Tier bonus effects on resto talents

[Nythiz]

imo it's less output for less mana. at best equal hps for less mana. i'll take the stats and GCD's any day. so you're correct in your first sentence. and if your HST is doing more than chain per cast, you're doing chain wrong.

It's hard to judge at time. If you do some napkin math and assuming nothing overheals:

Chain Heal = 380% + 323% + 274.6% + 233.4% + 198.4% = 1409% spellpower
1409% Spellpower * 1.10 (floodwaters) = 1550% spellpower

HST = 82% spellpower per tick * 1.30 (Floodwater) + 72% (Queen's Decree) = 178.6% spellpower per tick
178.6% * 7.5 ticks = 1340% spellpower

HST costs 24.200 mana
CH costs 55.000 mana

HPS is really unable to be judged as HST does very little HPS, whereas CH does a ton.
Assuming you can get 1 CH cast of in the span of 1 HST tick, you're looking at CH doing 8 times more HPS.

That is why you generally use HPCT, which heal is the most efficient for the time you spend casting it.
HST costs 1 GCD (1.5 seconds); whereas chain heal costs 2.5 seconds to cast. (Haste affects both equally up to 50%, so im just striping that off).
That makes HST do 893% SP/cast time and CH do 620% SP/cast time

When you look at HPM.
HST heals 0.0554% spellpower per mana; or in other words 18.06 mana per spellpower
CH heals 0.0282% spellpower per mana; or in other words 35.48 mana per spellpower

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Looking at logs you'll likely see quite large discrepancies though. Mostly because Queen's Decree can't crit and most of it's healing is overhealing so it's value is largely reduced.
Looking at a few logs I would say that Chain Heal does about 1.5x more healing per cast than HST on average.
For HPCT that means that HST is still better as it costs less time to cast, the gap is much smaller though. HST is about 10% better HPCT than CH.
For HPM HST is also still far superior.

So for maximum healing output casting HST over CH is always worth it, unless you happen to have CBT or AG up.

Jynus might be right that CH does more healing per cast. But it's still worth putting down extra HST, because the time you waste putting them down (1 GCD) is less than the time you use casting Chain Heal and if you correct for that time spend HST does more healing (= higher HPCT).

I'm not sure where you get the idea that you have extra GCDs; I think you're misunderstanding TigerTiddles in that post. He's comparing 3-4 CH to 6 HST not based on healing done, but based on the fact 4 CH costs about the same time to cast as it costs you to cast down 6 HST. You dont get ANY EXTRA GCDs as you have "wasted" them on the longer cast time of chain heal.

[fabuloso]

Thanks for showing the logs, it definitely gives some insight.

I personally think you don't really have to adjust your playstyle that much to incorporate the tier bonus though.

Chain heal also gives TW, so you can just use the normal CH gameplay and get nearly as many stacks. Crashing Waves doesn't give twice the HST CD reduction (I was told), so picking that doesn't really make the set bonus any stronger.
If you use a normal chain heal rotation and spend your TW triggered charges on Healing Waves (assuming a mana straining long fight) and you use HST on cooldown, you would pretty much get full benefit from the set bonus without really altering your playstyle.

I was trying crashing waves because it maximize the two piece effect. Just trying out stuffs, for science lol.

imo it's less output for less mana. at best equal hps for less mana. i'll take the stats and GCD's any day. so you're correct in your first sentance. and if your HST is doing more than chain per cast, you're doing chain wrong.

I don't think you understand the concept of HPCT/HPM/HPS, we are healers not DPS, there is no fixed rotation or unlimited resource. Healers generally invest cast time to predict damage (HST and HR cast before damage) and react to situations (CH and HW spam). Most of our tool kits are situational and requires positional decision. Resource is also finite and valued. Most of our tool kit are on CD and don't compete for cast time, 2pc and 4pc do not have "chain heal" on it but it improve other shaman spells and in turn the overall shaman package.

Remember the job of the healer is to prevent death not topping the HPS meter. Chain heal is the signature spell of shaman and no doubt is a very powerful spell, but it is not the answer to all situation. The 15 yard bouncing heal will not save a dying teammate but a manual target HW will.

Also as Nythiz has point out, HST>CH in HPCT and HPM. This is math and science, it is not opinionated and its true whether you chose to believe it or not. Of cos the situation/decision to use which spell differentiate the good and the average healer. Everyone know a shaman can burst heal every 2 or 3mins but is that all we are?

As part of my test with the 4 piece effect, I finish a 9min H Elisande encounter yesterday with ZERO chain heal cast and still rank world 7th for shaman. So am I doing it wrong?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...1&type=healing

[Andrej88]

I am really happy for this 2pc and 4pc bonus on the other hand. Started playing resto shaman in legion and was never fan of CH, because it is very expensive heal with a long cast time in my opinion. Dont like that playstyle.. From beggining i was using crashing waves and trying to maximize tidal waves buff.. Thats how i used to play now, in raids and m+ .. Only thing I change is torrent for raid and undulation for m+. But atm i am thinking of going undulation even for raids, because im sitting at 20% crit , so sometimes those riptides arent effective as i would like.

Anyway I have 2pc now and already see a difference, even when I had to dump 10% mastery for haste and vers (got head and shoulders). I rarely use chain heal and i use asendance talent even in raids, so i couldnt be more happy with shaman set. My regular HW and HS goes from 262k heal to 310k. Combine that with mastery and crit and you can really see difference in raid and on meters.
And I yet have to see 4pc, because I have legendary gloves (pretorian or whatever the name is) , so with 2 charges of HST with a 18sec on the floor + 4pc bonus, I think its going to be amazing. Especially because we have dmg% reduction from it. Even now i barely die with my shaman, because of wolf and 40% dmg reduction and with like 4 HST on the ground we gonna be even tougher.

I don't really understand why people think HST is useless and dont use HW that much. They are our most efficient spells and should be used whenever theres is no need for some high burst healing. HST is useless when you just level to 110, but with artifact traits, recent buff in 7.1.5 , echo talent and now 4pc it is another story. Very usefull spell and i like it!

[Vraull]

I was trying crashing waves because it maximize the two piece effect. Just trying out stuffs, for science lol.
...SNIP...


Also as Nythiz has point out, HST>CH in HPCT and HPM. This is math and science, it is not opinionated and its true whether you chose to believe it or not. Of cos the situation/decision to use which spell differentiate the good and the average healer. Everyone know a shaman can burst heal every 2 or 3mins but is that all we are?

As part of my test with the 4 piece effect, I finish a 9min H Elisande encounter yesterday with ZERO chain heal cast and still rank world 7th for shaman. So am I doing it wrong?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...1&type=healing

you had no other raid healers and a disc that didn't know timers probably, while 4 healing 24 people. Ranking is Irrelevant. BUT you didnt oom....so you could have used some CH's because you wasted 25% of your mana pool by not using it, where as if you had used CH there would have literally been no downsides because you had mana to spare.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ling&source=93
there's my co sham in splits, with a proper healing team, using CH build. notice the fact he ooms 5 sec before the fight is over? Your raid also took 200MILLION more damage then ours, yet with an extra healer(~153M healing) he was only ~55M behind you in total healing when you had ~350M more healing to do? (dmg taken + 1 less healer)


NOW in regards to you not using CH and testing 4pc. why? since CH generates TW, you would have 3 sec off HST for every CH cast, thus netting you more HST's over the encounter VS WS which doesn't generate any. Sounds a bit silly to not use a spell that affects the 4pc when testing said 4pc. :thinking:



What I'm getting at is do not use skewed logs to agrue CH/WS please.


PS shaman aren't the burst gods anymore, we are Efficient Sustain healers. Burst god goes to Dpriest.

[fabuloso]

NOW in regards to you not using CH and testing 4pc. why?

Well I shall start with not getting into an argument with you on whose raid team is more competent blah blah blah. For the sake of forum reader less just assume you are right and I am in a weaker team. I am not trying to skew data by providing selective logs, it is the first week of raid and since I am one of the lucky few who have a complete 4pc set, I thought of sharing my experience with data. It's not like I have any other logs to chose from. Peace bro. Let's stick to the topic.

On why I am not using CH, that's because a traditional chain heal heavy build involves using ancestral guidance and cloudbrust totem. And I am trying to experiment how best to bring out both the 2pc and 4pc, I decide to go with crashing wave and EoTE. Also because both AG and SbT does not takes healing from totem. And since I am already moving away from a CH heavy build I might as well go all the way and experiment using wellspring. Hence zero CH cast.

I want to thank you for point out one thing that I have been trying to make earlier in the thread. That is to introduce wellspring along with 4pc as an althernale play style and you just help me point out that this play style have enough healing potential to heal a heroic content with a broken healer comp and incompetent healer/team mates that stand in fire.

As you pointed out, while providing competitive healing output, this play style is also so mana efficient that it end the fight with 25% mana. Hey man I am new to this play style too, perhaps next time I will try to use more HS over HW which is excellent in prenevting death and end up in even higher healing potential.

As I try to promote earlier in the thread, there maybe an alternative play style that you can choose, and it's as effective and the traditional CH build with added benefits like more mana efficient, no positional requirement etc. Like I mentioned multiple times before. I am not saying this is better, I may fail badly when mythic comes out. Who know, but at least I am trying some new that have so far been positive.

P.S English is my 2nd language and typing on phone is hard

[Deleted]

I was wondering what people would have thought of a Wavecrash (Totem Build) with our 4p?

[Deleted]

Also this set will be great in Mythic+

Chain heal also gives TW, so you can just use the normal CH gameplay and get nearly as many stacks. Crashing Waves doesn't give twice the HST CD reduction (I was told), so picking that doesn't really make the set bonus any stronger.
If you use a normal chain heal rotation and spend your TW triggered charges on Healing Waves (assuming a mana straining long fight) and you use HST on cooldown, you would pretty much get full benefit from the set bonus without really altering your playstyle.

This is pretty much where I sit on the issue so far. If you're chain heal heavy you still get the benefit of those crashing waves stacks. I can't see why you would ever not use your healing stream. Its efficient, effective and useable on the move or ahead of incoming damage. More of them is great. No playstyle alteration required.

Also makes us even better in mythic+ where we're already a major asset, which is icing on the cake.

As part of my test with the 4 piece effect, I finish a 9min H Elisande encounter yesterday with ZERO chain heal cast and still rank world 7th for shaman. So am I doing it wrong?

Thats the other thing I love about the set bonus. It doesn't affect chain heal spam that much but it makes our already efficient filler healing even better and we can put out really solid HPS over a marathon fight even when nearly OOM. Comparing that to my Monk at the opposite end, you go OOM and you're done. I definitely favour a healing wave heavy playstyle and an efficiency focused mentality. Normally I try and get 5 stacks of Jonat's focus then use the buff, so its amazing for me having a higher ratio of HW:CH than people with other legendaries.

Now all I need to do is pray to the RNG gods; only one set piece from this weeks clears. I was really hoping I'd be able to do some testing.

[Deleted]

In raids I'd always pair Torrent + Echo of the Elements. Undulation is something pretty good for 5 man dungeons but I don't see it being that useful in raids. How often do you need those huge Healing Surge casts? Overall I think a stronger Riptide is better overall in a raid environment where we rather heal the entire group than need very strong spot healing.

And I can't think of any situation where Wellspring would be better than High Tide. High Tide is just too good in comparison.

Healing surge is a great filler, if you can get your hands on a Ephemeral Paradox and pair this with Undulation + the set bonuses you can essentially Healing Wave spam in between heavy raid damage and maintain great HPS. Also that setup would be absolutely broken for high-end Mythic+ runs, like 12-15+.

[Deleted]

Awesome thread!!! I have been looking for something like this for weeks! Thanks=)

[Deleted]

I was wondering what people would have thought of a Wavecrash (Totem Build) with our 4p?

I was thinking about this too. I'm pretty sure that wavecrash is the BIS frost rune for our weapon.

[ItsTiddles]

I think I would still prefer the Buffeting Waves trait (drops from Aluriel) or Queen's Ascendant trait (From Chonomatic). They're definitely better without the 4set, but I'm not sure how much the 4set would bring up Wavecrash in priority compared to other traits.

[Guran]

I think I would still prefer the Buffeting Waves trait (drops from Aluriel) or Queen's Ascendant trait (From Chonomatic). They're definitely better without the 4set, but I'm not sure how much the 4set would bring up Wavecrash in priority compared to other traits.

Considering it first needs to beat the 2p boost to Tidal Chains, Buffeting Waves & Queen's Ascendant, I'm not really seeing Wavecrash becoming the dominant choice. Especially with actual Relics for the others available in raids.

[Deleted]

I think I would still prefer the Buffeting Waves trait (drops from Aluriel) or Queen's Ascendant trait (From Chonomatic). They're definitely better without the 4set, but I'm not sure how much the 4set would bring up Wavecrash in priority compared to other traits.

I'm shooting for the chronomatic relic. I think queen ascendant was already our strongest trait and I'm sure it is increased marginally in value by both the 2 and 4 set bonuses due to the pseudo-haste buff. Buffeting waves I can only see benefiting from the 2 set. Still a nice choice though for sure.

Definitely don't think wavecrash will be in contention unless it titanforges.