Regardless of damage, do you find survival fun?

[Raugnaut]

Well flanking strike was really supposed to be the answer to this. If blizz wanted to use their own mechanics all theyd have to do is make it so the pet gets like 5000% extra threat if you have aggro instead of just whatever it is now.

Blizzard does not like big numbers for WoW mechanics as an answer, and Flanking Strike does shit for AoE threat. Take a look at Warlocks Voidwalker - They have 900% increased threat generation, their damage is a spammable AoE (FAR stronger then Thunderstomp in terms of AoE threat generation, leaves it in the dust), 20% baseline avoidance (Although Hunters do have 15% damage reduction which is better for magic damage), Shadow Shield (60% physical reduction on a 10 second CD), Last Stand on a 2 minute CD (Instead of the fucked up 6 minute CD hunters got)... You get the picture? This is all on TOP of the ludicrous amount of self-healing Warlocks have.

The only thing that Hunter has that Warlocks don't in terms of soloing is that a hunter pet recieves much more healing with a smaller dps loss.

- - - Updated - - -

I do have to say, Survivals rotation is really choked in terms of Energy generation (Because lets face it, its orange energy now). We get 10 energy per second, and have to make sure we can spend 50 of it every 5.5 seconds, allowing for only 5 extra energy/5.5 seconds, or ~.9 eps for other abilities. Haste doesn't do shit here. Now, we need to keep up Lacerate, so that there is 35 energy every 12 seconds, or costs us 2.91 energy/second. Now, JUST to keep up the baseline rotation, we actually lose 2 energy/second. As you can see, to put ANY other ability in there that costs focus requires Survival to NOT use Flanking Strikes, AND with how blizzard tunes our abilities, thats exactly what we do.

Because of this complete and total fuckup on behalf of the pot-smoking class development team over at Blizz, Survival is actively ENCOURAGED not to use Flanking Strikes. If you picked up Butchery, Murder of Crows, or Way of the Mok'Nathal (Especially there) you may as well completely remove Flanking Strike from your bars. Your pet is more or less a moving DoT that gives you charges of Bite. Completely defeats the !##$ing supposed fantasy of Survival in terms of it being a melee fighter who fights alongside your pet.

Flanking Strike needs its energy cost removed, period. We have NO form of energy regeneration outside of a shitty, underpreforming talent. Helps to both add complexity/damage to the MADDEN rotation, and buffs the simplified rotation.

In terms of playstyle, well, it reminds me of early MoP Arms warrior - Build up stacks with Overpower, release an absolutely devastating Heroic Strike that was truly heroic. Pretty similar to that really. I like it.

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Mongoose is the only thing that's bothering me, 6 stacks with such a short duration is too much and I'm not sure if anyone can even consider that truely fun to play. What's the point, gameplay wise, to make it 6 stacks? Why not 3? It's just as "deep" but less frustrating.

Butchery/Traps/Grenade/Axes/Harpoon and all the other stuff is cool as it is imho.

Raptor Strike could use some love though. Can't find the GCDs for it right now, but that would be much less of a problem if I didn't have to spam the fuck out of MB.

Because of early MoP arms really. They had a similar situation in which Overpower gave Heroic Strike a stacking damage buff, up to 5x, which could then be used for absolutely massive damage. We have a similar thing here with Mongoosex6->Eagle, with the exception that Eagle can be interupted in PvP, and you have a 14 second window to use it, unlike the Arms version which had a 30 second refreshable duration.

Thus, it needs high stacks, limited window, and counterability to be "balanced"

[Hiricine]

Blizzard does not like big numbers for WoW mechanics as an answer, and Flanking Strike does shit for AoE threat. Take a look at Warlocks Voidwalker - They have 900% increased threat generation, their damage is a spammable AoE (FAR stronger then Thunderstomp in terms of AoE threat generation, leaves it in the dust), 20% baseline avoidance (Although Hunters do have 15% damage reduction which is better for magic damage), Shadow Shield (60% physical reduction on a 10 second CD), Last Stand on a 2 minute CD (Instead of the fucked up 6 minute CD hunters got)... You get the picture? This is all on TOP of the ludicrous amount of self-healing Warlocks have.

The only thing that Hunter has that Warlocks don't in terms of soloing is that a hunter pet recieves much more healing with a smaller dps loss.

- - - Updated - - -

I do have to say, Survivals rotation is really choked in terms of Energy generation (Because lets face it, its orange energy now). We get 10 energy per second, and have to make sure we can spend 50 of it every 5.5 seconds, allowing for only 5 extra energy/5.5 seconds, or ~.9 eps for other abilities. Haste doesn't do shit here. Now, we need to keep up Lacerate, so that there is 35 energy every 12 seconds, or costs us 2.91 energy/second. Now, JUST to keep up the baseline rotation, we actually lose 2 energy/second. As you can see, to put ANY other ability in there that costs focus requires Survival to NOT use Flanking Strikes, AND with how blizzard tunes our abilities, thats exactly what we do.

Because of this complete and total fuckup on behalf of the pot-smoking class development team over at Blizz, Survival is actively ENCOURAGED not to use Flanking Strikes. If you picked up Butchery, Murder of Crows, or Way of the Mok'Nathal (Especially there) you may as well completely remove Flanking Strike from your bars. Your pet is more or less a moving DoT that gives you charges of Bite. Completely defeats the !##$ing supposed fantasy of Survival in terms of it being a melee fighter who fights alongside your pet.

Flanking Strike needs its energy cost removed, period. We have NO form of energy regeneration outside of a shitty, underpreforming talent. Helps to both add complexity/damage to the MADDEN rotation, and buffs the simplified rotation.

The focus gen is fine, if you don't have enough focus to use the abilities they just need to buff the damage to a point where its more about prioritizing the ability they want you to. Having empty gcds is actually fun, you can use gcds on tar trap or the like.

Well really, they should merge explosive trap, lacerate, and dragonsfire grenade. You should be more focused on managing focus between raptor strike and flanking strike (which needs to hit much harder) and buff the damage of mongoose bite so its the highest priority ability in rotation.

[Deleted]

Because of early MoP arms really. They had a similar situation in which Overpower gave Heroic Strike a stacking damage buff, up to 5x, which could then be used for absolutely massive damage. We have a similar thing here with Mongoosex6->Eagle, with the exception that Eagle can be interupted in PvP, and you have a 14 second window to use it, unlike the Arms version which had a 30 second refreshable duration.
Thus, it needs high stacks, limited window, and counterability to be "balanced"

or... they could adjust the %damage gain, or the %weapondamage of MB, or the CD, or the amount of resets, or 1000 other things to balance it out that doesn't involve that kind of "bullshit" (if I might be so free to call it that)

[Aggrophobic]

It's ok I guess but it's melee so no thanks.

[Deleted]

No, nada, never, nope. All other words that can convey the word "no".
How is it fun, when you are a melee and still need to juggle 7 to 8 buttons in order to dps while monitor your buff and enemy's debuff.

That just my take.

And that is precisely why it's fun, it's one of the few non braindead specs to play.

Recently got back into both ESO and FFXIV, and while they have their flaws (still prefer WoW overall) they do have stuff like short combat buffs and debuffs, combos that benefit each other when performed in the right order etc....

WoW is currently 30ish cases of how Arcane mage used to be, with about 6-8 specs that actually have some depth to them.

When a game with action based combat like ESO manages to have more rotational depth than a hotkey mmo, then you've gone to far imo :P

So Survival gets an OK from me, still prefered it as ranged, but times change.

[DeicideUH]

I do have to say, Survivals rotation is really choked in terms of Energy generation (Because lets face it, its orange energy now). We get 10 energy per second, and have to make sure we can spend 50 of it every 5.5 seconds, allowing for only 5 extra energy/5.5 seconds, or ~.9 eps for other abilities. Haste doesn't do shit here. Now, we need to keep up Lacerate, so that there is 35 energy every 12 seconds, or costs us 2.91 energy/second. Now, JUST to keep up the baseline rotation, we actually lose 2 energy/second. As you can see, to put ANY other ability in there that costs focus requires Survival to NOT use Flanking Strikes, AND with how blizzard tunes our abilities, thats exactly what we do.

Because of this complete and total fuckup on behalf of the pot-smoking class development team over at Blizz, Survival is actively ENCOURAGED not to use Flanking Strikes. If you picked up Butchery, Murder of Crows, or Way of the Mok'Nathal (Especially there) you may as well completely remove Flanking Strike from your bars. Your pet is more or less a moving DoT that gives you charges of Bite. Completely defeats the !##$ing supposed fantasy of Survival in terms of it being a melee fighter who fights alongside your pet.

Flanking Strike needs its energy cost removed, period. We have NO form of energy regeneration outside of a shitty, underpreforming talent. Helps to both add complexity/damage to the MADDEN rotation, and buffs the simplified rotation.

I've been using Animal Instincts, Serpent Sting and Aspect of the Beast. I know this is far from optimal, but Flanking Strikes becomes really important with that combo, and the rotation becomes a lot simpler.

But I'd like to see Blizzard doing the following:
- Reduce Raptor Strike focus cost to 15.
- Throwing Axes now replaces Raptor Strike and inherits its special properties (can apply Serpent Sting; heals the Hunter with Bird of Prey and so on).
- Mortal Wounds talent: now also makes Mongoose Bite and Fury of the Eagle extend Lacerate's duration by 2 seconds every time it his the target.

[Flurryfang]

It should be the strongest single target spec in the game

Would kind of have to agree here. I think that it should be the ST spec of hunters, since your spec is really all about focusing on 1 single target and then just carve into them

On topic: I really like the spec. Its core is very enjoyable and having a real ramp-up ability is actually quite nice. The spec is far from perfect though. As many others have said before, traps are not really enjoyable to have in your core ST rotation. I would also really like to see the moongoose rotation be more then just spamming mongoose bite, maybe having other abilities be woven into it to increase its dmg in some way

But all in all, the current spec is a great foundation for the making of great spec The only thing i wished, that they had done, was to add "survival" as a 4th hunter spec and let the old survival stand. I think the elemental ranged hunter could have stayed as a spec, even with the new arrival of melee hunter

[Dahkeus]

I disagree with this one. I think it's easier to quest as Survival than MM by far. With Survival I can solo most quests and mobs, including those elite areas in Suramar.
Yes, lack of Misdirection hurts a bit, but I usually am able to keep aggro off me by alternating the targets of my Flanking Strikes.

I have no idea what you could be doing on MM to be doing worse than SV with questing. Even if you could handle every single mob you pull to you as SV without a misdirect, you just simply can't pull as many mobs at once the same way MM can due to it's range and massive cleave area.

Also, I saw someone mention BM and after leveling/questing extensively with both, I still found MM better. A BM pet doesn't really survive much better and a MM spec hunter can still pull more mobs more efficiently.

Pets really don't even have to be great at surviving damage either. They just have to survive for at least a short while for you to burst down mobs and even if they do die, you just rez the pet and feign aggro to them. =P

[Raugnaut]

The focus gen is fine, if you don't have enough focus to use the abilities they just need to buff the damage to a point where its more about prioritizing the ability they want you to. Having empty gcds is actually fun, you can use gcds on tar trap or the like.

Well really, they should merge explosive trap, lacerate, and dragonsfire grenade. You should be more focused on managing focus between raptor strike and flanking strike (which needs to hit much harder) and buff the damage of mongoose bite so its the highest priority ability in rotation.

Again, the energy generation rate of Survival means that you can NOT use Flanking Strikes whatsoever if you add even 1 extra ability to the rotation - You are unable to use both Flanking Strikes on CD AND keep 100% uptime on Lacerate as it is. With the simplified rotation (Flanking Strikes on CD as much as possible, 100% uptime on Lacerate), you use 1 ability every 12 seconds, and 1 ability every ~5.5 seconds. That is ALL you can do, period - Not enough energy for more then that. This means that roughly every 3.3 GCDs are completely empty.

Now, we have a good number of abilities to fill in this gap - Mongoose Bite (About 1 every 3 GCDs on average), Explosive Trap (1 every 20 GCDs, or 10 GCDs if talented. Essentally +.1 or .05 to GCD), and Dragonsfire Grenade (1 every 20 GCDs). (I'm not counting Steel Trap/Snake Hunter/Eagle given that it takes up 1 GCD out of 40 each, or 1/30 for Eagle, which is insignificant).

You will STILL have roughly every 2 GCDs completely empty, if not more. ANY extra abilities means you can't use as many Flanking Strikes, OR you lose less then 100% uptime on Lacerate. Given that Lacerate has higher DPE then Flanking Strikes, its Flanking Strikes you start to remove from the rotation. If you picked up Mok'Nathal, you may as well completely remove Flanking Strikes from the rotation, as Raptor Strikes is already pretty close in DPE efficiency to Flanking Strikes, Mok'Nathal pushes it a bit over, even if its just for maintenence.

Oh, btw, Survival is not a DoT spec - Feral is a DoT spec. Affliction/Balance is a DoT spec - They have to manually decide when to reapply their DoTs. Survival is a CD/Energy based spec - We use abilities as they come off CD or when we have the energy for them, and given that ALL of our DoTs are on a CD, we basically just use CDs whose damage comes in form of a DoT. Survival's complexity comes down to its pitiful energy generation and the management of Mongoose (Also a CD resource), NOT when to use your 3-4 CDs with 30 second+ CD.

[Deleted]

I have no idea what you could be doing on MM to be doing worse than SV with questing. Even if you could handle every single mob you pull to you as SV without a misdirect, you just simply can't pull as many mobs at once the same way MM can due to it's range and massive cleave area.

Also, I saw someone mention BM and after leveling/questing extensively with both, I still found MM better. A BM pet doesn't really survive much better and a MM spec hunter can still pull more mobs more efficiently.

Pets really don't even have to be great at surviving damage either. They just have to survive for at least a short while for you to burst down mobs and even if they do die, you just rez the pet and feign aggro to them. =P

As BM you simply never stop pulling. You don't even bother looking at your pet or using dps abilities. you just run around looking for red text and multishot it as your full time job. Gotta feed that adorable monster

But yeah the generic solo content is far too easy for hunters in general. You can go with pretty much any spec, any build, any ilvl and be as efficient as you could possibly want (and have a ton of fun too!). Things start getting interesting and you start seeing pros and cons for each spec when you take on 5-men by yourself.

[satimy]

Ill be honest, i havnt done the artifact quest

[Deleted]

I find it to be a very fun and engaging spec for the most part. There is a few abilities which lack synergy which is oddly enough fixed by having a certain legendary ring. Very puzzling to me.

It seems a lot of people in this thread dislike the amount of abilities available, but I think that's the part that somewhat gets me. I love that I have such an array of abilities to use for different situations. Need an interrupt? Muzzle. Need to kite an enemy or more? Tar Trap or Ranger's Net. Need a proper CC? Frost Trap.

Defensive? Turtles up baby. Gotta get out of the fire? Cheetah outta here.

The only aspect I sort of dislike is how Dragonsfire Grenade & Explosive Trap works in the rotation. They feel out of place in an otherwise fine rotation. I dislike Way of the Mok'Nathal, not because I can't make the best of it. It's not a very difficult buff to keep up, but it can throw you off when you have to balance between your Mongoose Strike stacks and Mok'Nathal. Makes the rotation a bit clunky I feel instead of enhancing it, but I guess that's the price for 12% AP.

Overall I find myself enjoying the spec a lot. It has the opposite problem of my Warlock. It can't pull the numbers, but it's a enjoyable spec to play, whereas my Warlock is super dull and annoying but has great damage.

[Grumpy Old Man]

Tried it a bit, feels fun to play but the rotation could use some improvements. The concept of the Mongoose Fury "damage window" is a bit clunky, for example. But for me the spec's main appeal is playing a melee with a pet (yes, I know there are unholy DKs in the game, but hunters can tame lots of different pets).

[Deleted]

Given that Lacerate has higher DPE then Flanking Strikes, its Flanking Strikes you start to remove from the rotation.

The way I see it it's not a choice between Flanking Strike and Lacerate/Raptor, but a choice between Flanking Strike and a +75% bonus on Explosive's single target damage. Because Spitting Cobras fixes pretty much all of your focus issues.

You should probably try it.

Or keep going without Flanking Strike if you prefer, or if the numbers are better.

I mean, I agree with everything you say, I just don't see any of it as a problem. The final numbers are too low, regardless of the quality of the gameplay and regardless of the skills of the player that's pretty much a given, but I like it that we have a large number of gameplay choices to make. I like that we have skills that are actively competing with each other for a spot on our rotation, with winners and losers. I think it's a great unique design for this class, it's "survival of the fittest" but for abilities

[Threndsa]

The way I see it it's not a choice between Flanking Strike and Lacerate/Raptor, but a choice between Flanking Strike and a +75% bonus on Explosive's single target damage. Because Spitting Cobras fixes pretty much all of your focus issues.

You should probably try it.

Or keep going without Flanking Strike if you prefer, or if the numbers are better.

I mean, I agree with everything you say, I just don't see any of it as a problem. The final numbers are too low, regardless of the quality of the gameplay and regardless of the skills of the player that's pretty much a given, but I like it that we have a large number of gameplay choices to make. I like that we have skills that are actively competing with each other for a spot on our rotation, with winners and losers. I think it's a great unique design for this class, it's "survival of the fittest" but for abilities

This is why I kinda think that mongoose fury should be tweaked a bit. Make a 6 stack give you a buff, with the benefits of a 6 stack for X seconds that refreshes every time you get up to 6. The real reason IMO that axes, imp traps, trapper etc end up being the better talents is because they can let you focus more on mongoose bites during Fury. This way you only need to get up to a 6 stack once in a given time period making it easier to weave in other skills.

If you aren't hitting raptor strikes for Mok, Caltrops or Steel traps (not sure if people actually use these in PvE but for sake of conversation) or Spitting cobra on or near CD it's a dps loss. With the change to our mastery it's not uncommon to have more than enough charges of mongoose to just wail on someone with it for it's entire duration (leaving time for eagle of course). Axes have 2 charges so they can be delayed a bit and imp trap and trapper buff explosive traps damage. This takes out 3 potential skills to worry about with no real dps loss as SV has surprisingly balanced talents.

TL;DR Mongoose damage window needs to be lengthened so that talents that add more skills aren't devalued due to the added difficulty, and no real dps gain, of weaving them into a mongoose window.

[Dahkeus]

As BM you simply never stop pulling. You don't even bother looking at your pet or using dps abilities. you just run around looking for red text and multishot it as your full time job. Gotta feed that adorable monster

But yeah the generic solo content is far too easy for hunters in general. You can go with pretty much any spec, any build, any ilvl and be as efficient as you could possibly want (and have a ton of fun too!). Things start getting interesting and you start seeing pros and cons for each spec when you take on 5-men by yourself.

MM is the same, except you have a larger cleave radius and longer range.

[Deleted]

I pretty much agree with Threndsa's observations, this one in particular:

Mongoose damage window needs to be lengthened so that talents that add more skills aren't devalued due to the added difficulty, and no real dps gain, of weaving them into a mongoose window.

Fun story, I went through similar observations while learning the spec and I tried to do the exact opposite, instead of choosing skills that integrate relatively well with the mongoose window, early on I tried to play without it. Right now I even have this /castsequence sitting about in my macro log... called "SimpleSurv", that reduces gameplay to a single button.

#showtooltip Lacerate
/castsequence reset=10 Raptor Strike, Lacerate, Raptor Strike, Explosive Trap, Mongoose Bite, Raptor Strike, Flanking Strike, Mongoose Bite, Mongoose Bite

It's only a "reset 10" macro so it's never optimal depending on haste and whatnot, doesn't take several thing into account, just a one-button spam that I quickly designed when I started playing a bit with survival.

It was missing one thing in particular: there's no consideration for the mongoose window I simply used aspect of the eagle on cooldown and fury of the eagle on cooldown at 3 stacks, and kept Snake Hunter around in case the sequence stopped due to 0 mongoose charges left at the wrong time.

And the dps was surprisingly not bad at all, for something quickly put together by a complete noob. Seriously, I was impressed. Memory is fuzzy, but I remember something like 200-220 single target dps at ilvl 835 or something. When I was trying to learn the spec manually, I remember I had a ton of troubles hitting 200 on a dummy, and that one was doing the same thing without breaking a sweat or using a single braincell.

The talent build required was way of the mok'nathal, snake hunter, improved traps, serpent's sting and spitting cobra. It was fine, relaxed, average zero-skill single target dps, with Serpent Sting & carve for AOE, very simple and very raw. And very dull as well. But perfect for early morning grinds while sipping on a fine cup of coffee.

As I haven't played much Survival overall, I'm curious if high level survival players would try and report their results with this macro, or even better, design their own version of what could be a decent Survival rotation without a Mongoose Window. I think it could enlighten many of us about the true importance and risk/reward tied to the Window, how much do we gain from it, how much do we sacrifice for it etc.

[WhippWhapp]

I pretty much agree with Threndsa's observations, this one in particular:



Fun story, I went through similar observations while learning the spec and I tried to do the exact opposite, instead of choosing skills that integrate relatively well with the mongoose window, early on I tried to play without it. Right now I even have this /castsequence sitting about in my macro log... called "SimpleSurv", that reduces gameplay to a single button.

#showtooltip Lacerate
/castsequence reset=10 Raptor Strike, Lacerate, Raptor Strike, Explosive Trap, Mongoose Bite, Raptor Strike, Flanking Strike, Mongoose Bite, Mongoose Bite

It's only a "reset 10" macro so it's never optimal depending on haste and whatnot, doesn't take several thing into account, just a one-button spam that I quickly designed when I started playing a bit with survival.

It was missing one thing in particular: there's no consideration for the mongoose window I simply used aspect of the eagle on cooldown and fury of the eagle on cooldown at 3 stacks, and kept Snake Hunter around in case the sequence stopped due to 0 mongoose charges left at the wrong time.

And the dps was surprisingly not bad at all, for something quickly put together by a complete noob. Seriously, I was impressed. Memory is fuzzy, but I remember something like 200-220 single target dps at ilvl 835 or something. When I was trying to learn the spec manually, I remember I had a ton of troubles hitting 200 on a dummy, and that one was doing the same thing without breaking a sweat or using a single braincell.

The talent build required was way of the mok'nathal, snake hunter, improved traps, serpent's sting and spitting cobra. It was fine, relaxed, average zero-skill single target dps, with Serpent Sting & carve for AOE, very simple and very raw. And very dull as well. But perfect for early morning grinds while sipping on a fine cup of coffee.

As I haven't played much Survival overall, I'm curious if high level survival players would try and report their results with this macro, or even better, design their own version of what could be a decent Survival rotation without a Mongoose Window. I think it could enlighten many of us about the true importance and risk/reward tied to the Window, how much do we gain from it, how much do we sacrifice for it etc.

INstall Gnome Sequencer- here's my Single target macro:

PreMacro:
/targetenemy [noharm][dead]
/petautocastoff [group] Growl
/petautocaston [nogroup] growl

Sequence:
/castsequence Throwing Axes, Flanking Strike, Raptor Strike, Flanking Strike
/cast [nochanneling] A Murder of Crows
/cast [nochanneling] Throwing Axes
/cast [nochanneling] Lacerate
/cast [nochanneling] [pvptalent:4/1] Viper Sting; [pvptalent:4/2] Scorpid Sting; [pvptalent:4/3] Spider Sting
/cast [nochanneling] Wing Clip
/cast [nochanneling] Explosive Trap
/cast [nochanneling] Dragonsfire Grenade
/cast [nochanneling] FlankingStrike

Post Macro:
/use 13
/use 14

Here's my opener:

premacro:
/cancelaura Aspect of the Turtle
/targetenemy [noharm][dead]
/petautocastoff [group] Growl
/petautocaston [nogroup] growl

Sequence:
/castsequence reset=4 A Murder of Crows, Dragonsfire Grenade, Explosive Trap, Lacerate
/cast [nochanneling] A Murder of Crows
/cast [nochanneling] Dragonsfire Grenade
/cast [nochanneling] Explosive Trap
/cast [nochanneling] Lacerate

postmacro:
/use 13
/use 14

As you can see- I dont have AotE or FotE in there- it's best to manually activate those, use the Hunter Weak Aura package and Tell Me When to monitor you Mongoose stacks.

My mouse has each of these sequences bound to a 125ms repeat- GSS-E just spams whatever is next in sequence that is off cooldown.

[Hiricine]

Oh, btw, Survival is not a DoT spec - Feral is a DoT spec. Affliction/Balance is a DoT spec - They have to manually decide when to reapply their DoTs. Survival is a CD/Energy based spec - We use abilities as they come off CD or when we have the energy for them, and given that ALL of our DoTs are on a CD, we basically just use CDs whose damage comes in form of a DoT. Survival's complexity comes down to its pitiful energy generation and the management of Mongoose (Also a CD resource), NOT when to use your 3-4 CDs with 30 second+ CD.

Well I suppose it depends how you define DOT spec, to me a spec that talents into two dots and has two baseline mostly counts as a DOT spec. Either way it shouldn't be, if the Mastery purely affects mongoose bite it should be doing at least 40-50% of the damage of the spec (we'll let the baseline spear ability count too since it benefits from fury).

[Derian]

And BM goes a step further by soloing everything other than world bosses with ease

Really not hard to do as any spec, it takes effort to die out in the world as a hunter.

Ill be honest, i havnt done the artifact quest

Yeah, I did the same for MM and BM, both play like wet shit right now