Enhancement shaman question.

[Gromthak]

I was trying to show how haste can be slightly overvalued in sims. When they give haste a certain weighted dps score it is based on several factors. For example... lets say haste reduces your CD's like SS and Ascendance. In a sim, it will use those cds asap and take full advantage of those reduced cd's. So in a 10 min fight, lets say with enough haste you can squeeze in an extra ascendance and like 5 extra SS's. That is obviously alot of extra damage and will result in haste having a high weighted value. But in an actual raid you have to delay your ascendance some for a certain mechanic or to burst down some adds (so you don't end up with an extra ascendance at the end), and you have to switch targets a few times which delays your SS by a few sec so it may have been available at 14sec instead of 16sec but you couldn't use it at 14 sec so that 2 sec reduction from haste was not taken advantage of (and at the end, you get 2 extra SS not 5). By not taking advantage of those reduced cd's right away, the contribution of haste to your dps isn't as high as it could be... so its weighted value can be misleading. The same logic can be used on SB procs... sometimes you get a SB proc but you can't use SS right away, either you have to refresh your buffs or throw out some heals or spam purge or you just made a player error and didn't use it right away. This is all stuff that a sim won't do, it doesn't make mistakes or do stuff like utility, so SB procs are highly valued because it can always take advantage of extra SS's.... but if you don't take advantage of SB procs right away, even just a few gcds, then that value from haste (or even mastery really) is wasted.

You literally took the two worst examples to argue your point. Ascendance isn't affected by haste and haste purely for stormstrike cd is actually devalued by SB procs. I guess ascendance cd is hypothetically reduced by haste in your argument but aren't we trying to give advise about actual gameplay here? I sorta get the point your trying to make about your hypothetical ascendance, but it's something that would never actually be a real thing. You're also forgetting that haste also shortens the GCD. Meaning that you can pump out more abilities in a shorter window. So you could potentionally pump out more SB stormstrikes in a shorter window for more dps. And regarding crit. Crit is nothing more than a flat damage boost, I oversimplify but that's basically what it is. It might look like it helps you burst but it averages out. You need to look at the big picture. It's just a flashy mechanic to make combat seem more exciting.

And then you make another comment about what sims supposedly don't do, refresh imbues before using your SB proc. Which they totally do (or did depending on personal preference). Your argument about how sims don't account for offheals and w/e is totally true though, but how does this affect stat values exactly? I get the feeling you misinterpret stat weights somewhat given your examples and arguments. They are the average worth calculated over literally tens of thousands of iterations. You can choose what kind of fight to calculate them for and even your skill level and latency. They aren't just for single target patchwerk fights. And the reality is that that our secondary stat weights are ranked pretty much the same across encounter types. You could of course argue that sims aren't accurate and real world tests are of course better. No argument there, but ain't nobody got time for that shit. I implore you to fiddle around a bit more, and perhaps get over that crit fetish.

[AshaGreyjoy]

There is no haste cap; you want to prioritize mastery > haste > vers > crit

[Ghrog]

who the fuck even plays ascendance in raids?

Bads,


or people that don't care about maximizing their dps.


...but sometimes I repeat myself.

[Gunwolf]

You literally took the two worst examples to argue your point. Ascendance isn't affected by haste and haste purely for stormstrike cd is actually devalued by SB procs. I guess ascendance cd is hypothetically reduced by haste in your argument but aren't we trying to give advise about actual gameplay here? I sorta get the point your trying to make about your hypothetical ascendance, but it's something that would never actually be a real thing. You're also forgetting that haste also shortens the GCD. Meaning that you can pump out more abilities in a shorter window. So you could potentionally pump out more SB stormstrikes in a shorter window for more dps. And regarding crit. Crit is nothing more than a flat damage boost, I oversimplify but that's basically what it is. It might look like it helps you burst but it averages out. You need to look at the big picture. It's just a flashy mechanic to make combat seem more exciting.

And then you make another comment about what sims supposedly don't do, refresh imbues before using your SB proc. Which they totally do (or did depending on personal preference). Your argument about how sims don't account for offheals and w/e is totally true though, but how does this affect stat values exactly? I get the feeling you misinterpret stat weights somewhat given your examples and arguments. They are the average worth calculated over literally tens of thousands of iterations. You can choose what kind of fight to calculate them for and even your skill level and latency. They aren't just for single target patchwerk fights. And the reality is that that our secondary stat weights are ranked pretty much the same across encounter types. You could of course argue that sims aren't accurate and real world tests are of course better. No argument there, but ain't nobody got time for that shit. I implore you to fiddle around a bit more, and perhaps get over that crit fetish.

It was a hypothetical example.... I was just trying to show how certain aspects of haste which factor into its dps score like reducing cds is not always taken advantage of which makes haste less effective in reality compared to how it appears in a sim (where you don't have to move or target switch or save cds). I dunno if I would say that it will never be an actual thing tho.... we have had it in the past. For example, Elem had a chance to reduce the cd of Fire Elem when casting LB. So if you had enough haste to get a bunch of extra LB's over a 10 min fight then maybe you could use fire elem one more time during the boss fight. That would be easy enough in a sim where you don't move so can just spam LB.... but in an actual fight with mechanics, you wouldn't be able to take full advantage so the number of LB casts would be less then the expected amount, and you might not be able to lower Fire Elem cd enough to squeeze in that extra CD. All the haste you stacked would still be useful and increase ur DPS, but just not as high as the calculated amount.

Anyways, it seems like you still understood my point so I prob didn't have to explain further lol. And yea, crit is just more damage. Not much synergy with our other abilities, no resource generation like haste does... which is a shame. Then again, vers is also just more flat damage and even mastery is somewhat.... tho it has the awesome addition of more wf/sb proc this time. I wouldn't outright dismiss crit tho... its not just more damage, but double damage. A good mix of more base damage from stuff like mastery/vers plus crit so it feels more steady can really amplify your damage. I know it seems like I have a crit fetish lol, but that isn't really true... I love my mastery and haste even more but I don't dismiss crit as being useless. That is just me tho.

As for what the sims can and can't do... maybe my wording was confusing. The sims are perfect, they follow ur priority that you set exactly. But actual players don't, they make mistakes or raid mechanics prevent them from doing their exact rotation properly. How does that effect the stat values? For haste atleast its value is based on several factors, stuff like high uptime and proper rotation so u can take full advantage of a lower CD on SS or BF or FT or whatever.... squeezing out a few extra uses of that ability is what makes haste more valued. In reality tho, you may not get as many extra abilities as the sim calculated you would.... so while haste will still help alot, and u still get more abilities, its less then the theoretical amount and so that dps stat value for haste is actually less then it says it is.

Real numbers are better then sim numbers obviously, but like you I don't really have the time to test all this shit out hundreds of times to get a good idea of what works and what doesn't. That is why sims work.... they are a good baseline and work for the most part. They are not definitive proof tho. So while my statement about crit isn't really backed up by much real life data or supported by the sim, it shouldn't be ruled out as wrong... just not what the sim suggests. Until someone will take the time to test it out in game, we can't know for sure. I see alot of people act like sims are fact, despite its limitations or that it is coded by humans who can make mistakes. I respect and value sims for being a very useful baseline tool, but I like to stay openminded and experiment as well. Again... just my opinion, and I still think mastery/haste are more important in the long run.

Thanks for the discussion and being mature about it.

[Kidies]

Can you guys tell me what sims to use for enhance shaman? I've never used sims before so I'm a bit lost while searching.

[D3bacl3]

Can you guys tell me what sims to use for enhance shaman? I've never used sims before so I'm a bit lost while searching.

Download and use simulationcraft.org for your live builds. If you want to get into PTR testing, it would take some editing or math skills to adjust numbers.

[Ghrog]

Can you guys tell me what sims to use for enhance shaman? I've never used sims before so I'm a bit lost while searching.

Like D3bacl3 said. Simulationcraft is a good one. There are others, but I haven't used them.

Also, you might want to get the simc addon for the game as well to make life a bit easier. There's a video on youtube showing how to use the two together to quickly and easily simulate your character with a variety of gear and obtain stat weights for your character.

[Kidies]

So yesterday I was doing M Cenarius for the first time, and my ranking was terrible: http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...&view=rankings
Minus the fact that my trinket didn’t proc at all during lust time (beginning of the fight) and I died at the end of the fight, this result is still unacceptable, so I did some log checking with the top enhance shaman at my ilvl (875-877): http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...-done&source=6. I noticed a few difference between the 2 logs:
- On average his skills dealt more damage than mine (~2%), possibly due to weapon ilvl
- His Unleased dooms did insane amount of damage (11.45m compared to my 4.15)
- His Stormbringer uptime was also off the chart (54% compared to 38%)
- He has Spontaneous Appandages and I do not
Everything else seems pretty even, yet the difference in dps is too large (about 130k). So my question is this: Does Spontaneous Appandages really increase the proc rate of Stormbringer that much, or he was just getting lucky on that particular fight?
Here’s my armory for reference: us.battle.net/wow/en/character/jubeithos/Narga/advanced
My weapon was ilvl 888 when I was doing Cenarius.

[Deleted]

There is a reason why every Enhancement Shaman is using Spontaneous Appandages. Even a LFR-Version outperferforms most of the other Trinkets. Check other Threads for a Trinket-list. I'm too lazy :P
Apart from that everything is looking fine. Buff-uptime is good. Spell-usage good. Get your Appendages and you are good 2 go, Mate

[Kidies]

I know SA is the best trinket available, but it's unthinkable that a single trinket is responsible for 130k dps difference, hence I want you guys to look at it
Also a while back I read rumors about stealthing nerf SA, making it proc less than before. Is that info true?

[kosajk]

I know SA is the best trinket available, but it's unthinkable that a single trinket is responsible for 130k dps difference, hence I want you guys to look at it
Also a while back I read rumors about stealthing nerf SA, making it proc less than before. Is that info true?

it was been working strange for day or 2 but it sems like its doing its job again, hard to say what was been a reason of that

[D3bacl3]

The difference is he had 17 more SB procs than you did which gave him 26 more SS. That alone is 39k dps over the fight duration. Also, as you can see his unleashed doom proc'd a lot because of those extra SS which was a total of 112 more hits which is another 26k dps. Part of that could be that he never missed a global while the buffs were active, or just that he had all of those extra procs.

Looking at the log, you hit the boss the same number of times(222 to 213), but he has 112 more procs of hailstorm, and 81 of flametongue which means aside from the 26 SS... 84 extra hits from windfury.

So the real answer he beat you, SB procs and windfury. SA has a chance to proc it, but my guess is his racial (+haste) plus stats and a good chain just unloaded on him.

[hatchetman240]

I would say try to get atleast 25% crit and 20% haste, and then max out your mastery as much as you can get without your crit/haste falling below those levels.

Oh wow, I wondered how people could manage to screw up enhancement shaman, and wasting gear trying to reach 25% crit would explain it.

[Rahkhun]

"Play wrong" huh... and who are you to decide what the right and wrong way to play is?

I don't think I argued with any of the facts... I agree with the stat priority and mastery being the best. I see nothing wrong with the suggestion of not letting your crit or haste fall too low, esp when it shouldn't be too hard to do that with higher ilvl gear. If I suggested to stack crit instead of mastery then sure, that is clearly just bad advice... but I didn't say that, plus I clarified that those were my personal choices.

Also, where is the source of these "tested and proven actual facts"? I assume you mean the sims, and as I just explained sims are a good guideline but not 100% accurate. The sims still have limitations, they don't sim an actual dungeon or raid environment just something close to it, and they are programmed by people who can also make mistakes in coding. In game testing is the only real way to prove anything.... and I would be surprised if anyone has actually bothered to check the difference between different levels of secondary stats (tho I would be pretty interested to see it). People just use the sims since its easier and a good baseline. Looking at combat logs is another good source, which I have done but most of those top players have high ilvl, with lots mastery/haste gear and the occasional mastery/crit and so already have enough haste/crit that you can't really compare how they would have performed if they had less haste/crit.

If your not a troll the "tested and proven" parts are all over logs. people following simc's advice are doing more dps then people who are not.

[Deleted]

Is it possible for any of You to help me sim something? You can import my char - it is Pombar from Burning Legion (EU). I am curious if Cursed Beartooth Necklace (880 ilvl version with socket, so put best gem in) can be better for me strictly in dps than Prydaz? Unfortunately I can't post any links.

[goodbyeperson]

Yah just mastery>haste after haste is ~17

[Phaty]

I know SA is the best trinket available, but it's unthinkable that a single trinket is responsible for 130k dps difference, hence I want you guys to look at it
Also a while back I read rumors about stealthing nerf SA, making it proc less than before. Is that info true?

its because SA spams SB procs. when SB procs you get 25% more dmg on your next SS and you get the attack speed proc constantly. it adds up over time

[Creekz]

Yah just mastery>haste after haste is ~17

the 17% haste checkpoint is old and outdated info. It no longer applies.

[Imnick]

It's not even old and outdated, it was literally never true. It's a meme number that someone made up.