counter, here's the comparison with actual numbers for you:

http://www.wowhead.com/item=125825/w...ate-chestpiece

Warmongering Gladiator's Dreadplate Chestpiece
Warlords Season 3
Item Level 740 (740 PvP)
Binds when picked up
Chest Plate
436 Armor
+465 Strength
+698 Stamina
+310 Critical Strike (0.89% @ L110)
+310 Haste (0.95% @ L110)

http://www.wowhead.com/item=126027/w...ate-chestpiece

Warmongering Combatant's Dreadplate Chestpiece
Warlords Season 3
Item Level 730 (730 PvP)
Binds when picked up
Chest Plate
423 Armor
+424 Strength
+636 Stamina
+283 Critical Strike (0.81% @ L110)
+283 Haste (0.87% @ L110)

465 str vs 424 str. 465/424 = 1.097. The conquest item has about 10% more stats than the honor item.

Step 2: Full conquest has about 10% more stats than full honor. (Try to math it out.)

Step 3: 2800 gladiators doing their conquest catch-up easily lose (or win) to people at 1800 who have more than half conquest. 2800-1800=1000 rating. And they are losing because they have at most 10% less gear (in reality, the difference is less because they have a couple of conquest pieces and they still lose easily).

The end.

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Here is where I can definitely understand where Vodakhun is coming from, higher ilvl does not guarantee youll climb the ladder at all, maybe 50-80 cr but not 300-400.

No. There's no magic cutoff of 50-80 CR after which gear differences stop working. In one game, anything can happen, but if you play tens and hundreds of games, the differences will even out and the contribution from gear is about 100 MMR for each 1% power. It's just math. I suppose it seems strange to some that a 1% difference translates to "the whole" 100 MMR, but this happens solely because of the subjective notion that 1% is "not a lot" and 100 MMR is "a lot". If you divide MMR by 1000 and have MMR of 3 be a glad and an MMR of 1.5 be a noob, then 100 MMR becomes 0.1 MMR and after a week or two I guarantee you it will stop seeming large, and 1% power translating to 0.1 rating would seem completely normal.

[Deleted]

The point isn't that you don't need the gear for PvP. The point is that you don't the need the gear, period. PvP is a game system without significant reward. In particular, it no longer assists in gearing for the rest of the game. And surprise surprise, when the carrots go missing so do the players.

Thats because the game is much less fun than people believe, good games do not need carrots to make people have fun.

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I think few ppl above talking about slightly different points, comparing apples with oranges. Yes 1% even 3% matter, and matter a lot, even 1% but only when skills of both teams on even ground. Here is where I can definitely understand where Vodakhun is coming from, higher ilvl does not guarantee youll climb the ladder at all, maybe 50-80 cr but not 300-400. Skill enables ppl to clime ladder not the gear. In WoD I remb seeing my two nub friends playing alts in honor gear as Hunter/Rdrood mid s1 @ 2150CR in 2s, at that point most ppl were in full conquest but these two nubs were in blues but cuz they ran strong comp/ knew what they were doing (guess not so much nubs after all :P ) they did not have issue pwning ppl who out geared them, hell we even clime 2250 in 3s on our alts in crap gear.

Hence, gear is very important; however, it does not come near as important as skill, this is what Vodakhun is trying to say, that having better gear does not mean you will win more games, it only means you will win games where skill level of both teams are very close. However if you put multi R1 players in blues/greens they will win vs casuals in max ilvl gear, no doubts here.

Yeah but this is not sims or AI vs AI combat, its impossible to determine a fight with "equal skill" since so many things affect the outcome of the fight that are not skill related: lucky procs, number of crits, small lag, the team composition, etc..

To the guy making his twisted biased math to determine MMR climbing: just LOL dude, it doesn't work like that. You neglect so many variables in your little smart ass calculation

[rda]

To the guy making his twisted biased math to determine MMR climbing: just LOL dude, it doesn't work like that. You neglect so many variables in your little smart ass calculation

These variables you are talking about average out into zero.

What, you suggest that when glads gear themselves up, they tend to choose a bad setup which skews their winrate? Or that when they gear themselves up, they usually get unlucky in that the teams they meet are all their counters? Nah. Factors like luck average out. The only factor that remains is gear and, if you want, you can write off some of the losses into learning, but I am not sure as to how much learning is there for multi-R1s. You can halve the final number if that would make you feel better, the point of the math is not the exact number, it's that the gear difference of 10% is significant in terms of MMR - because glads without gear play some thousand MMR worse than the same glads with gear. If your gut feel or whatever is that 1% power is 50 MMR instead of 100 MMR, by all means.

[Deleted]

Pvp is pretty good imo, better than wod for sure.

[Osmeric]

Pvp is pretty good imo, better than wod for sure.

And yet, participation metrics have gone into the crapper compared to WoD. So if PvP is better it's not translating into player engagement.

[Madus]

Thats because the game is much less fun than people believe, good games do not need carrots to make people have fun.

RPGs are always about carrots because you have to create enviroment where your character can grow in power.
But you are right that game itself is less fun, because most utility and mechanics of classes have been pruned.
Now when you dont have carrot nor fun gameplay pvp is dead. #ThxHolinka

[Snegovik]

-snip-

Hey, just trying to keep peace here lol.

Yeh i know its hard to determine skills, a lot of times luck or rather bad luck comes into picture (yest arena had few bugs: WW's fof lagging the f out of every1 lol, zoning in arena in a different zone, not seeing your party member sand not able to use ur macros on them) in cases like this ur chances of losing go up by a lot, but it also will be kinda irrelevant if you have extra 2% stats in your gear or not =) you know? Not saying i agree with everything he said (about MMR climbing), i simply stated that good players will climb the top =) regardless if they have 3% ilvls lower gear than their opponents of lower skill, that was my point =).

[Mafic]

Pvp is pretty good imo, better than wod for sure.

Given how pruned the classes are that is a definite no.

[Caolela]

Are we actually discussing a 2% stat difference in the 20-29 brackets as if it is anywhere remotely similar to endgame pvp.
Oh boy....

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Gear doesnt matter in terms of template stats. I dont think anyone has ever said gear (ilvl) isnt important - its always been a contributing factor.
PvP wasnt designed for you to step in and out at a whim, and remain at a competitive gear level. part of the system is the grind

It is actually quite similar. You do understand the concept of percentage - that 'X'% (but in the case I gave of 20-29 wanders it's ~7%) as a ratio is the same at low or high level? +2%-7% of 5k HP is the same ratio as +2%-7% of 500k HP, or SP/AP. That doesn't count AP weps and traits at the higher levels.

A reasonable grind to gear up for PvP is one thing. Total RNG and AP wep grinding for months while getting endless dupes and feast or famine legendary drops is quite another, also making alt grinds miserable. That may be OK for raiding, but it's not what most WoW PvPers want.