Paladin talents 5.0

[zealous]

I like the direction of this new style for talents, but I think it was a little TOO SOON to release this information. Since the relative usefulness of these abilities will be directly impacted by the tool-kits given to each spec, it really leaves us in a decision-less limbo. Will the new PoJ talent be awesome or useful? Is this part of a new paradigm of Holy Power abilities that activate based on the HP you currently have, instead of spending them? There's just too much unknown for these to be of much use.

The thing is, that the paladin class is once again, it seems, the one to change the most in the new x-pac (or one of the classes to change the most, I heard some rumblings about locks/s-priests getting resource adjustments).

From what I've seen, some talent trees, like the Rogue and the DK need almost no context as they either indicate very little change to core abilities or are comprised of active skills.

I mean, how much context do you really need in connection to a talent like Remorseless Winter? Not too much in comparison with Holy Avenger for Ret or Sanctified Wrath for Prot.

[zcks]

I still really hope they fix allot of the issues with the class/spec being overly reliant on passive effects & oh shit buttons, as well as the over dependence on easily dispelled buffs.


Many of these abilities have previous incarnations that simply worked better (Sacred Shield), or could easily be redesigned to better fit with how the game has changed with time (Divine Shield).

It's not like they would have to brain storm allot to find ideas either, many excellent ideas have already been submitted.


As for the new talent system/tree's, personally I feel they should be a bit deeper. As is they don't offer much of a real choice.

[Boogieknight]

Tea leaves, my good man. Tea leaves and fortune telling.

There's no way to tell right now.

I'll be a happy man if Inq is removed in its current iteration. I just found it to be boring TBH.

Would be nice if it became a stacking buff from another Strike attack, different from CS. The attack should do less dps than CS but keep up a 3-charge buff to Holy damage.

Preferably a ranged attack so you can try and keep up stacks in PvP and during movement in PvE.

There are many other ways to go ofc, that's just me spit-balling here.

What I'd like to see is something along the lines of Serpent Sting and Chimera Shot for hunter. Serpent Sting needs to be used once (Inquisition in our case) to activate the effect. Hunters can then use Chimera Shot to refresh Serpent Sting as well as deal a chunk of damage to minimize the effect on DPS. What I'd like to see is Get 3 HoPo (if they maintain that system) and activate it for the 36 seconds it runs. When it gets close to running out, instead of taking another 3 HoPo and recasting Inquisition we can use 3 HoPo to use a new ability that deals a chunk of damage (something a little lower than the damage of Crusader Strike) and refreshes the effect of Inquisition. I agree with you on it being a ranged effect for those movement phases (Fel Fire Storm from Argaloth comes to mind since my raiding in this expac is next to none.) Maybe call it Auto-da-fé and have it burn the target with holy fire for damage and refresh Inquisition. Something other than ~1/3 of our HoPo going to refreshing a necessary buff.

[Intense]

Still way too early to really tell. Gonna hold off my opinion until it gets a bit closer to release/beta at the very least. I was not all that excited about holy shield getting mutilated (again). Wish they would make up their minds on what holy shield is suppose to be.

[kaloth]

Nothing for Ret PvE? Okie....

Increased, mobility, survivability, increased utility and fixing our RNG/cooldown dependency. That's nothing?

Holy has some pretty damn good choices in their as well, some choices that will change up the way Holy paladins play in general.

The least effected by these trees is Prot, I will agree that their choices look like the most lacking, but that said, did Prot really need new stuff? It already had one of the best toolkits out of all the tanks.

Unnecessary bloat in the talent trees =/= fun. It = some abilities that look cool and do nothing to fix the class as a whole.

There is nothing for damage and mobility was not even a problem to begin with, you are mainly just siting there hitting the boss..like i need INCRESS RUN SPEED soooooooooooo helpful... i dint even mind the RNG anyways it helped alot..SO no ret will not be "fixed"...

[zcks]

Personally speaking I feel Pursuit of justice is very underwhelming on the preview.


I wish it were something like

Pursuit of Justice: Consumes all holy power to gain the "Blinding Speed" effect (basically you become as fast as light) which transports you to your target almost instantly & causes your next attack to daze the target for X seconds.
Speed of light has a Y second cool down (depends on the length of the daze & paladin holy power generation rate.

This would create a real choice when forced to choose between it, a perma snare & speed of light because it would mean choosing between an aoe heal + sprint, permanent snare or instant gap closer (Remember it takes holy power to use so it would require build up time & mean you couldn't use TV right after).

[zealous]

Personally speaking I feel Pursuit of justice is very underwhelming on the preview.


I wish it were something like

Pursuit of Justice: Consumes all holy power to gain the "Blinding Speed" effect (basically you become as fast as light) which transports you to your target almost instantly & causes your next attack to daze the target for X seconds.
Speed of light has a Y second cool down (depends on the length of the daze & paladin holy power generation rate.

This would create a real choice when forced to choose between it, a perma snare & speed of light because it would mean choosing between an aoe heal + sprint, permanent snare or instant gap closer (Remember it takes holy power to use so it would require build up time & mean you couldn't use TV right after).

I actually love this idea. Would create a gap closer for us that's not generic, not too powerful, and actually promotes tactical thinking rather than just pressing a "charge" button.

[Grewsome]

I'm exhausted after reading this thread. OK. Inevitably, we will all end up rushing to 'cookie cutter' selections based upon environment and goal (PvE/PvP-DPS/Tank). Happens every time they mix up and re-balance the skillset.

We know this isn't a final list, but I'm really hoping they give Ret Pallies one real gap closer for PvP and a decent filler for PvE. Really isn't that hard is it?

[terrahero]

I actually love this idea. Would create a gap closer for us that's not generic, not too powerful, and actually promotes tactical thinking rather than just pressing a "charge" button.

You know i love how people are still going "yah we need a unique gap closer" when Blizzard has recently revealed Monk-class will also get a Charge.

So thats, lets see.

-Warriors
-Ferals
-Rogues
-Death Knights
-Monks

Only 2 classes that do not have an instant gap closer. Also happen to be the two melee specs that have been doing pretty shoddy for many years now. Im not saying an instant gapcloser is the cure all. But it does go a long way to show how things work. Other melee specs just get the tools for the job. But Ret and Enh. are getting "unqiue" and "special" ways to sort of get the job done... kinda. Or are blatently told "it is their class weakness".

Dont think i have to remind you about the bitter taste the word "Unique" has managed to instill.

[Deleted]

Yeah, pretty sure they wont stay like that, otherwise pallys will be just...bad. Especially compared to say, druids....DKs...Priests...locks...every other fucking class there is. (judging by the talent preview which is far from final...or so they claim...)

[zealous]

You know i love how people are still going "yah we need a unique gap closer" when Blizzard has recently revealed Monk-class will also get a Charge.

So thats, lets see.

-Warriors
-Ferals
-Rogues
-Death Knights
-Monks

Only 2 classes that do not have an instant gap closer. Also happen to be the two melee specs that have been doing pretty shoddy for many years now. Im not saying an instant gapcloser is the cure all. But it does go a long way to show how things work. Other melee specs just get the tools for the job. But Ret and Enh. are getting "unqiue" and "special" ways to sort of get the job done... kinda. Or are blatently told "it is their class weakness".

Dont think i have to remind you about the bitter taste the word "Unique" has managed to instill.

Well you and I both know that they have to make the Monk viable, just as they did the DK, otherwise it undermines the new x-pac. People will cry and the forums will drown in a river of nerd grief.

So they aren't risking any too "unique" gap closer, they want something solid and functioning.

(Although I'm still trying to figure out how the Roll works backwards and sideways. Direction keys? Or is it just mystification to make people more excited?)

[Ap0calypse]

Well you and I both know that they have to make the Monk viable, just as they did the DK, otherwise it undermines the new x-pac. People will cry and the forums will drown in a river of nerd grief.

So they aren't risking any too "unique" gap closer, they want something solid and functioning.

(Although I'm still trying to figure out how the Roll works backwards and sideways. Direction keys? Or is it just mystification to make people more excited?)

I've bolded this part because its what annoys me about the people who design the classes. They want each class to be unique, and yet only 2 of those classes are not given the tools that the rest of the classes have, and are then told thats what makes them unique. To add insult to injury the new classes that are added are always given the tools that those 2 classes cannot have because it would make them lose their uniqueness?!?

Is it me or does this smell like something that comes out of the rear end of a male bovine?

[zealous]

I've bolded this part because its what annoys me about the people who design the classes. They want each class to be unique, and yet only 2 of those classes are not given the tools that the rest of the classes have, and are then told thats what makes them unique. To add insult to injury the new classes that are added are always given the tools that those 2 classes cannot have because it would make them lose their uniqueness?!?

Is it me or does this smell like something that comes out of the rear end of a male bovine?

Paladin and Enh are basically the sacrificial lambs in WoW PvP design (at least from the melee side of things, but arguably in general also).

Blizzard can't undermine the classes that have had a good PvP reputation for years (rogues, warriors etc) but they do have to introduce new classes like DK and Monk, so what they do to keep the number of powerful PvP variables (aka classes) limited is they kind of hold back a bit on the historically not too popular (PvP-wise) classes/specs like Ret, Enh, Balance etc.

As far as I'm concerned, the "no gap closer to stay unique" is just bs aimed at the people who either aren't too bright or don't care too much. And let's be realistic, when it's about Paladin PvP viability, most of WoW's population won't give a shit. Divide it by the number of people who play Paladins, then divide that by the number of people who PvP, then divide that by the number of people who's PvP is more than just 5 normal battlegrounds a week, you'll be left with quite a small number percentage-wise.

So why bother coming up with a delicate balance of classes, just elevate one and push down another.

That's my paranoid take on the matter.

[terrahero]

Its not just a charge. Its the general concept of how classes work. Ret and Enh. have been a trial and error for years. Trying to get things to work without giving them actually tried and proved tools and mechanics. All done for years under the guise of "Unique".

But in the end its just Blizzard not willing to just fix these classes with the mechanics and tools they have and know work. Charge is just one small example in the greater picture of how obvious it is.

[zealous]

Its not just a charge. Its the general concept of how classes work. Ret and Enh. have been a trial and error for years. Trying to get things to work without giving them actually tried and proved tools and mechanics. All done for years under the guise of "Unique".

But in the end its just Blizzard not willing to just fix these classes with the mechanics and tools they have and know work. Charge is just one small example in the greater picture of how obvious it is.

Ofc everything I said applies to the general mechanics of the specs I mentioned. The charge thing was just a minor example.