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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran View Post
    Would anybody like to clear up what "AC" actually means? Some people think its means switching between specs and some people seem to think its switching classes.
    This is the fundamental issue that causes these seemingly pointless discussions that tend to go nowhere. I've yet to see anyone change their original opinion on it.

    As far as what "AC" is insofar as what the mechanic does:
    At character creation there are 4 classes you can choose depending on what faction you want.
    Close to the beginning of your class story (around level 10 for most) you will get a quest to choose your Advanced Class. (shortened by many as AC)
    Choosing your AC also opens up 3 skill tress.
    Leveling beyond 10 will give you points to place into the skill trees however you want.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    Isn't this a old way of thinking though in the era of Rift and WoW dual spec? I mean consider it now. Raid spec, pvp spec, and solo pve spec all will probably have different builds. I have said it before it literally make no sense dual spec is not in the game. This is 2011 not pre 2005

    ToR is really the only major MMO that I know of even suggesting this. TSW and GW2 are both going the multiple build option route.
    This isn't about dual spec, this is about AC switching. I agreed dual spec not being in release is silly, but at least they caught the drift and will patch it in.
    Rifts talent system is kludgy at best, tons of choices and specs and you NEED 5 specs just to deal with the amount of choice you have with specs.
    Too much choice isn't always a good thing

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by renegadeimp View Post
    AC means Advanced Class.

    Using smuggler as an example, you have Scoundrel and Gunslinger. Changing AC lets you switch from one to another.

    Unfortunately a lot of players seem to think it means you can switch your character into a Jedi or Trooper.
    Pretty much what I was thinking. I think some People are thinking well a Jedi Knight can be A or B and thats either Tank with lightsabre or DPS with lightsabre, so why cant it switch from one to two lightsabres.. but then people arn't realising that some Advanced Class choices dramatically change the classtype.

    ---------- Post added 2011-10-18 at 10:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by PuliGT View Post
    This is the fundamental issue that causes these seemingly pointless discussions that tend to go nowhere. I've yet to see anyone change their original opinion on it.

    As far as what "AC" is insofar as what the mechanic does:
    At character creation there are 4 classes you can choose depending on what faction you want.
    Close to the beginning of your class story (around level 10 for most) you will get a quest to choose your Advanced Class. (shortened by many as AC)
    Choosing your AC also opens up 3 skill tress.
    Leveling beyond 10 will give you points to place into the skill trees however you want.
    Perfect Explanation.
    Based on this, you should not be able to change AC's.
    Compared to WoW its like creating an Orc Warlock and having your three trees (Demo, Affi, Desto) which you can "RESPEC" between. You can not change from a Warlock into lets say a Shaman just because you are an Orc.

  4. #44
    AC's have such different abilities I don't see why they would allow you to do this. That would be like making your mage into a warlock. Or making your deathknight into a warrior.

  5. #45
    Brewmaster Kiry's Avatar
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    From what I understanding, respecing within your AC will be available at launch. Price TBD. anything beyond that they are review and will not be available at launch.

  6. #46
    The Lightbringer vian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klur View Post
    Apples to oranges.

    Priests and warriors have nothing in common.

    A Sith Warrior going juggernaut or marauder is similar to a war going arms or fury. It's all a branching tree.

    Sith Warrior- Marauder or Jugernaut- 2 trees each and 1 shared

    Warrior- arms, fury, or prot

    priest- holy, disc, shadow

    No overlap in wow.

    Crappy diagram ftw!

    Mostly I'm concerned about the time sink of this game. I don't have hours upon hours to play anymore, and I don't want to level a character for months, only to find out that I should have went Assassin instead of Sorcerer.

    edit: the formatting got all mess up :\

    And whats the difference between changing AC at 10 -20 or changing at 50?
    Here's where you're wrong, a Marauder and a Juggernaut are two DIFFERENT classes. Sure, they share like 2-3 basic skills that you earn from the start, together with a skill tree, but other than that, they're completly different.
    Quote Originally Posted by bizzy View Post
    yeh but lava is just very hot water

  7. #47
    I don't see what the big deal is about having multiple specs/roles. I think this far into the genre it's pointless to be tied into one spec and role that you can play. There should be at least dual spec with no extra cost or cooldown and we should be able to change them around for minimal costs whenever we need according to what we or our guilds want/need that day.

  8. #48
    Pandaren Monk Shamburger's Avatar
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    It has now occurred to me that some people in this thread have no idea how to differentiate an AC and a spec.

    It baffles me why it's so difficult to comprehend that going from a Sith Inquisitor-Sorc AC (Healing and DPS specs) to a Sith Inquisitor-Assassin (Tank and DPS), is not something that should be free. They have completely different class mechanics and are therefore completely different classes, regardless if they are the same before level 10. It's going from a Priest to a Rogue, that's not an argument it's a fact.

    Honestly... Baffled.
    Last edited by Shamburger; 2011-10-18 at 11:08 PM.

  9. #49
    High Overlord Dalagrath's Avatar
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    To be honest I wish they made it Advanced Class from level 1 and you have 10 (or 20) levels to change your mind.

  10. #50
    Pandaren Monk Shamburger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalagrath View Post
    To be honest I wish they made it Advanced Class from level 1 and you have 10 (or 20) levels to change your mind.
    This would have been a great idea, or as it's been suggested above, just allow free AC changes from like... 10-20 or something, and then after that it's Hard, whatever that Hard may be.

  11. #51
    Does anyone outside the beta even have enough information to argue for or against AC switching? Some people have said ACs are like different classes in WoW, while others have said there's really not that much difference in them.

  12. #52
    I guess ultimately if I really want to try a Marauder I can just level a Jedi Knight as a Sentinel. Kinda forget that both sides are the same except for the aesthetics. Plus then I can do wield a green and blue saber. I just can't imagine ever playing a Sith with a ls any color but red.

  13. #53
    while several people have spelled it out, it's been somewhat nested. For reference and argument's sake, how's about a quick breakdown

    Code:
    BASE CLASS    > ADVANCED CLASS (AC)  >  ROLES
    
    
                    COMMANDO  > HEALER/DPS  
    TROOPER       < 
                    VANGUARD  > TANK/DPS
    
                    JEDI GUARDIAN > TANK/DPS
    JEDI KNIGHT   <
                    JEDI SENTINEL > DPS
    
                    JEDI SHADOW > TANK/DPS
    JEDI CONSULAR <
                    JEDI SAGE   > DPS
    
                    SCOUNDREL   > HEALER/DPS
    SMUGGLER      <
                    GUNSLINGER  > DPS
    Empire players would use the counterparts.


    Talent trees work as follows:

    • Each Class has two advanced classes.
    • Each advanced class shares a tree with it's counterpart
    • Each advance class has two unique trees.
    eg. Commando have a tree that improves healing, and a tree that improves damage. similar case for Vanguard (tree for tank, tree for dps). they also both share a tree that (assumedly) enhance the core trooper abilities.

    • One can respec one's talents similar to how one does so in WoW. go into town, pay X$ and get a clean slate. There is no dual spec. (yet?)
    • One is very (if allowed at all?) restricted in chaning one's AC. And it makes a bit of sense, looking at the chart above. you don't want every toon able to fill every role at a mere trip into town and sizable fee...


    To say that a gunslinger is identical to a scoundrel is half true. they share a small pool of basic abilities, and use the same resource system. they both work off the cover system. however, the scoundrel is more about options. they'll use tricks to get out of bad situations, where the gunslinger is more about leaving a pile of corpses in his wake.

    Can the scoundrel stand toe to toe in damage with a gunslinger? that's where the real question lies. What if I roll Vanguard, but I wanted to be a Commando? that's a tough call. I've heard they give you the class's token weapon right at accepting your new AC, so you should know you've picked the wrong one right out of the gates.

    Weapon choices are pretty restricted, so realistically that might be the best way to decide what to play. you wanna dual-wield lightsabers? you go sentinel or marauder. double bladed? assassin or shadow. pistols? gunslinger. Sniper rifle? Sniper. you get the idea.

  14. #54
    I've played in the beta.

    AC switching should not be allowed for any price, past level 14-15, in case you change your mind pretty quickly. They are different classes.

    Yes they share the same common class, but a Jedi Sage, and a Jedi Shadow are completely different. They are as different as (as has been said here previously) a priest and a Warrior. Are they both Jedi? Yes. But so is a Jedi Knight. A Sage is a healer/ranged damage dealer. A Shadow is a stealthy melee/tank. Not even remotely similar once you actually get their AC abilities.

    The story argument holds no water. Sorry. Every MMO is "story" driven. To the extent of TOR? No. But if I make an Orc Warlock, I shouldn't have to reroll if I want to be an Orc Mage, I'd just have to go through the same story in Durotar again, amirite? They're both casters and wear similar gear. In fact, they're closer to each other than a Sage and Shadow are.

    If you don't like the advanced CLASS (key word there) you select at 10, and have leveled to 35, reroll. You can even play the story A DIFFERENT WAY!

  15. #55
    Warchief Henkdejager's Avatar
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    AC? sorry im cunfused? not good at that stuff;p
    Stuff

  16. #56
    Elemental Lord Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Let's get real:
    1. People will want to change AC, and they will be in their right to want it because AC is gained later in the game - not from the start as Class.
    2. People will want to change AC at level 50, because even if leveling AC was fun - playing it at level 50 might be not that fun at all for them.
    3. People will want to change AC at level 50 to play the shit out of their Class without the need to roll another instance of the same class.
    4. You have only 8 char slots per server. So leveling same Class twice will restrict you from leveling some other Class if you want to play them all on the same server. And this is important: each class has its own story and people want to play with their friends. Deleting the old version of the duplicated class is a bit extreme. I hope I do not need to explain this.
    5. "It's like changing Priest to Warrior" is not an argument against AC change. It's just a statement of the fact. Yes, some ACs are that different within a single Class. But that alone can not be the reason to restrict AC change.
    6. Changing AC doesn't affect other players at all. So it shouldn't matter to you that some guy somewhere out there has changed his AC.

    General MMOs history allows me to predict this - you will be able to change AC at level 50 (not at launch, but as soon as demand will rise, and it will rise) and it won't be costy (for obvious equality reasons) it may be restricted with a cooldown (once a month for instance) or "uses"(example: 3 times you can do it and then it's permanent).

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    Let's get real:
    1. People will want to change AC, and they will be in their right to want it because AC is gained later in the game - not from the start as Class.
    2. People will want to change AC at level 50, because even if leveling AC was fun - playing it at level 50 might be not that fun at all for them.
    3. People will want to change AC at level 50 to play the shit out of their Class without the need to roll another instance of the same class.
    4. You have only 8 char slots per server. So leveling same Class twice will restrict you from leveling some other Class if you want to play them all on the same server. And this is important: each class has its own story and people want to play with their friends. Deleting the old version of the duplicated class is a bit extreme. I hope I do not need to explain this.
    5. "It's like changing Priest to Warrior" is not an argument against AC change. It's just a statement of the fact. Yes, some ACs are that different within a single Class. But that alone can not be the reason to restrict AC change.
    6. Changing AC doesn't affect other players at all. So it shouldn't matter to you that some guy somewhere out there has changed his AC.

    General MMOs history allows me to predict this - you will be able to change AC at level 50 (not at launch, but as soon as demand will rise, and it will rise) and it won't be costy (for obvious equality reasons) it may be restricted with a cooldown (once a month for instance) or "uses"(example: 3 times you can do it and then it's permanent).
    General MMO History? I know of many MMOs that had a similar class setup. (Start with base class, pick specialized class at ~10) AFAIK none of them has paid/currency/free switching. In addition, there are all the ones like WoW that have a larger number of base classes instead of specialty classes, and again, I don't know of any that allow you to purchase a change.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Sengura View Post
    Again with the apples and oranges. They aren't the same dude. I'll tell you what, if you want to reroll because you didn't like a particular AC, then go right ahead and reroll. Just let those with the credits who don't want to reroll have the option of switching to the other AC. It's not class switching, they will still be limited to being within the 8 major classes.


    There, problem solved, both sides are happy. Reroll if you don't want to spend the money but don't mind putting in the time and AC switch if you don't mind spending the money and don't want to experience the exact same story over again.
    Its not apples and oranges, if anything, its Honeycrisp to Macintosh apples.
    A priest is a healer/caster dps. A rogue is a stealth assassin.
    A sorcerer is a healer/caster dps. An assassin is a... Well, you know. The difference being rogues dont tank.

    If you spend your "career" learning to destoy enemies with the power of the force and restore life with it, you shouldn't be able to just "unlearn" everything and suddenly be proficient at double bladed lightsaber combat. You dont go from sidious to maul by paying someone credits.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    Let's get real:
    1. People will want to change AC, and they will be in their right to want it because AC is gained later in the game - not from the start as Class.
    2. People will want to change AC at level 50, because even if leveling AC was fun - playing it at level 50 might be not that fun at all for them.
    3. People will want to change AC at level 50 to play the shit out of their Class without the need to roll another instance of the same class.
    4. You have only 8 char slots per server. So leveling same Class twice will restrict you from leveling some other Class if you want to play them all on the same server. And this is important: each class has its own story and people want to play with their friends. Deleting the old version of the duplicated class is a bit extreme. I hope I do not need to explain this.
    5. "It's like changing Priest to Warrior" is not an argument against AC change. It's just a statement of the fact. Yes, some ACs are that different within a single Class. But that alone can not be the reason to restrict AC change.
    6. Changing AC doesn't affect other players at all. So it shouldn't matter to you that some guy somewhere out there has changed his AC.

    General MMOs history allows me to predict this - you will be able to change AC at level 50 (not at launch, but as soon as demand will rise, and it will rise) and it won't be costy (for obvious equality reasons) it may be restricted with a cooldown (once a month for instance) or "uses"(example: 3 times you can do it and then it's permanent).
    1. AC is gained extremely early in the game and is usually a clear cut choice within a class, i.e. You want to heal? X AC You want to tank? X AC
    2. You shouldn't be able to train for 40 levels as an Assassin and then all of a sudden be a Sorceror, doesn't make sense really, especially in a story driven mmo.
    3. There are 3 specs within the same AC with multiple ways to spec each, this really shouldn't be an issue.
    4. 8 character slots 4 classes on Republic and Empire with a total pool of 8 mirrored ACs. Looks to me like it was designed for you to reroll a character of each AC on both sides if you want to have 1 of each AC and see every story. Coincidence? I think not.
    5. Yes it can, its completely changing your character, the armor they wear, possibly the role they fill. It is basically like buying an ebayed level 50 character.
    6.It can effect other players. If you change from a pure DPS to a tank class and have no idea how to tank playters suffer. Reminds me of the massive tank rerolls in WoW when the LFD tool came out, horrid people.

    This general idea of switching ACs caters to the FOTM players who see that something else is "more OP' and reroll it.
    AC switching could lead to a massive swing in % of ACs due to this attitude.

    I agree that it will exist in some form eventually due to massive outcry of ^ players, i hope it is on a long cooldown, with an extremely high cost.

    ---------- Post added 2011-10-19 at 09:56 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by KvanCetre View Post
    If you spend your "career" learning to destoy enemies with the power of the force and restore life with it, you shouldn't be able to just "unlearn" everything and suddenly be proficient at double bladed lightsaber combat. You dont go from sidious to maul by paying someone credits.
    Exactly this, decide which advanced class you like and stick to it.

  20. #60
    Elemental Lord Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PuliGT View Post
    General MMO History? I know of many MMOs that had a similar class setup.
    From "history" I see a tendency (no need count MMOs that allows or doesn't allow it). You couldn't change AC in some ages old MMO which is dead now, but you can change "souls" in Rift almost on the fly. Also there's a tendency: MMOs are now less grind and more user-friendly. Yes, AC change is user-friendly feature. Leveling the same class again - is grind.

    Quote Originally Posted by jearle View Post
    1. AC is gained extremely...
    1. Changed my mind? Switch AC.
    2. AC doesn't affect story. Anyway it's irrelevant. It's player's choice. Player wants to change AC - that makes sense for him. Your, my, anyone's opinion doesn't matter.
    3. But it will be an issue, and it is for me. I'm going to play JC who can fill all 4 roles but in different ACs. I don't want to roll another one just to try out the other AC.
    4. You are wrong. There are 8 classes with different stories. If I roll one class twice - I miss out on 1 class to play on my server.
    5. Again it's a statement of a fact. Not a reason to not allow it.
    6. Artificial hypothetical issues do not bother me. Everyone is horrid when starts to do something new. There are only 2 PURE DPS ACs anyway, and 14 are hybrids with an option to respec (Are you against respecs then? by the same argument? consistency!). Also SWToR is not WoW, a lot is different there in regards to dungeons and LFG.
    Quote Originally Posted by jearle View Post
    This general idea of switching ACs caters to the FOTM players who see that something else is "more OP' and reroll it.
    AC switching could lead to a massive swing in % of ACs due to this attitude.
    Better change AC than unsub, don't you think? massive swing in ACs? Good indicator for devs to fix it.
    Quote Originally Posted by jearle View Post
    I agree that it will exist in some form eventually due to massive outcry of ^ players, i hope it is on a long cooldown, with an extremely high cost.
    If the cost will be high - there will be uproar. so it won't be high.

    Quote Originally Posted by jearle View Post
    Exactly this, decide which advanced class you like and stick to it.
    Well, do it. But don't force the rest of us.

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