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  1. #61
    Field Marshal Archangelion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    Merged with the existing thread
    Ah, sorry about that Arlee, didn't realize there was another thread on this >.< My bad... ^_^"

  2. #62
    Disc:
    T1: Hmm, probably tendrils, Psyfiend also tempting but need to find out if it works with glyph
    T2: Body and Soul, though I expect they will nerf it slightly (to 40% or something)
    T3: Either star or AA, personally not a fan of the RNG in FD,CL
    T4: Depends on fight
    T5: Again depends on final numbers, with current numbers PI
    T6: Totally depends on the fight, though Vow looks a little weak

    Shadow:
    T1: Tendrils
    T2: Phantasm (lots of people are undervaluing this I feel, I spam Fade like it's going out of fashion in raids)
    T3: Divine star cos it's shiny.... and glowy... and ooooh
    T4: Final prayer
    T5: PI with current numbers
    T6: Depends on the fight

  3. #63
    The Patient Marraphy's Avatar
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    I'd use this for healing, probably:

    http://www.wowhead.com/mists-of-pand...calculator#pXI

    Although most of these are highly dependant on the fight. For instance Body and Soul is better when other people may need speed boosts, while Path of the Devout gives you a very solid movespeed increase (which could be combined with Inner Will and a boot enchant to just speed past everything)

    Divine Star probably will never change though, as the way I see it it's a lot better than the other two. I probably wouldn't change Vow of Unity either since you can use that to basically be extremely awesome at tank healing. Void Shift would be better for an emergency and Vampiric Dominance looks like a raid healing talent.
    85 Priest/72 Druid/85 Mage/24 Shaman/56 Paladin

  4. #64
    Keyboard Turner Urge's Avatar
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    The Void Shift is going to be SO abused in PVP BG's I am going to love it! They are going to have to build in some safeguard to prevent me from swaping health with a full teammate just as I am about to die from say Dots while they are at full health!

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Cephius View Post
    Please, do they honestly NOT EXPECT me to take Body and soul?
    exactly what i was thinking. body and soul is awesome and clearly better than the other 2 talents.

    was wondering, is vampiric embrace removed? or will you be able to use both vampiric embrace and Vampiric dominance?

  6. #66
    Honestly Phantasm would be really useful in PvP, and would probably be more worthwhile than Body and Soul since that doesn't remove movement impairing effects. They would have to make some changes to how levitate works for Path of the Devout to be useful.

    I'll rewatch again, but I think he said that Vampiric Dominance would replace VE.

    Honestly though guys, it's really hard to tell what will be useful and what talents are a complete waste yet because we don't know how the spells/abilities that go with them will be changed.

    ---------- Post added 2011-10-25 at 09:45 AM ----------

    So rewatching the stream I noticed on the topic of archangel he said that evangelism is a core ability and everyone will have it.

    On Vamperic Dominance it sounds like we would still have VE, but this would be a more powerful version. So you might have both, but I doubt you would be able to have both up at the same time. hard to say though.

  7. #67
    For me, this whole issue with blizzard trying to get rid of "cookie cutter specs" is a massive joke. There is NO way they will ever get rid of it regardless of what choices they give us because for a given type of playstyle there will ALWAYS be best options - which the majority of people will take. For example. The priest tiers as we have seen them so far (and yes I know they're likely to change but I'm betting not THAT much)
    From my perspective (PvE Shadow)

    Tier 1: Definitely void tendrils - AoE root ability? yes please. This one is fairly obvious as I can't think of a time when fearing mobs in a PvE environment actually helped anything (maybe worship on cho'gal)

    Tier 2: Body and Soul 100% on this one. If levitate didn't break on the slightest damage it might be a contender for speeding up groups etc. Phantasm currently gets rid of so few pve snares that it just isn't worth thinking about.

    Tier 3: This tier is between surge of darkness and archangel. The only reason there is any confusion is the wording on surge of darkness insinuating that mind blast will now COST shadow orbs in some way. Personally I think the talent is just badly worded and that surge is going to be a pvp choice to help prevent the ever present interrupt issue that shadow has. Even if that isn't the case then archangel is still the choice I would go with as it is the better overall dps increase in a PvE setting AND it doesn't consume evangelism any more if you believe the talent text.

    Tier 4: This tier is all about the surviving and for me Desperate Prayer is the pick of the lot. Angelic bulwark is pretty pointless against most raid damage as it is relatively unpredictable for the most part. Likewise final prayer is somewhat lacklustre as raid damage that takes you to that low health will either be a one shot deal and therefore waste the shield proc or will be continuous (ie you did something wrong) and kill everyone anyway. Better to have the one off reactive heal and macro it to healthstone for the king of all oh shit buttons (once dispersion is on cooldown ofc :P).

    Tier 5: This one is a genuine toss up between power infusion and twist of fate. Will have to look at the numbers but I can guarentee that one of them will be noticably better than the other. Might be dependent on boss health pool.

    Tier 6: Vow of unity might be a niche cooldown thats worth taking if we ever see a boss that hits for med-larg amounts really really fast, but lets face it, we haven't seen that since brutallus. Even then, the 30% hp cutoff makes it very dodgy to use. Void shift on the other hand is bloody awesome as a "save that person" cooldown. Also good for a stand in the lava till 5% - void shift - grip trolling tool. That isn't to say that vampiric dominance wouldn't be good. Its just that it heals for such a small amount these days that its barely worth it.

    So yeah, from what initiallly looks like a lot of choices there really aren't that many to be made. Probably because they're lumping all the pve choices in with the pvp ones as well as mixing the dps and healing ones. If it was expanded to 4 or 5 choices per tier they might end up giving some actual options. That said, this is something that affects the hybrid classes particularly badly. I can see rogues and mages for example being perfectly happy with 3 to choose between.

  8. #68
    The Patient Madam's Avatar
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    It's a shame that so far the community is showing such a negative reaction to the changes in trees.

    This summer when raiding in WoW was slow I had the time to play RIFT to max level. The talents seemed endless, new and fresh. At that time damage meters were not in game (this has since changed) and players could pick "fun" talents or build hybrid classes. Players seemed to enjoy grouping just for the pure fun of the game. You didn't hear all the banter about how bad someones DPS was, or for having the wrong spec.

    The trouble is like many have stated already, number crunchers will soon figure out the "best" spec for DPS/HPS, but is that really all anyone cares about?

    I have to say after seeing the options it will be fun to mix things up per fight, it will feel new and fresh, just hope that as a community we can get away from watching the meters less and enjoy the game play more.

  9. #69
    Honestly... My impression is that of course there will still a "best" spec... but the differences will be so close as they won't really matter and what the best will be, will be rather situational depending on your playstyle, your group you are playing with, and the fights you are doing.

    but like I said... everything depends on what other changes they make so we will see

  10. #70
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    Finally I see some tiny room for real choices. Aoe healing vs single target CD, CC vs movement, and so on, and I can see us changing talents depending on tasks/abilities of boss. I don't put too much time into analyzes yet, cause these "trees" will change a lot I am sure, but I got my hopes up this will be kewl.

  11. #71
    Again... "best" has shifted. Instead of a "cookie cutter" being "best" for an expansion or build... it'll be "best" for an encounter.

    For example, for shadow, some fights will favor PI, while others will favor having an execute period.

    The question is, if you are changing your talents from fight to fight for "best," is it really still "cookie cutter?" It's a semantic question for sure, and you can really make an argument either way. I think Blizzard is comfortable with making the argument that as long as you aren't "setting & forgetting" for tiers/expansions at a time, it isn't "cookie cutter."

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by [-Spiritus-] View Post
    The question is, if you are changing your talents from fight to fight for "best," is it really still "cookie cutter?"
    Don't know the exact definition, but let's assume it means "the best build".
    As we can switch talents on a fight to fight basis, it menas the best build "for a fight" rathern than "in generall" as it used to be (where you could only chose in between your two speccs)

    In MoP, there will be "cookie cutter" speccs for each fight, just as it is now.
    Need add CC? Void Tendrils. is there an AE slow ability? take Phantasm, otherwise B&S,
    Is it a fight, with a soft enrage kill phase? Take Twist of Faith. Need good burst above 25%? Take PI.
    Are you DD? Take Final Prayer. Are you raidhealer? Take Vampiric Dominance.

    The only situation where I would see 2 players with the same specc, but different talents could be in PvP.

    But hey, in a PvE environment, where you theoretically always know what is going to happen, you will prepare yourself accoredingly.
    And setting your talents belongs to that.
    At some point every player will notice whats best, and that's when we start talking about cookie cutting...
    Sorry, if you have talents, that have an influence on a PvE fight, they will ALWAYS be susceptible for optimisation, theres nothing you can do about it!
    There will ALWAYS be cookie cutter builds in PvE, no matter how many talents you get rid off...
    (especially DPS classes! there's just nothing you can do, appart from making talents that don't affect your gameplay whatsoever, haha...)

  13. #73
    I think the argument [that I'm expanding for Blizzard at this point for the sake of it], is that when you conjure the image of "cookie cutter," it means that one build will produce equally good results in all situations. So, for example, if you have a cookie cutter, and some dough, and you cut out 6 cookies, and bake them, functionally, it will not matter if you bake them in July or December, in France or in Brazil, in a brick or gas oven. The result will generally be the same, equally desirable cookie, assuming that the dough is the same.

    In MoP, in order to have the "best" cookie for all situations, you cannot use one cutter. You need many different shapes for each situation to obtain equal and best. Again, the counter analogy is you could just weld all the cutters together into one big cutter and say "See! Everyone's the same again!," but as I said previously, I bet the "clarification" that we'll eventually get from Blizzard is "Yes, on specific fights, there may be a "best" theoretical build for a spec, but since the previous fight demanded a different build, there no longer is one cutter that can make a "best" cookie for all situations. Hence, we have abolished the cookie cutter build."

    Or, to put it another way, when Blizzard says "Cookie Cutter" they mean "Set It and Forget It."

  14. #74
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Thanks Spiritus, now I want some cookies.

    I hear "C" is for cookie. That's good enough for me. [-Spiritus-]

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by [-Spiritus-] View Post
    In MoP, in order to have the "best" cookie for all situations, you cannot use one cutter.
    Well yes, you will be changing talents based on fight, ie no one super cookie cutter.
    but I had to switch between my 2 heal speccs (disc/holy), does that mean there were no cookie cutter builds for me in Cata? :-)
    (truely spoken: no there weren't! I had many variations of speccs both as Disc and as Holy)

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by taub View Post
    exactly what i was thinking. body and soul is awesome and clearly better than the other 2 talents.

    was wondering, is vampiric embrace removed? or will you be able to use both vampiric embrace and Vampiric dominance?
    I'm assuming it was absorbed into VD. It would be odd to have two stacking effects that do the same thing.

    Also I don't get "good at everything" from "cookie cutter." I get "everyone who's good at raiding runs 8/0/33"
    Quote Originally Posted by unholytestament
    You would think that after all these years people would have realized that the people at Blizzard aren't sorcerors and are hindered by technology just like the rest of us mortals.
    Quote Originally Posted by stormcall
    I will never understand why so many people who quit can't just QUIT and move on, and instead feel the need to come tell everyone about it, as if they just won the $100 million jackpot.

  17. #77
    Brick or Gas ovens can changed how cookies cook!

  18. #78
    Not sure if you guys caught on, but it's implied Mind Blast will be shadow only.

    Also, it was stated that ALL priests will have Evangelism, it's just a class ability.

    In regards to Power Infusion versus Twist of Faith, keep in mind it's purely fight dependent. Let's assume Shadow (all fights are assumed to be Heroic): Vaelastrasz, Ragnaros and Sinestra all strongly favor Twist of Faith. On the other hand, Power Infusion would be the clear winner on a fight like Nefarian.

    On the same token, Twist of Faith could conceivably be useless for a healing priest if we're to follow a model like Blood Queen Lana'thel, where most of the damage done was periodic damage.

    Vow of Unit is going to be an interesting ability and I wouldn't immediately discount it from Vampiric Dominance. However, we're going to need to know two things: how hard do bosses hit and how much health are tanks going to have. For example, if we were to use the current environment Vow of Unity would be surprisingly useful on a Warrior; bosses don't often hit for 70-80k which means it's conceivable to have high Vow of Unity uptime. Added bonus for also using Binding Heal, assuming it keeps its current mana cost.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by kombucha View Post
    I get "everyone who's good at raiding runs 8/0/33"
    Not necessarily. We're not the most set-in-stone DPS that there is. Even now, we have those two extra points in our spec to do what we will with them, whether it's for the fight that you're on or something you find fun. Personally, I tend to discount some people who are working on heroic Rag (or has him on farm) and don't run 10/0/31. I just find it more helpful to give the healers less damage to deal with, especially on that fight. Much better than having having Phantasm/Psychic Horror/Paralysis on that fight

    But I totally agree with what some of you are saying. The PI vs. execute is definitely a fight-by-fight or job-by-job basis. I'm interested to see how the talents play out as development of MoP continues.
    Last edited by Venith; 2011-10-26 at 01:59 AM.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by [-Spiritus-] View Post
    I think the argument [that I'm expanding for Blizzard at this point for the sake of it], is that when you conjure the image of "cookie cutter," it means that one build will produce equally good results in all situations. "
    In that case we already don't have cookie cutter specs. Load of specs have a few points left over to put into pvp/highly situational talents which mean that under certain (albeit often uncommon) situations that spec will outperform alternatives.

    If Blizz genuinely wanted to make people think about talents and avoid cookie cutters they would have more talent choices, but ones that mattered more, so for example you had to choose between really useful single target, aoe or efficiency talents. Instead we get a system where our choices are slimmed down to 1 choice every 15 levels. Which just kills the feeling that your character develops along a path you choose because of the level of spec homogeneity.

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