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  1. #61
    High Overlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trollsbane View Post
    Ok cool. I just wanted to make sure. =)

    I could be wrong, but I believe you need 10 posts.
    There you go, I was scared to answer it in case there was a breach.

    Putting the finishing touches on the Vanguard/Powertech one, should be up soon.
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  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Temeluchus View Post
    The updated chart is much more sleek and visually much easier on the eyes. Nice job and there you go.
    Thank You!

  3. #63
    Although I have no information on sith warrior/jedi knight abilities beyond what was posted in this thread, I can tell on general principles that it is almost certainly incorrect.

    It looks like the chart was assembled on the presumption that the highest damage per execution time abilites should have the highest priority regardless of cooldown. This is not correct. If you (at one time during a fight) delay an ability with a cooldown of 100 GCDs by 1 GCD, you reduce the number of casts of that ability on average by 1/100 of a cast over the course of the fight. If on the other hand you delay once for 1 GCD an ability with a cooldown of 2 GCDs, you lose half a cast (on average) over the course of the fight. Thus the actual damage loss of the delay of the first ability is the damage done by the first ability minus the damage done by your filler ability all divided by 100, and the actual damage loss of the second delay is the damage done by the second ability minus the damage done by your filler ability all divided by 2. Thus, the 2 GCD cooldown as long as it is somewhat better than filler is almost certainly a higher priority than the 100 GCD cooldown ability, even if the 100 GCD cooldown ability is really good!

    Now, you might look at what I said and think, "well, what if you can fill every GCD with a low cooldown ability, then you would never cast the long cooldown ability and that's clearly wrong". The answer is that in that case the lowest damage per execution time ability that you do cast is your filler. The long cooldown ability can always replace whatever turns out to be your filler.

    The above discussion doesn't take into account focus, but it is easy to correct for it. The value of focus is determined by the abilities the lowest priority focus generating ability that you actually use and the lowest priority focus using ability that you actually use, since these abilities will be the ones that you will use more of or less of depending on focus. The value of focus in terms of damage is the damage done by the lowest priority focus using ability minus the damage done by the lowest priority focus generating ability all divided by the difference in focus between the abilities (which is the sum of the focus generated by the focus generating ability and the rage used by the focus using ability). Judging from the chart, these abilities are assault and the unnamed "high damage single target ability", which I assume is a no-cooldown focus dump. The chart seems to imply that this H.D.S.T.A. has a focus cost of 6. Thus, the damage value of focus should be the damage done by the H.D.S.T.A. minus damage done by assault all divided by seven.

    From the general principles outlined above, I can tell without seeing any numbers that sundering assault is almost certainly the highest priority ability. Other abilities should be fit into the gaps between sundering assaults. You should cast abilities from highest priority to lowest where priority is (adjusted damage of ability - adjusted damage of assault)/(cooldown of ability). Adjusted damage means you add the damage value of any focus generated or subtract the damage value of any focus used. Notice that the definition of adjusted damage forces the focus dump ability (assumed to be H.D.S.T.A.) to have the same adjusted damage as assault. This means that the priority does not force the choice between assault and the focus dump (both have prioirity 0). When you don't have a higher prioirity ability you choose these on the basis of focus management, i.e. making sure you have enough focus to cast any higher priority focus using abilities that are about to come off cooldown and low enough focus not to waste focus from higher priority focus generating abilities that are about to come off cooldown.

    Anyway, thanks for posting this. I look forward to the vanguard/powertech chart also, especially as that is the class I am currently leaning towards.

  4. #64
    High Overlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Audax View Post
    Although I have no information on sith warrior/jedi knight abilities beyond what was posted in this thread, I can tell on general principles that it is almost certainly incorrect.

    It looks like the chart was assembled on the presumption that the highest damage per execution time abilites should have the highest priority regardless of cooldown. This is not correct. If you (at one time during a fight) delay an ability with a cooldown of 100 GCDs by 1 GCD, you reduce the number of casts of that ability on average by 1/100 of a cast over the course of the fight. If on the other hand you delay once for 1 GCD an ability with a cooldown of 2 GCDs, you lose half a cast (on average) over the course of the fight. Thus the actual damage loss of the delay of the first ability is the damage done by the first ability minus the damage done by your filler ability all divided by 100, and the actual damage loss of the second delay is the damage done by the second ability minus the damage done by your filler ability all divided by 2. Thus, the 2 GCD cooldown as long as it is somewhat better than filler is almost certainly a higher priority than the 100 GCD cooldown ability, even if the 100 GCD cooldown ability is really good!

    Now, you might look at what I said and think, "well, what if you can fill every GCD with a low cooldown ability, then you would never cast the long cooldown ability and that's clearly wrong". The answer is that in that case the lowest damage per execution time ability that you do cast is your filler. The long cooldown ability can always replace whatever turns out to be your filler.

    The above discussion doesn't take into account focus, but it is easy to correct for it. The value of focus is determined by the abilities the lowest priority focus generating ability that you actually use and the lowest priority focus using ability that you actually use, since these abilities will be the ones that you will use more of or less of depending on focus. The value of focus in terms of damage is the damage done by the lowest priority focus using ability minus the damage done by the lowest priority focus generating ability all divided by the difference in focus between the abilities (which is the sum of the focus generated by the focus generating ability and the rage used by the focus using ability). Judging from the chart, these abilities are assault and the unnamed "high damage single target ability", which I assume is a no-cooldown focus dump. The chart seems to imply that this H.D.S.T.A. has a focus cost of 6. Thus, the damage value of focus should be the damage done by the H.D.S.T.A. minus damage done by assault all divided by seven.

    From the general principles outlined above, I can tell without seeing any numbers that sundering assault is almost certainly the highest priority ability. Other abilities should be fit into the gaps between sundering assaults. You should cast abilities from highest priority to lowest where priority is (adjusted damage of ability - adjusted damage of assault)/(cooldown of ability). Adjusted damage means you add the damage value of any focus generated or subtract the damage value of any focus used. Notice that the definition of adjusted damage forces the focus dump ability (assumed to be H.D.S.T.A.) to have the same adjusted damage as assault. This means that the priority does not force the choice between assault and the focus dump (both have prioirity 0). When you don't have a higher prioirity ability you choose these on the basis of focus management, i.e. making sure you have enough focus to cast any higher priority focus using abilities that are about to come off cooldown and low enough focus not to waste focus from higher priority focus generating abilities that are about to come off cooldown.

    Anyway, thanks for posting this. I look forward to the vanguard/powertech chart also, especially as that is the class I am currently leaning towards.
    Well unfortunately your assumption is incorrect. The flow chart is designed to maintain buffs on the tank such as absorption shields and de-buffs to maintain de-buffs on the boss to reduce damage taken.

    Also if you read the spreadsheet correctly, it was designed to show the focus and cool-downs of the abilities and a way to maintain all of these de-buffs and buffs.
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  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Traces View Post
    Well unfortunately your assumption is incorrect. The flow chart is designed to maintain buffs on the tank such as absorption shields and de-buffs to maintain de-buffs on the boss to reduce damage taken.

    Also if you read the spreadsheet correctly, it was designed to show the focus and cool-downs of the abilities and a way to maintain all of these de-buffs and buffs.
    Thanks for pointing that out. So, to maximize survival you probably do want to have bladestorm have highest priority. However, force sweep's cooldown is 3 seconds shorter than the debuff it applies according to your chart. So with no lag you have a 3 gcd window to reapply it. Realistically, that's only 2 GCDs, but that still gives some leeway to avoid delaying sundering assault most of the time.

    There's no indication on the chart of any debuff or buff associated with hilt strike, guardian slash, or the H.D.S.T.A., so these abilities should almost certainly be lower priority than sundering assault.

    A minor issue with your spreadsheet: you have assault rather than sundering assault cast at 25.5 seconds, even though sundering assault wouldn't overcap focus and your priority from the flow chart is to cast sundering assault rather than assault when it is available.

  6. #66
    Uhh... I suspect using an "action list" format like SimulationCraft would make things way more readable...

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Audax View Post
    Thanks for pointing that out. So, to maximize survival you probably do want to have bladestorm have highest priority. However, force sweep's cooldown is 3 seconds shorter than the debuff it applies according to your chart. So with no lag you have a 3 gcd window to reapply it. Realistically, that's only 2 GCDs, but that still gives some leeway to avoid delaying sundering assault most of the time.

    There's no indication on the chart of any debuff or buff associated with hilt strike, guardian slash, or the H.D.S.T.A., so these abilities should almost certainly be lower priority than sundering assault.
    A minor issue with your spreadsheet: you have assault rather than sundering assault cast at 25.5 seconds, even though sundering assault wouldn't overcap focus and your priority from the flow chart is to cast sundering assault rather than assault when it is available.
    You’re right about the 25.5 second point in spread sheet – My bad, must have overlooked it (redid that chart like 6 times late at night..) thank you – a revised version on its way anyway.
    About the Sundering assault and its priority – you’re somewhat right – but the thing is that SA is tricky to give a set priority. Which is why you need to have to sets of priorities – one focus consuming and one focus generating.
    Since the more focus you have the lower the prio of SA becomes – and GS is way better threat wise than SA.
    SA has the biggest prio (of Focus generating abilities) in the flow chart – SA is on the same prio after bs/fs/gs as HDSTA is. Because the majority of the time after GS+SA bs/fs will be off cooldown and you have to go straight back to the BS part again in the flowchart. So the HDSTA usage will be roughly 1 pr minute – the rest of the time GS + SA will take over. (I will work out a spread sheet to solidify my point )
    Anywho SA should be used on cd if possible – it keeps up a sunder and generates 2 focus.

    GS loks to be a really solid threat ability that shouldn’t be left out – nor prioritized over HDSTA at any time.
    I’ll try to figure how to show the Diminishing prio of SA in the next flow chart.
    Anywho – its awesome that you actually read, understood and commented on the post ! And it was some nice points you had.

  8. #68
    Unwarranted self-importance FTW.

    Unwarranted spam is spam.
    I'm going to run with the assumption that you were talking about the accidental triple post, and just give you a warning. Please post constructively.
    Last edited by Trollsbane; 2011-10-29 at 12:20 PM.

  9. #69
    I noticed there was also a post on sithwarrior.com, and decided to continue the discussion there as it is a more focused forum (and thus probably better for in-depth discussion).

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Audax View Post
    I noticed there was also a post on sithwarrior.com, and decided to continue the discussion there as it is a more focused forum (and thus probably better for in-depth discussion).
    Yeah I posted that aswell - Its easier posting on SW forums and discussing without being afraid of breaking the NDA.
    Last edited by Elobi; 2011-10-30 at 02:45 PM. Reason: typo

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