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  1. #161
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ares42 View Post
    Another one that doesn't understand the complaint at all. Even if you still get all the stuff you used to have. Getting to have 6 choices that have next to no real impact on your playstyle is not interesting in any way. Picking different healing options for an enhancement shaman is just stupid.
    Could you elaborate on the choice you have in the current system? How many abilities, on average, would you say you have different compared to another person of the same spec as you?

    My point is I'm going to shocked if you can come up with a viable situation for both players that differentiates both players by more than 6 abilities.
    Last edited by Ryme; 2011-10-21 at 11:19 PM.
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  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowdream View Post
    Could you elaborate on the choice you have in the current system? How many abilities, on average, would you say you have different compared to another person of the same spec as you?
    Not saying the current system gives great choices, but at least the talents I pick actually affect my play-style. Yes, being "forced" into easy choices is bad, but having the choice being completely inconsequential is in no way any more interesting.

  3. #163
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ares42 View Post
    Not saying the current system gives great choices, but at least the talents I pick actually affect my play-style. Yes, being "forced" into easy choices is bad, but having the choice being completely inconsequential is in no way any more interesting.
    These talents are almost all game changing for you, they will almost all change the way you play your class depending on what ones you pick. That is incredible if they can balance it.

    What are you finding that gives you the impression otherwise?
    I am the lucid dream
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  4. #164
    Field Marshal Calypso's Avatar
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    I realy dislike these new talent trees i like being able to make "complex" builds like we could back in TBC instead of choosing 5 random spells like they are planning to do >.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Jboyed View Post
    People do realise that most of the passives and abilities that are in the current talent trees are still going to be there as passives, right? This is just giving some awesome specialisation options that, from what I can see, are going to give great options. Don't be so reactionary. It's a big change, and we'll probably miss the old talents at times, but it's looking good.
    Unless you're a mage. Then you get to pick between Slow, Blast Wave and fucking Dragon's Breath at level 90.

  6. #166
    Mechagnome Leviatharan's Avatar
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    OMG DK STUFF, GIMMEGIMMEGIMMEGIMME...
    First, most general thing I notice: Tier 1 is disease spreading, T2 is survival, T3 is PvP, T4 is healing, T5 is rune regen and T6 bears all of the *actually interesting* AoE abilities... So for a PvE DPS like me, only three of these tiers are actually worth something (1, 5, 6). But hey, I see the applications of the others for the two other major DK builds, and you have to remember that you come out of the starting zone with the first three tiers filled up and the fourth right around the corner... But this is all before you get to the CONTENTS of the tier, which actually make things interesting:
    T1. It's a tie between this and T4 for what I would call my hardest choice. If forced to a vote I'd grab Outbreak just because I'm so USED to it, though I certainly think Corpse Explosion has made an interesting comeback. Roiling Blood is superior for AoE though- if only because its not dependent on having already filled the room with corpses, though it DOES let me get to my AoE a lot faster...
    T2. If they don't fix AMZ's scaling- I don't care if they've removed the costs and removed Bone Shield's 2% damage increase- I'm not taking it. I'd rather have an ability I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO USE rather than an ability I WILL NEVER END UP USING.
    T3. Thing I have to wonder is why any DK would pick any talent other than Asphyxiate, if it's an infinite stun. (Yes, I know, it'll absolutely change from "until cancelled" to something lame like 5 sec, I'm just being facetious.) But if they made Asphyxiate something like an Incapacitate and turned it into the go-to DK Crowd Control, I'd be all over that in PvE. Otherwise, it's all PvP stuff, which only has an effect on your T6 choice.
    T4. Like I said before, hard choice here, especially considering I'm running Unholy. Death Siphon combines so well with Dreadblade and Ebon Plaguebringer, while Death Pact is extremely convenient since it no longer eats the ghoul! I have to wonder though if there will be a glyph or talent to make Death Siphon inflict Shadowfrost damage, just so Frost might take a swing at it.
    T5. Not sure about T5 honestly. I'm almost positive nobody will take Runic Empowerment just due to the sheer number of complaints about Rune Tetris and the Whack-a-mole system. Blood Tap looks interesting and fun, but I think I'll keep Runic Corruption as my top pick just due to the advantage of HASTE at high levels.
    T6. Remorseless Winter: Frost version of the original Unholy Blight. Instead of a fourth disease, it's a stun- QQ more, melee PvPers! Depending on what you chose in T3, this might be the favorite for PvP (if you got Chillblains this'll be redundant, but anything else...); Gorefiend's Grasp: AoE Death Grip with Shadow damage. Somehow I'm seeing a repeat of Strangulate and Pestilence on the horizon just from that "with Shadow damage", but it should definitely kill any complaints about Blood's lack of AoE threat, considering they'll hold EVERYTHING IN 20 YARDS if they execute it right; Desecrated Ground: Death and Decay on CRACK. I swear, if they give us Defile after adding THIS thing, my head will explode just due to the sheer redundancy of it all... but I'll still take this in my Unholy spec over anything else.

    All in all, it's good to see that they're using a more Diablo-esque talent system and emphasizing player choices rather than cookie-cutter builds. I'd just like to see what they mean by "specialization" though- It does have those passive and spec-specific talents we know and love, right? Where are my Dark Transformation and Summon Gargoyle? Better not have lost DT for Corpse Explosion, or I'ma be PISSED...
    Last edited by Leviatharan; 2011-10-22 at 03:39 AM.

  7. #167
    You know what, this is going to break the f-ing game. This is making the game so basic and simple and it feels like I need Mommy Blizzard to hold my hand. Screw this SWTOR. And if that fails, I'll play RIFT. I love how WoW basically is ripping off all the new MMO's and some other games and has no new ideas.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Thustra View Post
    sigh, people and their 'omg no +dmg talents'.. the whole reason why those aren't there is because that automatically leads to 'this one is the best'
    For Pure DPS/damage situations, there will always be "this one is the best". Period.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowdream View Post
    These talents are almost all game changing for you, they will almost all change the way you play your class depending on what ones you pick. That is incredible if they can balance it.

    What are you finding that gives you the impression otherwise?
    Quick example, Death Knight tier 4 as DPS. Doesn't matter what you pick, whenever you need healing you push the button for the one you picked.

  10. #170
    Some of these talents are ridiculously overpowered. Seriously. I expect more than half of them to be changed a lot. If this is going live, PvP is fucked for sure.

  11. #171
    Mechagnome Tripz's Avatar
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    I hope this is all BS, Mists of Pandaria? Reeeally? and changing the talent trees in this manner? who got promoted within Blizzards numbers? bah

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by sellary View Post
    This system is nothing like Rift's and you should feel bad for even suggesting that. Rift's system is pretty much infinitely customizable: choose 3 of 8 trees, spend points however you want in these trees, get free spec abilities simply for having put X points into each tree. In WoW's system, you basically make a total of 7 choices: 1 of 3 talents every 15 levels, and 1 of 3 specializations at the beginning. This system is FAR less customizable than the 4.0 system, and both of them are much less customizable than the original system. Each class literally has 49 configurations now, compared to literally billions in the beginning. WoW's system might be on par with Rift's if they built onto it instead of revamping it every expansion, but now it just sucks.

    Not to mention: dual spec. Rift has 5 specs.
    Actually each class has 2'187 different configurations with this system. Not sure where you got 49 from, except for multiplying 2 numbers you really shouldnt have. I can see a lot more room for actually viable ones out of those ones as well, rather than the about 3 viable ones we have now. We have an illusion of choice now. People keep looking at the number times they have to click on things a little too much.

    In case you were wondering where I came up with 2'187 its as follows; 6 tiers of 3 choices each is 3^6=729 possible combinations. Times that by 3 for each spec then get and you get 2187.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldrad View Post
    You know, at some point, Hitler was "just a beta" and people didn't stop him... then he went live.
    Just saying.
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  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Hayro1 View Post
    For Pure DPS/damage situations, there will always be "this one is the best". Period.
    mheh I dunno, the warlock T6 ones for instance depend a lot on the type of fight, what you need to do and possibly howw you like to play. It's still not ideal but a lot more flexible than what we have now.

    I don't get people asking to go back to the TBC/wotlk stuff. Cause then it was definately : do this, or you are doing it wrong.

  14. #174
    I'm sorry but the talent revamp looks absolutely orgasmic. They're slaughtering their lore for some great gameplay improvements. Not a 100% sure I approve but I gotta check it out.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedevill View Post
    Ignorant. Utility decisions are not based on math, they are very scenario-based. Also makes it so you have to think about bringing more than one of a particular class, since 2 characters of the same class might have builds that give the raid unique buffs from each. You don't know what they are implementing.
    That means the "cookie cutter" builds will be scenario-based rather than generic to an entire tier. It doesn't mean there won't be cookie cutter builds.

    I'm a fan of the new system, but Blizzard cannot stop cookie cutter builds.

    Doomhammer EU

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by sellary View Post
    This system is nothing like Rift's and you should feel bad for even suggesting that. Rift's system is pretty much infinitely customizable: choose 3 of 8 trees, spend points however you want in these trees, get free spec abilities simply for having put X points into each tree. In WoW's system, you basically make a total of 7 choices: 1 of 3 talents every 15 levels, and 1 of 3 specializations at the beginning. This system is FAR less customizable than the 4.0 system, and both of them are much less customizable than the original system. Each class literally has 49 configurations now, compared to literally billions in the beginning. WoW's system might be on par with Rift's if they built onto it instead of revamping it every expansion, but now it just sucks.

    Not to mention: dual spec. Rift has 5 specs.
    lets look at warlocks for a sec right now. Lets say on boss X affliction tops dps, in that spec there are 3 optional talents but depending the fight it's probably even less.

    So in reality the warlock class has 1 or 2 possible configs right now for that situation. And in wotlk, tbc or vanilla it was one. Yes you had billions of way to be a moron, that's true. If this system brings the amount of options from 1-2 to 6 than yay. And it will do that if they remove eg dmg increasing talents.

    ( same goes for rift btw, there is a specific best config. you just have a lot of ways to fail which no decent player will do anyway cause you look up whatever the best thing is.)

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Ares42 View Post
    Quick example, Death Knight tier 4 as DPS. Doesn't matter what you pick, whenever you need healing you push the button for the one you picked.
    Correct, but thats the point. Each tier is supposed to make you choose between talents with a similar theme - cc, damage reduction, interrupts - but they do it in different ways so you pick the one you think suits how you play best. Even in your example, they all provide healing, but one is just a temp health boost, one is a relatively low healing attack with no cd, and the other a larger healing boost with a cd. While vampiric blood is obviously a tank cooldown (which makes me think they may change that) you could take it as frost for pvp now. Or you could take death siphon as a tank for an on demand small heal (depending on if they tweaked the numbers).

    Dont forget these are all subject to change at the moment too, they're more for an idea of what to expect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldrad View Post
    You know, at some point, Hitler was "just a beta" and people didn't stop him... then he went live.
    Just saying.
    MMO Champ forums - where Cata is comparable to Hitler.

  18. #178
    Several talents already look extremely op (in pvp). Warlocks for example... holy self healing much.

  19. #179
    not even a good one for druids....

    lvl 15:
    - feline swiftness: run 10% faster ? no tnx
    - tireless pursiut: we can achieve the same effect now with /cast cat form /cast dash
    - displacer beast: a blink on a 3 min cd and that put us in cat form ? no tnx

    lvl 30:
    - cenarion ward: short cooldown, hope the healing effect scales with spell power and the number is not final
    - renewal: 30% heal every 2 min means 0.25% health every sec - we lose much more health than that every sec right now
    - nature swiftness: allow for an instant cyclone every......3 minutes :| or an instant healing touch with +50% effect, the cooldown is too long
    none of those can be compared to soul leech and harvest for life (25% of direct damage converted into health and 6% health over 3 sec drained from every target around you, no cooldown - on a different row they also have spell drain on a 20sec cd...)

    lvl 45:
    - faerie swarm: finally a slow that can be spammed, too bad that every other class can do this while dealing damage...
    - mass entaglement: frost nova on a 60 second cooldown mages have it on a 25sec cooldown
    - typhoon: our old bugged typhoon
    too bad that we can have only one of them while mages and shamans have all of them

    lvl 60:
    - wild charge, usefull to escape it coupled with typhoon i assume bound backward means jump backward
    - incarnation: there's no superior form for moonkin form if there was this would be our "burst cooldown" we have asked for a while
    - force of nature: they deal damage / heal / tank depending on the spec
    too bad that one more time we have to choose only one of them, lose our force of nature (and considering the damage it does right now is not a big loss) to have a pvp "escape" cooldown (we still don't know if there's a cooldown, in which case it would be like any our ability with a huge cd)
    or a urst cooldown (every other spec has both an escape ability and a burst one)

    lvl 75:
    - demoralizing roar: nice it has 30 sec cooldown, but we can't go anywhere nor heal any decent amount in 4 sec? (2.5 because there's the GCD)
    - ursol's vortex: what's the point in pulling someone that is 15y near you on TOWARD your location? we need create distance from melees, not pull them on us...
    - bear hug: a 3 sec stun....on a 60 sec cooldown that decrease in potency as we lose health

    lvl 90:
    - hearth of wild: finally a way to precharge an eclipse......on a SIX minutes cooldown ???? and this "powerful cooldown" (it has to be powerful to be on a 6 min CD, right? ) ask us to attack with cat form if we are caster and attack with spells if we are cat.
    I can understand a feral attacking with spells, but if i go in melee range then i'm f**d up because i need once again to create a gap from the melee attacking me.....
    - master shapeshifter: same !@#$ as before if we are caster we need to spend a gcd to enter car form and benefit from the "buff" then find a way to escape from melee range
    - disentaglement: an usefull heal every 20sec if paired with renewal or maybe cenarion ward too bad we can no longer pre charge eclipse...


    worst thing of all ? not only those talents sucks for balance druids and make use choose only one of 3 buff every row when every other caster has them baseline, make us change from moonkin form (and loose the -15% dmg) because we are being forced into cat form, but they also gives nothing to resto druids except a very poor heal every 10 sec (cenarion ward)

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by russykh View Post
    Actually each class has 2'187 different configurations with this system. Not sure where you got 49 from, except for multiplying 2 numbers you really shouldnt have. I can see a lot more room for actually viable ones out of those ones as well, rather than the about 3 viable ones we have now. We have an illusion of choice now. People keep looking at the number times they have to click on things a little too much.

    In case you were wondering where I came up with 2'187 its as follows; 6 tiers of 3 choices each is 3^6=729 possible combinations. Times that by 3 for each spec then get and you get 2187.
    from front page:
    There is not talent points or ranks.
    There is one talent tree per class.

    1 tree per class, not spec.

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