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  1. #41
    There are more losses, you just have to play every single class to know them

  2. #42
    It's almost like none of you have heard of "the calm before the storm". You're assuming that because things have been going great for the player's and their allies that it will only continue to do so. I'm fairly certain that the capstone for this expansion will be as terrible, if not more so, than the cornerstone.

  3. #43
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    You're missing the point by miles. His point was that the Infinite Burning Legion Which Has Burned Countless Worlds
    is religated on Azeroth to using proxy groups (those you mentioned) and sending forces so small that they can't even conquer camps of local resisitance.

    An army made of of potentially millions of soldiers who never truly die and have always won everywhere, every time suddenly being so small an issue that you even have time to deal with other threats isn't The Burning Legion. It's mindbogglingly small. Like invading Russia with a single company of people armed with pistols and calling yourself "The Mongol Empire."
    And we have this driven home to us at the last battle of the Broken Shore intro where Guldan summons all of our old demon foes and rank after rank of elite demons. He taunts is with the fact that the legion is infinite. And then... we kick their ass all over the place. In the 7.2.5 cinematic KJ say "Burn it all to ash..." and ships appear over Dalaran. And then... nothing.

    They did a good job setting this up but they've moved from the idea of the Legion being a serious, overwhelming threat to just another invasion. In the meantime, they're dropping plot points and character arcs:

    1) Jaina. One of the most powerful mages on Azeroth just sits out a war for our survival?
    2) Sylvana and Helya. Yeah we killed Helya, but that deal has no repercussions at all.
    3) Wrathion. He saw this coming and tried to rally us to stop it. MIA.
    4) Anduin. They seemed to advance his character in 7.2 with him realizing precisely what he was against but... MIA.

    There were echoes of Medivh in the new Kara... but nothing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Meiluy View Post
    It's almost like none of you have heard of "the calm before the storm". You're assuming that because things have been going great for the player's and their allies that it will only continue to do so. I'm fairly certain that the capstone for this expansion will be as terrible, if not more so, than the cornerstone.
    7.3 IS the end. We might see something terrible in 7.3.5 aside from the raid, but...

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Pull My Finger View Post
    Since Legion is the expansion with undoubtedly the most tragic losses, unexpected setbacks and weighty ramifications, I was able to officially identify this thread as glaring nonsense.
    Openings are supposed to set the tone for the expansion.

    The tone was set with tragedy, ever since it's been anything but.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    So struggle only counts when it applies to a global scale? Odd metric for weighing whether or not trials and tribulations matter in a story.

    See above. For a real-world analogy, the September 11th attacks only really affected a small portion of New York City, which itself is a dot on the global map, but it had wide-reaching ramifications across the world even today, 16 years later. Just because these problems didn't exist before the Broken Isles were put ingame doesn't mean they aren't problems, that we didn't get several big setbacks in trying to sort the problems out, or that these problems won't be alluded to in the future.

    By this metric, literally every expansion's events other than WotLK's were worthless.

    Also, you're ignoring much of the order hall storylines. Rogues see Darkshire completely depopulated, costing the Alliance a necessary foothold south of Stormwind, Death Knights are pushing the boundaries of morality and ethics to the point that they skirt villain-protagonist status for much of their storyline, and shadow priests are currently walking around with an Old God herald whispering madness into their ears.

    Yes, we tend to win--that is the nature of an MMORPG with a constantly-progressing story. Even in FFXIV, after that Big Setback early in the expansion, it's almost nothing but one resounding victory after another for us in Stormblood. This thread seems a lot like accentuating the negative because you expect storytelling like Game of Thrones, where so many people die off and so few characters are actually noble and attain any meaningful gains that it's not really worth caring about the story.
    Fair points, and I would agree with you on the significance of footnote events if this wasn't WoW. None of these things have lasting value. There were no lessons instilled in them for the most part and everything except for the Broken Shore and the finale will likely be forgotten from the world, with exceptions of specific things like druids grieving for Ysera.

    Which is in part, good. But mostly eh. The world went out of World of Warcraft a long time ago, but Legion shows the echoes of trying to bring it back.

    I've done the order hall stories you've mentioned, and I did find it interesting but none of this flavour and world re-building seems like it'll get far.

    And if the Alliance ever get a quest line to try repopulate and improve the state of Darkshire, if the DK player characters are strung up for their morality issues and so on, I'll gladly eat those words. But hoping for these things, like I've hoped for them to be in every other expansion only leaves me frustrated with the state of writing and leads to things like this thread.

  5. #45
    Immortal roahn the warlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    You're missing the point by miles. His point was that the Infinite Burning Legion Which Has Burned Countless Worlds
    is religated on Azeroth to using proxy groups (those you mentioned) and sending forces so small that they can't even conquer camps of local resisitance.

    An army made of of potentially millions of soldiers who never truly die and have always won everywhere, every time suddenly being so small an issue that you even have time to deal with other threats isn't The Burning Legion. It's mindbogglingly small. Like invading Russia with a single company of people armed with pistols and calling yourself "The Mongol Empire."
    I agree, I think here gameplay trumped making the story make sense. Legion feels super weak.
    It was never Hardcore Vs Casual. It was Socialites Vs. Solo players
    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    World of Warcraft started life as a Computer Roleplaying Game, where part of the fun of the game experience was pretending to be your character. Stuff like applying poisons and eating food enhanced the verisimilitude of the experience of playing a fantasy character in another world. Now that game has changed to become a tactical arcade lobby game.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    In the 7.2.5 cinematic KJ say "Burn it all to ash..." and ships appear over Dalaran. And then... nothing.
    Actually, we do something about those ships. The very first questline before we even begin to establish our base at Deliverance Point is dealing with those ships. We board them, load them up with explosives, and attack Mephistroph who's there commanding the fleet. We beat him, and he flees to the Cathedral where we later kill him. Most of the ships were completely annihilated but Mephistroph's command ship was blown into pieces and crashed into the island. That's why that massive fel lava pool that was there before 7.2 is gone. The demon rare that looks like Baleroc is guarding the remains of it, we have WQs to kill the spirits that were used in its construction that were released when it fell.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  7. #47
    Bloodsail Admiral Mahmeya's Avatar
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    Yes, Gul'dan summoned a lot of demons but he had at least some of the Tomb's power to help him. How many such powerful summoners the Legion have? I don't think much. I'd think they just overdid the start and spent too much on the initial takeover of broken shore, hoping to take us by surprise and left barely any backup plan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ramz View Post
    And don't get me started on that sad condition the Horde is in. I was never this pissed on writing team.
    Know how the Alliance felt in Cata and end of MoP.

  8. #48
    I was just thinking about their "Kingdoms Will Burn" legion hyping slogan the other day.


    Tch...

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalorakk View Post
    Why aren't we making mistakes when we're grappling with forces we hardly understand?
    We understand the Legion pretty well. We've faced them time and time again, we've gone to a Legion corrupted world and beat the tar out of them there. This isn't some new threat or something we've barely seen. This is an ancient foe that we've been dealing with in doses for a long time now.

    I see your point and to an extent I agree with it. I have nothing against us kicking ass, specially with a threat we've seen before and have been preparing for. I have issues with how little of the Legion we've actually seen. I don't even feel like I've been fighting the legion for most of this expansion. They haven't even felt like a threat outside of Suramar and Broken Shore.

    Ok one zone dedicated to the Nightmare, well done, there's usually a side threat going on in expansions, so all good.

    Highmountain had...a tribe that got corrupted...and played a very small part of the zone's story.

    Stormheim had...um...the main villain I guess? I mean he was using fel magic and was working for the Legion but really we see so little of his fel powers that I forgot he had sided with the Legion till we faced him at the end of the zone.

    Azuna had a single island with demons, which we quickly left behind.

    Suramar is where the story of Legion has been at it's best IMO. We see a consistent Legion threat, it has a good story, it progresses great, we had a hard earned victory. It was great. Even if I hate the city from a game play stand point, the story was amazing.

    While the weekly quests on Broken shore were terrible, the WQs with the talking heads aren't bad and at least the Legion feels like a threat here.

    I would have liked to have seen Highmountain in fel flames, Stormheim having more of a civil war going on or at least show us more Vrykul throwing fel spells around.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Mahmeya View Post
    Yes, Gul'dan summoned a lot of demons but he had at least some of the Tomb's power to help him. How many such powerful summoners the Legion have? I don't think much. I'd think they just overdid the start and spent too much on the initial takeover of broken shore, hoping to take us by surprise and left barely any backup plan.

    Know how the Alliance felt in Cata and end of MoP.
    Well ,they didn't lost any leader in most ridiculous, anticlimatic and unfitting way(as it's stands against said charact development AND racial lore) did they? It's not like they got robbed from possible development leaving enormous void. It's not like out of nowhere the least fitting faction leader is now in charge. There is no comparision, especially when it was well known that due to game mechanics no faction will be dismantled.
    I miss Mists of Pandaria

  11. #51
    Bloodsail Admiral Mahmeya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramz View Post
    Well ,they didn't lost any leader in most ridiculous, anticlimatic and unfitting way(as it's stands against said charact development AND racial lore) did they? It's not like they got robbed from possible development leaving enormous void. It's not like out of nowhere the least fitting faction leader is now in charge. There is no comparision, especially when it was well known that due to game mechanics no faction will be dismantled.
    As for Cata, at that point it looked we lost Magni. He got brought back as neutral now, but we could not see that.

    I expected both Sylvanas and Genn to get more screen time but I agree that with Sylvanas it's much wasted potential. I did not play horde side of Stormheim (though I plan to at some time), but I'd like to know why Helya even helped Sylvanas. Why Eyir did not kill her on the spot (she had more than enough reasons). That's not to mention that again and again the Alliance was not allowed to do anything decent and once again our leader (Genn) was beaten while she got out totally unharmed.

    Edit: As for those expected to see some screen time, Maiev was also pretty much forgotten. I expected to see something that would show more motivation behind what she did in Wolfheart and what she might be up to, but for now all she is up to is bitching about Illidan.
    Last edited by Mahmeya; 2017-07-23 at 09:27 AM.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Mahmeya View Post
    As for Cata, at that point it looked we lost Magni. He got brought back as neutral now, but we could not see that.

    I expected both Sylvanas and Genn to get more screen time but I agree that with Sylvanas it's much wasted potential. I did not play horde side of Stormheim (though I plan to at some time), but I'd like to know why Helya even helped Sylvanas. Why Eyir did not kill her on the spot (she had more than enough reasons). That's not to mention that again and again the Alliance was not allowed to do anything decent and once again our leader (Genn) was beaten while she got out totally unharmed.
    Well I am not one of those players that scream "muh faction!". I saw faults in Alliance storytelling and I'm glad some of their leaders came back to life and try to do something -it's about time. But at the same time Horde seems to be non existant, the other races don't seem to have any development aswell. Not to mention third party defenders.

    Sylvanas and Genn could still have thier skimrish in Stormheim, it didn't required to promote Sylvanas to Warchief. And not this title is turned into a joke.
    I miss Mists of Pandaria

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Mahmeya View Post
    As for Cata, at that point it looked we lost Magni. He got brought back as neutral now, but we could not see that.

    I expected both Sylvanas and Genn to get more screen time but I agree that with Sylvanas it's much wasted potential. I did not play horde side of Stormheim (though I plan to at some time), but I'd like to know why Helya even helped Sylvanas. Why Eyir did not kill her on the spot (she had more than enough reasons). That's not to mention that again and again the Alliance was not allowed to do anything decent and once again our leader (Genn) was beaten while she got out totally unharmed.

    Edit: As for those expected to see some screen time, Maiev was also pretty much forgotten. I expected to see something that would show more motivation behind what she did in Wolfheart and what she might be up to, but for now all she is up to is bitching about Illidan.
    Stormheim was a bit of a trainwreck in general. The finale cinematic left more questions that it answered.

    With some things, you can sort of intuit an answer (e.g. maybe Eyir was weakened by Helya's lantern, or she was scared of provoking what she would presume is an agent of Helya in case she had more tricks and she owed Greymane little so she just decided getting the fug out was the best option).

    And then there's Sylvanas squeezing her bow while Greymane walks away, shirtless with his back turned to her. In what world does she not just put an arrow through his heart, neck, skull or all three at once? It was just so grating to watch.

  14. #54
    It should have been a phyrric victory with half the Azeroth scorched and much more territorial changes and tragedy.

    But since players enjoy being told how heroic they are and cry when old zones change Blizz had to dumb down Legion to being one liner threat yelling army of morons.

    That's all consequence of players becoming actual lore characters which should have never happened.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post

    7.3 IS the end. We might see something terrible in 7.3.5 aside from the raid, but...
    I'm fairly certain we're getting a 7.3.5, and with 7.3 only on PTR and not complete there either, there's plenty of time for things to take a downward spiral quickly.

  16. #56
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Thoughtful Trolli View Post
    Are you fucking kidding me?

    We watched Ysera get brainraped into a slavemount and then (mercifully) die. We also had to watch Malfuckrion weep over cenarious, grabbing the air and crying like a bitch.

    there's plenty of failure, even more like that, especially in the Faction wars in Stormheim.

    I for one am glad it didn't happen to US, even though there's an Azsuna quest where the Naga drag you by chain to a raping cave, and rape you until something comes out of the shadows to save you, and it's the prelude quests to Eye of Azshara. Do you not remember these things?

    It's still less than what happened to us in previous expansions. If you don't know about these events, or remember them, look them up and realize you're wrong. Thank you, thread /closed

    EDIT: I LOOKED IT UP BECAUSE IM SO MAD AT YOU ASKING FOR MORE OF this!!!

    It's called [Save Yourself] And it's a quest in aszhara where you save yourself from the rapings by prancing around as a night elf loser bitch. Fucking disgustingly traumatic.


    You have to know you're being raped the whole time you're doing it and see some of it when you finally get in there

    How much more of that filth do you need?

    Don't tell me, the answer should be zero.
    Underrated post.

  17. #57
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meiluy View Post
    I'm fairly certain we're getting a 7.3.5, and with 7.3 only on PTR and not complete there either, there's plenty of time for things to take a downward spiral quickly.
    Uh... "We might see something terrible in 7.3.5 ..."

    But we're not getting a 7.4 unless they're hiding that and in general raid patches haven't incorporated a lot of new, non-raid content. So I expect 7.3.5 to be the Antorus raid and, hopefully, some cleanup world content that shows us the aftermath of the end of the raid. I'd love a 7.4 with more of that aftermath content but I don't expect it.

    I expect 7.3.0 to drop ~early September with the 7.3.5 raid patch ~ 3 months later, i.e. ~early December then nothing until 8.0 in about 12 months from now.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainV View Post
    The problem is that wow is actually taking advantage of hte fact we are now the hero of Azeroth, the one that defends and slays the villians and one who is simply too powerful for our own good, which may be a strong factor in the next expansion.
    Yeah sure. Every time I have to go and kill a bunch of bears and poor hippogryphs or elsewise my garrison will promptly grind to a screeching halt due to lack of resources all the hundreds of my followers time and again prove too incompetent to obtain themselves, I totally feel like The Hero Of Azeroth.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainV View Post
    My feeling is, the faction war, will be the centerpiece of expansion 7,
    Now for me that would be an instant unsub.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainV View Post
    with a stronger enphasis on the idea that its less about defeating a greater evil this time, and more about us trying to find good in ourselves.
    Even less convincing to escalate faction conflict in such circumstances, we already had that back in Cata and the idiocy was palpable.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainV View Post
    The expansion will likely be a darker chapter than all previous wow's combined, with a strong enphasis on the idea of betrayal, deception, manipulation and conflict internal and external.
    Too bad it would no longer be WoW then, rather an explicit D3 MMO with WoW's joyful and cartoony skins.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainV View Post
    In our eagerness and over-confidence to kill the last old god, and his power... we may unwittingly unleash him to his fullest might and find ourselves overwhelmed, and simply outgunned this time.
    I don't really think so, unless laughable resourcing of WoD and dissatisfying resourcing of Legion is caused by huge effort on plausible We Lose xpac. Which I'm quite sure it isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by McNeil View Post
    What we get is the Legion only being presented on the Broken Shore (in lore they should be in other places aswell, but it has never been reflected in-game) and all that happens is that they get their ass beaten.
    Funny how I just happen to recall a period before xpac launch when I scrambled to fight off Legion invasions in Westfall, Ashara and a couple other places quite evenly distributed over the face of Azeroth. I powerlevelled several toons that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by McNeil View Post
    I thought they did a solid job with building up the Lich King during WotLK, the adventure to Ulduar, and some quest lines that are continuations of what you did in vanilla WoW (facing Arugals worgen again, dealing with the Scarlet Onslaught etc).
    ...and it did have very different storytelling techinques. By the time you reached the back gates of ICC, you knew exactly who was Arthas and why you need to pwn him even if WotLK was the first time you ever 1) touched an MMO and 2) touched a Blizzard game. Ain't gonna happen again though, the minds who made WotLK are long gone from Bliz, either by physically leaving the company or by transforming into Retardalons.

    Quote Originally Posted by McNeil View Post
    MoP also had good storytelling but its theme is what turned me off for most of the part. I don't really hate the pandaren but I hate how they are portrayed as lazy fat beer drinkers, with only some of them seriously fighting against all the major threats.
    I do loathe the pandas, since as videogame NPCs they ARE what they are portrayed as: lazy fat beer drinkers with some really cheesy pseudowisdom.

    I don't really expect a story from Blizzard any more. Just give me engaging gameplay and leave at least some of the toons I like so much uncorrupted and we're good.

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