Snare!

[Badpaladin]

Well to be fair, they're busy on the Monk class. No need to work as hard on other classes when they've already got a strong baseline.

[Fredzilla]

Where have you been bad? Haven't seen you here in ages.

[Andron]

To be honest, I'm less than thrilled myself.

5 levels isn't a lot.
Being a BIG level hurt Vash'jir...you ended up not with a sense of grandeur or majesty but of "Please get me outta here".
The new talent system seems to emphasise small gameplay choices rather than core values - the end result being they are both fairly irrelevant and that the main specs are very locked in.
One new class I can live with.
One neutral race - apart from helping reduce the burden on the art department - doesn't seem to offer a lot, diluting a races flavour. Not to mention the dreaded propsect of a potential neutal city. 1 Good point - it raises the possibility of Alliance High Elves.
No new profession either.
And the big end game content turned out to be pokemon.
The SM L90 Heroics look interesting. Or would have if it appeared they'd updated the story a la ZG/ZA instead of simply making it harder.
The Monk - hard to say. I'm disappointed in the additon of another tanking spec. That isn't needed. Whats needed is some way to make more players want the role. We already have more tanking specs than we need and homogenisation means the differences between them are minimal.

From a Paladin point of view....the talents they chose to showcase are boring, uninspired and show that they are simply going to tweak the existing combat system and retain the role nobody wanted as a support role. Its hard to see Holy Avenger, for example, being that useful if the class had a decent rotation. And its existence

And yet again, the skill everyone wanted - Rupert reworked as an Avatar move - gets given to another class. I hate that guy. Hes glowy but he's such a doofus.

This system probably SHOULD have formed the basis of an end game alternate advancement system rather than a replacement for the talent system.

EJL

I agree. When I saw Warrior's Avatar talent, I almost went All-Caps-Rage. Seriously? And with half the people going "OMGTHISISAWESOMEANDTOTALLYFIXINGPALADINS" and GC clearly stating that "talents are fine, only numbers need tweaking" in the Q&A, I highly doubt there will be any change up until the release, 5 months in and the first knee-jerk hotfix.

Also, I kinda frown upon the once again rehashed content. And what good is a speed buff from Long Arm of the Lolz if we will still get snared in those 4 seconds, HoF being purged almost instantly. Which brings me to the next point ... I remember some class getting a speed buff that also made them immune to movement reduction. Was it druid? Whatev', it's simply sad and dissapointing. Considering those should have been the "great moment" for Blizz to score with their new ideas for talents.

[Deleted]

You think removing the minimum range will be enough to make this a gap closer?

EJL

When combined with a snare/root break, yes. Pretty much. I thought that was quite clear from what you quoted. With the duration making it up half the time if you use judgement off CD, I shouldn't think there will be many gaps you need to close anyway.

[Deleted]

At first I thought, the decision in the first tier would be somewhat difficult, but the minimum range removal of LaotL makes this our mini-sprint on judgement cooldown. Coupled with Acts of sacrifice and freedom, this should guarantee decent uptime on our targets, making a 6 sec stun with 20 yard range on a 30sek cooldown the obviously superior choice.

Think about RRP, though. The rogue handling snares and stuns would enable the ret to spec for repentance, changing the synergy of the comp more towards RMP considering we'd basically bring polymorph to the table. The rogue could get all the freedom's and we'd also have HoP for our fragile priest. I like the thought of this.

Interesting that we first have to get a snare to realize we're better off taking other things over it. A little like moving the candy jar on a shelf you just can't reach.

€dit: And funny to think of rets hardcasting in arena. Guess if I add juking to my arsenal I'm skillcapped :P

[Vuagnon]

Paladin has to seal switch for 5 sec of 50% movement speed debuff and lose its SoT damage, Warrior can do it with autoattacks and Rend ticks for 15 sec without losing any damage. Now tell me, which one is better?

[Grewsome]

No complaints here. It's about time.

[Ap0calypse]

Warriors look like they're losing hamstring as I don't think "Cripple" would be there as a cc choice on their 3rd tier otherwise. They also lose their stun (Throwdown) and Piercing Howl if they pick Cripple.

The only thing I do not like about our cc tier is that SoJ seems to be a Seal and we lose our main form of dps whereas they do not, as theirs procs off autoattacks and rend ticks. If SoJ was just a self buff affair and we kept our dps seal (obviously lose the holy damage on SoJ as a result) then this would be fair I think. Maybe also work of Seal of Truth ticks as well, seen as their rend ticks apply the snare as well as auto-attacks? I dont see that as OP as those ticks still have to be applied in melee range by hitting them. Something with SoJ has to be balanced though, as atm it hits like a wet noodle, losing dps to apply a snare when other classes do not is not really fair.

Anyone else notice the wording is really wierd on SoJ? "Direct attacks" and no duration on it at all? Is it in actuallity a "buff" and not a seal? If this is true then we wont lose damage? But then why does it have 87 holy damage? /boggle Warriors snare specifically states auto attack hits and rend ticks. Why doesnt ours say aoto attack hits? Will all direct damage attacks proc it? TV,CS, Judgement?!? If Judgement does then that would be pretty awesome, but I doubt that would be the case. We really need more information on how Rets mechanics work. Giving us a list of talents with no clue how the spec plays is not really a wise thing to have done imo.

[Vuagnon]

I'm not completely sure but I think Cripple may be the improved version of Hamstring. So if you pick tdown instead of cripple you will still have your hstring to slow down ppl. Feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken on this one.

[Deleted]

I'm not completely sure but I think Cripple may be the improved version of Hamstring. So if you pick tdown instead of cripple you will still have your hstring to slow down ppl. Feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken on this one.

if they are doing that it stands to reason you would expect them to have the fist of stun to be the replacement for hammer of stun only when you take it so that we stil have the stun without it.

[Deleted]

if they are doing that it stands to reason you would expect them to have the fist of stun to be the replacement for hammer of stun only when you take it so that we stil have the stun without it.

If that would be true, nobody in his right mind wouldn't pick our new snare in tier 2, even though reduced cooldown and range increase on our stun are nice things to have. Fingers crossed.

[Deleted]

If that would be true, nobody in his right mind wouldn't pick our new snare in tier 2, even though reduced cooldown and range increase on our stun are nice things to have. Fingers crossed.

yea to compensate maybe un-talented is only 3 secs as well as 60 sec cd? so it's worse in both cd and duration meaning a less clear choice.

[Aydinx2]

remember frost mages? they had their time, now it's the paladin's time. inb4 qq on the forums "omg wat fk blizrad palidin thrwo 2 hammer bam ded"

I have the tendency to roll whatever is OP at the given time.
Guess it's time to dust of the old plate heirlooms.

[buxiangxiao]

im going for the stun instead lol

[Rayzen17]

If i had to pick between the stun, cc or snare i'd pick the stun also.
But if we still have HoJ baseline and FoJ just improves it, i don't really know what i'll pick, but it will be between the cc or snare, guess i'll base my choice depending on what my partner/s bring.

[Veliane]

Whatever we pick depends on a lot of things invisible to the eye of the regular 'faceroller'.
Omg stun/rep/slow but not the other 2 and every iteration of it is pointless at this point.

To determine what is more useful you have to compare it to things that aren't even known yet, to the compostition you'll run, to the activity you'll perform, to your gear... it's just endless.

The only thing we know is that you can swap them around as easily as Glyphs, so let me give you an example that is based on reliable data instead of mindless speculation.

You're going to duel a mage, you pick Seal of Slow, because they're going to blink your Stun every single time.

A Rogue, Fist of Stunningness, because they're control freaks and most of the time they're not avoiding your damage, they're incapacitating you for energy/health/cooldowns, or until they can avoid your damage again.

Now different set up, you go in arena with a Death Knight, they can provide the desecration so no need to for Justice Seal.

or you can roll with a Mage which can Deep Freeze, and given any good paladin useds HoJ as a CC, you can play a clean CC comp by picking Repentance instead.


This is not about what you're missing out on, it's about reworking our talents and make them significantly more powerful but limiting what you can pick, so you can pick up what your partners are lacking.
Right now we have those 3 perks at once in a mediocre state and our synergy is bad with a significant ammount of classes... Jack of all trades, master of none.


So don't look on what you're missing out, look the flexibility this gives you to play with more classes instead of having a cookie cutter comp for the rest of the expansion, or being useless in rated bgs, or suck it up to certain classes if you want a duel.