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  1. #1

    Two questions about Disc

    What's the point of [Heal] in fights that matter? It can be replaced by damaging abilities for minor healing. And when all hell breaks loose, the time won't be wasted on [Heal] if Grace stacks are required.

    2. Isn't Archangel a bit clunky in fights where a lot of damage is going on? Correct me when I'm wrong but it appears for the fight to not leave time to use it properly or fully since precious time will be lose on trying to get stacks and the bufs. However, if might be optimal in fights of gaps "some heavy damage, stop, do ads, more heavy damage" etc., am I right?

  2. #2
    High Overlord Healeze's Avatar
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    Are we talking WoD or MoP ? Because grace doesn't exist in WoD. So I will assume that you mean in MoP.

    Basically in MoP there is basically no reason to use heal, ever. I don't even have it on my bars and I know some people who don't even have renew on theirs either, though I have it bound for emergency on the move healing if I can't shield, PoM, Holy Fire or Penance.

    With evangelism smite hits harder than heal, is smart, does damage and costs less, so basically any time you are not shielding or dealing with a specific mechanic, you should be using damage spells as disc.
    da quen b of heleng
    Healeze / Héaleze/ Heáleze/ Healéze/ Healezé

  3. #3
    I wouldn't completely unbind [Renew]. It is a confy way to heal something minor of a guy that never gets much damage. I think [Heal] is indeed useless or almost useless though I guess there is a minimal use: you need minimal heal AND you can't damage anything.

    edit: Plus renew is a small extra help to the tank.

  4. #4
    If you're talking about MoP then:

    Renew is useless, it does less total healing than a smite. Keep it on your bars for fun and the extremely rare occasion where you know the tank is about to take insane damage and you're the only one healing him and you want any extra throughput that you can get. The only time this has ever happened for me was the tower bosses on hc galakras progression.

    Heal is also useless - it costs more than smite with 3+ evangelism stacks, heals for less, and isn't a smart heal. You could keep it on your bars for the times when you're completely oom and the only thing you need to heal is the tank, but that doesn't actually happen in MoP, so you don't need it on your bars.

    Archangel isn't clunky in MoP - Atonement is the most powerful smart heal in the game, it ALWAYS heals the lowest health player, it reacts to damage faster than you could ever manually, heals for almost as much as your direct heals, costs less mana, contributes to damage and has insanely huge range. It's the perfect counter to all forms of spike damage in SoO, and Spirit Shell + the level 90 talent cover every possible AoE need. As such, you should be using it in pretty much every situation that doesn't require you to use SS or T90 or maintain rapture. Doesn't matter what the fight is in MoP, I would argue that Atonement is never the wrong thing to do unless you should be using Spirit Shell for some mechanic. That means that you'll always have full evangelism stacks, and thus you'll always be able to use Archangel. Unless you're using it with Spirit Shell or Inner Focus, PoH is a generally a waste of time and mana. Just smite everything and if there's nothing to smite it means the boss is dead.



    If you're talking about WoD then:
    You don't know much about WoD - Heal is what they've renamed "Greater Heal", Grace is different and doesn't stack anymore its just a baseline throughput increase instead, Renew is being removed, but yes, Archangel is clunky.
    Quote Originally Posted by Atonement View Post
    Well i think all 3 mage specs and all 3 warlock specs are no different, so lets just remove them all and make a single class with one spec called "caster" and it has one spell called "spell damage"
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleze View Post
    I think that all roles are no different, so let's just remove them all and make 4 classes: Aggroman, Stabbystab, Pewpew, and Healing Tide Totem.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Atonement View Post
    useless

    Can you read? I said in the case of an encounter where the priest has nothing to damage for a few seconds, there is no smite. In general I know and it's obvious that heal can't be used in any serious situation of a regular Patchwerk or other scenario.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by tobindax View Post
    Can you read? I said in the case of an encounter where the priest has nothing to damage for a few seconds, there is no smite. In general I know and it's obvious that heal can't be used in any serious situation of a regular Patchwerk or other scenario.
    Hes correct because you should use greater heal in that situation in mists. And its been that case as disc in the entirety of this current expansion as its been designed to be very useable.

    So yes heal is useless, renew though has its perks for movement.

    However currently its more healing to atone heal, though this doesn't mean you should ignore targeted healing.

    For AA there isn't anything clunky about it during mists, the builders for it are most of the spells you are casting and you can just use it off cd.

    Wod will be changing a lot of this though, heal is ok, renew is gone for disc, grace as a mechanic is gone the healing increase is just baked in, building evangelism stacks will be more thought through and you will use AA as a real cd again, for high damage phases/mechanics.

  7. #7
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobindax View Post
    Can you read? I said in the case of an encounter where the priest has nothing to damage for a few seconds, there is no smite. In general I know and it's obvious that heal can't be used in any serious situation of a regular Patchwerk or other scenario.
    As disc you should have penance macroed to auto target enemies and never use it for the heal. PW:S is your only single target heal, Prayer of healing for spirit shell and aoe healing. Archangled macro with divine star or whatever T90 you use. Rest of the time you spam holy fire on cd and then smite.

    Prayer of mending is optional and only use it if you are a tryhard...it wont do much. On immerseus you can use flash heal but otherwise never use it. You can unlearn Heal, Renew, Greater heal and pretty much everything that has "Heal" in it's name you have PW:S for that and it's about 10x stronger, If someone needs single target more than once 15 sec they are probably being a retard so just let them die if your atonement can't keep them up.

    If you want a breakdown of what you should be doing on a fight like Dark shamans here's a kill I did a few weeks ago

    67 Pennance (each hit counts as a cast)
    48 smites
    31 PW:S
    18 holy fires
    15 divine stars (on heroic we stack up in a range group otherwise go cascade)
    12 prayer of healing
    4 mindbender
    and more cooldowns.

    On this fight I was top by about 80k hps and ranked in the 80th percentile disc is my alt and I think this char is around 572, bosses were stacked.

    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...2&type=healing log

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Axelond View Post
    As disc you should have penance macroed to auto target enemies and never use it for the heal.

    That's the most wrong thing I heard today. It's not only one of the most powerful emergency heals in the game (without even having to wait for the full cast to complete). But it also gives Grace (yes, it will be changed, in the future, I know).



    It seems some of you model your thoughts on easy fights that can be controlled with comfortable/plenty of mana/overgearing situations.


    If you are getting serious and you're thinking like "macro that to be impossible to use it on a player" is just nonsense.



    Prayer of mending is optional and only use it if you are a tryhard

    OK, nobody deserves to waste time reading any more from you. That's just sadness what you just said there.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Axelond View Post
    As disc you should have penance macroed to auto target enemies and never use it for the heal. PW:S is your only single target heal, Prayer of healing for spirit shell and aoe healing. Archangled macro with divine star or whatever T90 you use. Rest of the time you spam holy fire on cd and then smite.

    Prayer of mending is optional and only use it if you are a tryhard...it wont do much. On immerseus you can use flash heal but otherwise never use it. You can unlearn Heal, Renew, Greater heal and pretty much everything that has "Heal" in it's name you have PW:S for that and it's about 10x stronger, If someone needs single target more than once 15 sec they are probably being a retard so just let them die if your atonement can't keep them up.

    If you want a breakdown of what you should be doing on a fight like Dark shamans here's a kill I did a few weeks ago

    67 Pennance (each hit counts as a cast)
    48 smites
    31 PW:S
    18 holy fires
    15 divine stars (on heroic we stack up in a range group otherwise go cascade)
    12 prayer of healing
    4 mindbender
    and more cooldowns.

    On this fight I was top by about 80k hps and ranked in the 80th percentile disc is my alt and I think this char is around 572, bosses were stacked.

    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...2&type=healing log
    Penance should be macro'd to be used offensively or defensively, it is such a good tank/spot heal when needed. It can be used to the benefit of the raid rather than just extra sniping.

    PoM can be used to great effect on the right damage patterns, spells with heal in their name (not heal itself) can be used to greater effect especially with inner focus. Pw: s is a strong tool (one you are not so great at using with 10% wasted absorbs from it).


    You should probably not link crappy example logs, your Archangel usage is damn low (3 versus an easily possible 7-8 times)

    you spirit shell healing is also very low as well (a lot wasted)

    your wasted absorbs from pw: s is also high

    you also have a death caused by iron prison from not have a pw: s

    offering information based on your own logs is not always the best idea, especially when you can be called out on it.
    offering advice aimed to only do high on meters is also not always very useful if its only to snipe better.
    offering advice on spells you might not fully understand the value of is also not useful.

    The ops questions did not really call for logs for explanation either, why you would use them i dont even know.

    He asked about "Heal" simple answer is no it is not useful and should not be bound as disc in mists. as in circumstances "Heal" would be appropriate dps healing is far more beneficial to the raid through extra damage, efficiency and effectiveness of smart heals. In circumstances you cant dps, greater heal is the option to use instead of "Heal".

    He asked about AA being clunky, simple answer it isnt, in mists its currently use on CD and as the spells to build evangelism are your filler spells you should always be able to use it on CD. Or you can save it if you like as you can easily keep up the evangelism stacks.
    Last edited by Comfort; 2014-09-15 at 03:39 PM.

  10. #10
    What's the point of [Heal] in fights that matter? It can be replaced by damaging abilities for minor healing. And when all hell breaks loose, the time won't be wasted on [Heal] if Grace stacks are required.
    There is no point to it at all at those moments. And if you are in a raid, by the time your cast goes off, one of the other healers will have already healed up your target.

    Although personally I've never found myself in a situation where I felt the need to use it over GHeal or Penance.

    2. Isn't Archangel a bit clunky in fights where a lot of damage is going on? Correct me when I'm wrong but it appears for the fight to not leave time to use it properly or fully since precious time will be lose on trying to get stacks and the bufs. However, if might be optimal in fights of gaps "some heavy damage, stop, do ads, more heavy damage" etc., am I right?
    I'm not sure how you are AA/Atonement, but you should have plenty of opportunity to penance, holy fire/solace, and smite while you are shielding and bouncing pom or whatever else you are doing. It should and can be easily used on CD as well.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Axelond View Post
    As disc you should have penance macroed to auto target enemies and never use it for the heal. PW:S is your only single target heal, Prayer of healing for spirit shell and aoe healing. Archangled macro with divine star or whatever T90 you use. Rest of the time you spam holy fire on cd and then smite.

    Prayer of mending is optional and only use it if you are a tryhard...it wont do much. On immerseus you can use flash heal but otherwise never use it. You can unlearn Heal, Renew, Greater heal and pretty much everything that has "Heal" in it's name you have PW:S for that and it's about 10x stronger, If someone needs single target more than once 15 sec they are probably being a retard so just let them die if your atonement can't keep them up.

    If you want a breakdown of what you should be doing on a fight like Dark shamans here's a kill I did a few weeks ago

    67 Pennance (each hit counts as a cast)
    48 smites
    31 PW:S
    18 holy fires
    15 divine stars (on heroic we stack up in a range group otherwise go cascade)
    12 prayer of healing
    4 mindbender
    and more cooldowns.

    On this fight I was top by about 80k hps and ranked in the 80th percentile disc is my alt and I think this char is around 572, bosses were stacked.

    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...2&type=healing log
    You made it to heroic shamans thinking you only have one singletarget heal and all tanks are retards?
    You cannot trust, nor take seriously, an adult male without facial hair.Boys have no facial hair and boys are not men.
    ╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by zoomgpally View Post
    You made it to heroic shamans thinking you only have one singletarget heal and all tanks are retards?

    When I read nonsense like that I bet it's from those that model their thoughts around raid finder or something like that or a normal mode guild that haven't gone around telling them to leave yet.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by tobindax View Post
    That's the most wrong thing I heard today. It's not only one of the most powerful emergency heals in the game (without even having to wait for the full cast to complete). But it also gives Grace (yes, it will be changed, in the future, I know).



    It seems some of you model your thoughts on easy fights that can be controlled with comfortable/plenty of mana/overgearing situations.


    If you are getting serious and you're thinking like "macro that to be impossible to use it on a player" is just nonsense.






    OK, nobody deserves to waste time reading any more from you. That's just sadness what you just said there.
    You can argue with us all you like, it doesn't make you correct, and you're being unnecessarily rude. In MoP, penance is almost never worth using on targeted healing. If you need a massive emergency heal you have life swap. Furthermore, most tanks can pretty much self sustain without the need for any real healing. Lastly, by using penance as atonement, you guarente that all 3 ticks will be effective healing, where as if you use it defensively you generally only use 1 tick and the other two become overhealing. Furthermore, PWS is a far better emergency option for disc, as it has superior throughput since it benefits twice as much from our mastery than direct heals like penance. Its also instant, and the full amount in one go, rather than over 2 seconds like penance. But like I said, as disc, targeted healing is most often sub-optimal to using atonement, since atonement will always react much faster than you can - it reacts almost faster than the raid frames can update. Its especially more effective for players who have high latency for whatever reason.
    True, its not a good idea to macro penance to be impossible to use defensively, there is always the possibility of needing to use it on a player, but the situation is as rare as needing to use renew or heal. A player who uses excessive targeted healing will NEVER be as effective or save as many people as someone who uses excessive atonement in MoP. It's necessary to directly target for certain mechanics such as Iron Prisons on HC Dark Shamans, puddle soaking on malk, He Softfoot's P2 on protectors etc, etc, and for Spirit Shell, but in almost every other situation your Atonement healing is more effective and will save more players.


    Also, at HC SoO itemlevels, PoM is a waste of a GCD in many situations, its healing gets outscaled by most other abilities and as disc because your DA is likely to be on people, PoM often won't trigger when it's needed cause absorbs. It is, however, still worth using in situations that involve pulsing AoE or dots on many players, because you can be fairly confident that it will bounce all 5 times and it's also a smart heal as long as it's bouncing quickly and not staying on a target for too long. Examples of when its still worth using for Pulsing AoE are Nuroshen, during the assault mode on Iron Juggernaut and even on Thok, for DoTs its things like Protectors when He's garrote is on many people, Shaman's for Toxic Mist, Nazgrim's Bonecracker, etc, etc.

    Can you read? I said in the case of an encounter where the priest has nothing to damage for a few seconds, there is no smite. In general I know and it's obvious that heal can't be used in any serious situation of a regular Patchwerk or other scenario.
    No such encounter exists in MoP. There is ALWAYS something to smite. And if that is somehow the situation, which it won't be, then heal is still useless, you're better off using that time on T90, Spirit Shell/PoH, Greater Heal, Penance, PoM, PWS, HoH, PoH.

    For those who are saying they've never had a need for Gheal, I would agree except my 25man has our prot war solo tank hc malkorok's blood rage, and I use Gheal + IF + Spirit shell for massive shields on him while malk is transitioning then I go into Pain Sup > PWS > Penance > Flash Heal > Flash Heal > Flash Heal > Barrier > PWS > Penance repeat until its over. I have never needed Gheal outside of this situation.

    Axelond said a lot of oversimplified, incorrect shit, but I have to agree with him on one thing. If your atonement can't keep someone up, and you've already had to use PWS on them in within the duration of Weakened Soul, then they probably are taking damage they shouldn't be. That doesn't mean you just let them die, but TBH if atonement + PWS can't save them its very unlikely that your slower reaction targeted heals could have, unless you were able to pre-emptively stack DA on them. But you really shouldn't link logs with only 17% AA uptime, 68% ToF uptime and no PoM when there are massive dots like Toxic Mist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Atonement View Post
    Well i think all 3 mage specs and all 3 warlock specs are no different, so lets just remove them all and make a single class with one spec called "caster" and it has one spell called "spell damage"
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleze View Post
    I think that all roles are no different, so let's just remove them all and make 4 classes: Aggroman, Stabbystab, Pewpew, and Healing Tide Totem.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by tobindax View Post
    When I read nonsense like that I bet it's from those that model their thoughts around raid finder or something like that or a normal mode guild that haven't gone around telling them to leave yet.
    I dont know why your so abundantly rude, and in addition your are also plainly wrong.
    As atonement has pointed out in the post above me.

  15. #15
    @ atonement you should understand atonement healing at the end of the day is mainly snipe healing, effective: Yes necessary to use every penance for it: No.
    More and more often now guilds are using strategies that use tank vengeance cheesing. When you are in that position once you start farm you would probably change your opinion on using penance defensively. Tanks become incredibly reliant on healers at that point. And you mention malk, 1 tank taking all the stacks before blood rage will have you praising the fact you have penance for tank healing.

    Just because in your guild you haven't had a need to use it defensively doesn't mean the situation doesn't exist. My guild run 2-4 healers on all fights and take advantage of tanks cheesing vengeance to speed things up further, and I do use it defensively when required.

  16. #16
    I like to use Heal on occasions where there's nothing to dps but yet I don't want to use GH to "waste mana". Like the first few seconds in Klaxxi hc (at least our tactics) the first 5-10 seconds we don't dps at all so I do ProM->LMG proc->2x PW:S->Penance on our squishy BrM and then just start using a couple of Heals until I can start dps:ing.

  17. #17
    you could always dps the boss you are bating bloods on at the start, you should be tbh. i dont understand why you use heal, especially if you are at klaxxi hc.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by tobindax View Post
    I wouldn't completely unbind [Renew]. It is a confy way to heal something minor of a guy that never gets much damage. I think [Heal] is indeed useless or almost useless though I guess there is a minimal use: you need minimal heal AND you can't damage anything.

    edit: Plus renew is a small extra help to the tank.
    I can't think of a situation where you can't damage anything and damage is going out. Heal isn't even on my bars tbh.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Comfort View Post
    @ atonement you should understand atonement healing at the end of the day is mainly snipe healing, effective: Yes necessary to use every penance for it: No.
    More and more often now guilds are using strategies that use tank vengeance cheesing. When you are in that position once you start farm you would probably change your opinion on using penance defensively. Tanks become incredibly reliant on healers at that point. And you mention malk, 1 tank taking all the stacks before blood rage will have you praising the fact you have penance for tank healing.

    Just because in your guild you haven't had a need to use it defensively doesn't mean the situation doesn't exist. My guild run 2-4 healers on all fights and take advantage of tanks cheesing vengeance to speed things up further, and I do use it defensively when required.
    Then that is one situation in which you still need to use penance defensively. I'm not sure what your point is, I clearly said that there are still situations that call for defensive penance, and that macroing penance to only be used offensively was stupid. But its still mostly not worth using defensively.
    Atonement healing is only sniping when there isnt much spike damage. When there is a lot of spike damage, atonement healing is the most effective counter, there is no other ability in the game more effective at preventing spike deaths. Iron Juggernaught hc Phase 2 for example.
    Quote Originally Posted by Atonement View Post
    Well i think all 3 mage specs and all 3 warlock specs are no different, so lets just remove them all and make a single class with one spec called "caster" and it has one spell called "spell damage"
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleze View Post
    I think that all roles are no different, so let's just remove them all and make 4 classes: Aggroman, Stabbystab, Pewpew, and Healing Tide Totem.

  20. #20
    I've now read two threads tobindax started where he exhibits zero knowledge of how to properly heal or dps as a priest. I'd take everything he says with a huge grain of salt.

    Also he's SUPER aggressive and calls everyone idiots if they have a different opinion.

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