So will we be able to switch ACs at level 50 or no?

[PuliGT]

From "history" I see a tendency (no need count MMOs that allows or doesn't allow it). You couldn't change AC in some ages old MMO which is dead now, but you can change "souls" in Rift almost on the fly. Also there's a tendency: MMOs are now less grind and more user-friendly. Yes, AC change is user-friendly feature. Leveling the same class again - is grind.

The RIFT soul system was interesting to me for a little bit, but then I saw the terrible difficulty they were having balancing the souls. Every class forum I went to had people complaining because every patch seemed just ping-pong around which builds were top dps. At end game there would be 1 maybe 2 viable dps builds the rest would just be too poor and because anyone could just use the top builds, everyone was expected to do so.

I don't want that to happen to swtor. By having AC as an important, unchangeable decision it forces Bioware to do the work in balancing 8 classes instead of 4. From my "history" in MMOs I've seen that the community as a whole is a lot more vocal when an entire class is weak instead of just one spec. If you let Bioware get away with having only 1 viable dps spec per base class it will make the game incredibly shallow.

[tripplebooya]

I think its lame, immersion nerds on rp servers can keep their incredibly hard AC switches, but choice is key. Sure don't make it free but how is "learning new techniques" to fill a new role less immersion breaking than paying some dude a fortune to wave a wand and make it possible.

I don't want the ability to switch willy nilly, but I'm not a fan of it being so difficult

[keaimumu]

Unfortunately a lot of players seem to think it means you can switch your character into a Jedi or Trooper.

[Puremallace]

The RIFT soul system was interesting to me for a little bit, but then I saw the terrible difficulty they were having balancing the souls. Every class forum I went to had people complaining because every patch seemed just ping-pong around which builds were top dps. At end game there would be 1 maybe 2 viable dps builds the rest would just be too poor and because anyone could just use the top builds, everyone was expected to do so.

I don't want that to happen to swtor. By having AC as an important, unchangeable decision it forces Bioware to do the work in balancing 8 classes instead of 4. From my "history" in MMOs I've seen that the community as a whole is a lot more vocal when an entire class is weak instead of just one spec. If you let Bioware get away with having only 1 viable dps spec per base class it will make the game incredibly shallow.

I am sure that is the exact same thing Blizzard told themselves 7 years ago. The issue is not balance it is perception. On a spreadsheet every number could be identical across the class.

If I am melee and get blown up by a ranged class, then you will still have end less qq about how pvp is unbalanced in ToR.

[PuliGT]

I am sure that is the exact same thing Blizzard told themselves 7 years ago. The issue is not balance it is perception. On a spreadsheet every number could be identical across the class.

If I am melee and get blown up by a ranged class, then you will still have end less qq about how pvp is unbalanced in ToR.

So the answer to that QQing is to let most of the melee switch to ranged?

[jearle]

4. You are wrong. There are 8 classes with different stories. If I roll one class twice - I miss out on 1 class to play on my server.

No Im not, there are 8 class stories 4 on empire and 4 on republic, however the classes are mirrors. So if you roll a Sith Assassin AC on empire and you want to play that corresponding republic class to see the story you could roll a Jedi Sage, thus you have 1 of each AC and have seen both stories.

Get it?

[Herrenos]

I'm in favor of dual-speccing on the fly inside your AC and relatively easy AC changes, now that I know stories won't change from class to class.

Easy role changing is one of the best things about WoW and Rift compared to other games, IMO. It makes the game better for casual players as you aren't tied down to your one unreliable healer who may or may not show up. It makes the game better for hardcore players as you don't have to sit your best players just because encounter mechanics require more ranged, or melee, or tanks, or heals or whatever.

[Black Phillip]

Better change AC than unsub, don't you think? massive swing in ACs? Good indicator for devs to fix it.

I think it's better they don't try to appease the whims of every single player otherwise the game as a whole could become 'watered-down' and convoluted. I doubt every single person out there will enjoy this game and some people are probably better off not playing.

[jearle]

I think it's better they don't try to appease the whims of every single player otherwise the game as a whole could become 'watered-down' and convoluted. I doubt every single person out there will enjoy this game and some people are probably better off not playing.

Agreed, ever player shouldn't be able to do every single role in the game. That is why there is this thing called, other people.

If you allowed unlimited, easy AC changes within a class then anyone playing a Consular/Inq would be able to fulfill EVERY possible role in the game.

Range DPS, Melee DPS, Healer, and tank.

Bounty hunters/troopers would be close in utility.

It is nice to have choices and 3 talent specs within an AC should be enough (dual spec is needed and hopefully will come in soon after launch)

[Klur]

All the anti-ac switching people are making some very good and very valid points, but the one point I keep bringing up that hasn't been answered is this:

Everything released about the class storylines so far indicates that the time it takes to complete them will be on par to 3x longer than KotOR. That's just to get to endgame. I'm sure I'll enjoy the class storyline for the Sith Warrior, but that doesn't mean I will want to do it again just to have a Marauder. I would much rather spend that time, of which I don't have much to begin with, leveling an Inquisitor or Bounty Hunter. Sure, I could level a Jedi Knight, but frankly, I'm not that interested in the Republic's side.

i agree that just switching AC willy nilly is too much. But playing a class from lv 10-49 is not always the same as playing it at 50, and spending that much time to get there only to find out that it's not what you thought it would be means that you have to restart the whole process.

[Chrysia]

Unfortunately, Klur, that's the risk you take. Again, the AC's are much more like classes, you just choose them a little later.

It would literally be like picking a mage, being dissatisfied, and being able to switch to rogue, or a warlock.

[davesurfer]

Unfortunately, Klur, that's the risk you take. Again, the AC's are much more like classes, you just choose them a little later.

It would literally be like picking a mage, being dissatisfied, and being able to switch to rogue, or a warlock.

Well without going into detail due to NDA that is not completely true. The issue I see is that you are locked into a role. People think WoW lacks tanks, just wait until people decide they don't want to be in a tank spec 100% of the time.

Once people understand how PvP is rewarded they will quickly realize that that part of the game is a major gimp to tank classes.

In WoW I am a tank, and I love tanking, but in PvP, I have a role. I hold points as prot, or carry a flag etc. I will never top the DPS charts. After PvPing in ToR I realized that they need to either allow people to change ACs, change the way they reward, or expect that in the long term people who also like to PvP will not tank.

It makes the game better for hardcore players as you don't have to sit your best players just because encounter mechanics require more ranged, or melee, or tanks, or heals or whatever.

Also this. We have tanks switch to DPS in raids where 2 tanks aren't needed. Or a heals go DPS if it is a 2 heal fight. Someone doesn't show to raid for RL issues, and we need to move things around etc

[PuliGT]

All the anti-ac switching people are making some very good and very valid points, but the one point I keep bringing up that hasn't been answered is this:

Everything released about the class storylines so far indicates that the time it takes to complete them will be on par to 3x longer than KotOR. That's just to get to endgame. I'm sure I'll enjoy the class storyline for the Sith Warrior, but that doesn't mean I will want to do it again just to have a Marauder. I would much rather spend that time, of which I don't have much to begin with, leveling an Inquisitor or Bounty Hunter. Sure, I could level a Jedi Knight, but frankly, I'm not that interested in the Republic's side.

i agree that just switching AC willy nilly is too much. But playing a class from lv 10-49 is not always the same as playing it at 50, and spending that much time to get there only to find out that it's not what you thought it would be means that you have to restart the whole process.

I understand that some people might not want to experience the same story again, but I just don't think that is a good reason to allow AC switching. As I mentioned earlier, the class story is not 100% of the content you can do. There are a lot of side quests, flashpoints, pvp, etc. In addition you can play the same story twice and do things differently the second time around. This can be the major things like being Light-side one playthrough and dark-side another. To smaller things like playing a by-the-book soldier or a sarcastic know-it-all. You can also have a different companion questing with you than you may have had the last time. Your companions interact with you and give input during dialog for quests. Sure, the experience won't be 100% new but if the problem is that you never want to repeat a quest at all, I'm sorry, you'll be doing a lot of that if you ever roll another character in your faction.

[Shamburger]

Well without going into detail due to NDA that is not completely true. The issue I see is that you are locked into a role. People think WoW lacks tanks, just wait until people decide they don't want to be in a tank spec 100% of the time.

Once people understand how PvP is rewarded they will quickly realize that that part of the game is a major gimp to tank classes.

In WoW I am a tank, and I love tanking, but in PvP, I have a role. I hold points as prot, or carry a flag etc. I will never top the DPS charts. After PvPing in ToR I realized that they need to either allow people to change ACs, change the way they reward, or expect that in the long term people who also like to PvP will not tank.

The obvious hole in your argument is that no one will have to be in a tank spec 100% of the time. As far as I know there isn't any AC that has only 3 tank trees so....

This thread isn't about respecing within your AC (which we all know will be implemented), it's about changing AC's entirely and I really wish people would discuss what we're actually talking about and not try to mesh two competently different ideas together.

Also. - What's wrong with PvP as a tank in TOR? The guard and taunt mechanics aren't rewarding enough? As far as I'm concerned those alone make it better than any other game where tanks are allowed in PvP

[Chrysia]

Well without going into detail due to NDA that is not completely true. The issue I see is that you are locked into a role. People think WoW lacks tanks, just wait until people decide they don't want to be in a tank spec 100% of the time.

Once people understand how PvP is rewarded they will quickly realize that that part of the game is a major gimp to tank classes.

In WoW I am a tank, and I love tanking, but in PvP, I have a role. I hold points as prot, or carry a flag etc. I will never top the DPS charts. After PvPing in ToR I realized that they need to either allow people to change ACs, change the way they reward, or expect that in the long term people who also like to PvP will not tank.




Also this. We have tanks switch to DPS in raids where 2 tanks aren't needed. Or a heals go DPS if it is a 2 heal fight. Someone doesn't show to raid for RL issues, and we need to move things around etc

Two things.

First, every tanking AC has two dps trees.

Second, tanks in PVP have a much more active role, and are rewarded points for absorbing damage. You don't have to be top DPS to get top honor.

[Black Phillip]

People think WoW lacks tanks, just wait until people decide they don't want to be in a tank spec 100% of the time.

In WoW I am a tank, and I love tanking, but in PvP, I have a role. I hold points as prot, or carry a flag etc. I will never top the DPS charts. After PvPing in ToR I realized that they need to either allow people to change ACs, change the way they reward, or expect that in the long term people who also like to PvP will not tank.

There is no pure tank or healing AC. All tanks and healers can switch to a DPS spec without changing ACs.

I see more QQ in this thread than on the official WoW forums.

Edit: Oops, Chrysia beat me to it.

[Aldurok]

Well, thought I'd chime in here with my thought on how this could work out:

For levels 10-15 (or w/e works best), you can change AC's by doing one fairly simple quest.

After that, you can only change AC's at levels 20, 30, 40, or 50. Doing so requires you complete a series of quests (more challenging at each level).

At level 50, starting the first quest makes you unable to change your gear until you either complete the series or choose to cancel the series. Cancelling will require you to start over with the first quest. The final quest in the series will remove all of your current gear, but reward you with gear that is basically equivalent to what a fresh level 50 of the new AC would typically have.

The first quest in the series (at level 50) will have a cooldown of say 1 month (or week or w/e), so you can't just keep switching all the time.

Now you can switch AC's, but you better really want to, as you'll be sacrificing whatever gear you use to get through the quests, and won't be able to change back for a while. Sure, some people could get around this by finding some adequate gear that's not as good as their main gear to use to sacrifice, but it will also make completing the quests longer and/or harder.

I think it fits a bit in a role-playing aspect, too. With the WoW comparison: a warrior decides he wants to become a priest. He can't just pay someone to wave a wand a make him a priest, he has to complete a series of challenges and sacrifice his armor and weapons in order to become a priest.

[KvanCetre]

I think maybe the better solution is some sort of quests where you learn about both ACs first. Not really sure how it would work, though...

[Zeerid]

I think maybe the better solution is some sort of quests where you learn about both ACs first. Not really sure how it would work, though...

They already have that. The quest guy tells you which AC does which (You don't have to chose at that moment either) and you can look in the Codex for a more in depth description of them.

[Deckon]

I for one am against the idea of allowing a player to switch ACs whenever they feel like it. It's a decision similar to other MMO's that's not reversible. For example, in AoC, WAR, WoW, etc. you pick your class and if you wanna play something else, you re-roll another toon.

"I don't like tanking, I wanna DPS" well you DON'T have to re-roll the same class, you can in fact roll another toon, experience their story, and play the roll you wish to play (IF you don't want to play through the story of your original toon.)

I feel too many people have become accustomed to how easy WoW is, and how the Dev's bet to the will of the players to water down the game, and make one of the easiest MMO's even easier. A good portion of WoW players seem to be interested in playing this game, and a want the same concession that Blizzard made to their game for SWTOR.

JUST because another dev waters down their game, does not make it a smart or good model to follow with future games. There should be at least some level of restriction, and accountability in the game, even if it's something as simple as stating your choice is permanent, and then holding the player too it. I'm surprised the people wanting an AC change aren't advocating that Blizzard allows for paid class changes.

It has been said that EACH AC plays differently from the other AC's, and that, there are multiple roles that most AC's can fill, be it a tank/dps or healing/dps role. Granted I am all for people playing what they want, but is it really that difficult to think to one self: "what do I want to play" and they read up on the possible AC's that can fill that role, and make an educated decision?

As I understand it, the game does an decent job of describing what each class, and each AC is capable of as well as their roles. So a player making an educated decision based on the given information should not be an impossible task, in fact it should be rather simple. And since the AC's play differently, and I would assume use different gear sets (dual-wielding for example), they should be considered completely different classes when approaching this particular topic.

As I understand it,t his game is easy enough as is, and from what I've read, heard, and seen via video's blogs, etc. this game's story is suppose to be EPIC, and something you'd WANT to play through a second, or even third time. With the addition of dialog choices, you can change the results of the game (too a degree I'd wager), such as light-side and dark-side choices, and the ramifications of said choices.

IF someone doesn't want to play this game for the story (which is anyone's right) I would question why would they want too, those are the people I could imagine don't want to play through the game a second or third time and as such would want the ability to change ACs.

Granted there's a degree of assumptions in my opinion, and I am not stating anything as fact, but I do feel the though of allowing AC changes detracts from the game. After all you didn't see Han Solo suddenly become a medic in the movies did you?