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  1. #21
    I see cataclysm a failure compared to TBC, but not WoTLK. Cata is pretty much a glorifed WoTLK, took what was good about WoTLK, but also alot of bad stuff.

    I perticulary good thing is that the older raids do not get desirted once the next raid concent hits. I.e. people are still playing BoT/BWD, atleast on my realm. That was one of the things I loved about TBC, could have just been that I was in a shitty guild, but we kept raiding Kara, Gruul, Mag, SSC/TK even when BT was out. Each week, cleared it all.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by peedei View Post
    what do you think?
    I think Cataclysm went great.

    The fact is, cataclysm enraptured the entire player base:

    - Made heroics approachable for lesser-geared players and short enough so it wasn't taking hours to complete something you've done a few times over
    - Great heroic variety
    - Dual lockouts so now 10 man raiders can compete with 25 man raiders
    - Less server socializing so now I don't have to hear people whine and complain about everything
    - Guild levels were fun and capped out at an appropriate level so that guilds of all sizes could reach mass resurrection with enough work
    - The end game was...okay, I agree with you there. Need a lot more content to keep us busy in MoP. I think pokemon battles should do the trick.
    - I'm not quite sure I understand what you're saying here. Is this just a repeat "there's nothing to do!"?
    - Questing was extremely entertaining and linear so I didn't get lost halfway through the zone trying to find the next line of quests.
    - People who are leveling up now have a choice of PvPing, running dungeons, or questing with similar experience points for all.

    (None of those are facts, I just thought I'd point that out. They're all opinions.)

  3. #23
    Losing a million subs is success? Guild perks sucked because you couldn't start a new guild if you wanted. Lockout system is a disaster and prevented pugging with people on your realm. Yeah no zarhym is right only a few parts of cata sucked. Are they high over there?

  4. #24
    It was not a failure, but from my perspective it removed a little more of the "epic" feeling in WoW.
    This is the first time I actually see people stop playing without thinking about it.
    A few years ago, they used to do random things on youtube or facebook for 20 mins, then log in and play a few hours.
    Now, they just don't think about playing wow because of how uninteresting it became apart from raids.

  5. #25
    Stood in the Fire
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    I'm enjoying Cataclysm, but I defintely liked WotLK way better. Why? Because, in my opinion:

    -Better theme. I like the northern theme and the music created WAY better than that for Cataclysm. The opening movie for WotLK just moves me a lot more emotionally than Cata's did.
    -Integral part of lore. While Deathwing has always been a major part of lore, for those that played the old Warcraft RTSes you actually got to see the fall of Arthas. So it felt more like the end to something you had been part of since the beginning
    -Ulduar. I haven't really raided in Cata, but Ulduar felt like it was the last big raid (correct me if I'm wrong) where the "heroic modes" were still organic. What I mean by organic is that you had to do something or not do something in game to trigger the fight. Not just flip a switch and boom you're in HM. Felt much more immersive for HMs that way.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by peedei View Post
    The fact is, cataclysm pissed off the entire player base
    No, it didn't. It's probably the least popular expansion, true, but to say that 100% of the player base hated it is absurdly false.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by peedei View Post
    Zarhym of course thinks differently: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...429?page=6#116



    The fact is, cataclysm pissed off the entire player base:

    - Made heroics too hard for bads and too long for casuals
    - Lack of heroics for variety
    - Dual lockouts so now raiders got half the things to do and 25man raiding got that much more unpopular
    - Community went into a vacuum without the necessity for smaller guilds to pair up for 25man content i.e. less
    server socializing
    - Smaller guilds were also eclipsed by guild levels as larger ones had it a lot easier gaining levels; most
    players just want to join high level guilds
    - The end game was not expanded upon/compensated for the increase in downtime
    - People stuck in cities waiting on instances 90% of the time without the above to alleviate
    - Mixed feelings about linear questing but phasing turned it from an MMO into a single player RPG
    - 1-84 has no significant learning curves because it's far too easy, dinging 85 with a lot of fresh noobitards,
    ruining most vets playing time

    I could go on, what do you think?

    Just throwing this out there... but cataclysm did not by ANY means "piss off the entire player base"

    flame at me all you want, but i'm happy with cata. along with all of my RL friends that i play with.

  8. #28
    I can certainly see your points. But there is a lot that has been done up better. 1-60 is actually FUN leveling. I have my best time leveling in those zones.

    End game content is MUCH better. Casuals can easily do firelands and hardcores do Heroic modes.

    Community went into Vacuum a long time ago. Ever since they made LFG.

    The reason why you feel there are a lack of heroics is because they made za zg into separate queues. Back in Wotlk, all ICC heroics were put in same queue. they made a mistake here. I dont care if its harder. Its random. Its suppose to give you something different. You cant really have random in a 2 instance rotation. Stupid logic.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Bitlovin View Post
    No, it didn't. It's probably the least popular expansion, true, but to say that 100% of the player base hated it is absurdly false.
    I find it to be a very common internet argument to use "all the people hate (insert whatever you hate)" therefore they should listen to all the people (just you).
    << What I Look like. ^^Shit I say.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by DeanyKong View Post
    People are vocal when they're mad. People are not vocal when they are content.

    The people saying that "Cataclysm was a failure" are an absolutely miniscule minority of the player base. It just so happens that they are the overwhelming majority of the forum and MMO Champion.
    This is true, I made my MMO account because I was getting farmed down by a Fury warrior back when they hit for 40k per swing in arenas.

  11. #31
    Pandaren Monk Xiphan's Avatar
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    The fact is, cataclysm pissed off the entire player base
    No.


    It's so far had its pros and its cons.

  12. #32
    Pit Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peedei View Post
    Zarhym of course thinks differently: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...429?page=6#116




    The fact is, cataclysm pissed off the entire player base:

    - Made heroics too hard for bads and too long for casuals
    - Lack of heroics for variety
    - Dual lockouts so now raiders got half the things to do and 25man raiding got that much more unpopular
    - Community went into a vacuum without the necessity for smaller guilds to pair up for 25man content i.e. less
    server socializing
    - Smaller guilds were also eclipsed by guild levels as larger ones had it a lot easier gaining levels; most
    players just want to join high level guilds
    - The end game was not expanded upon/compensated for the increase in downtime
    - People stuck in cities waiting on instances 90% of the time without the above to alleviate
    - Mixed feelings about linear questing but phasing turned it from an MMO into a single player RPG
    - 1-84 has no significant learning curves because it's far too easy, dinging 85 with a lot of fresh noobitards,
    ruining most vets playing time

    I could go on, what do you think?
    Agree with all you said, except last point, some classes were always too easy to lvl since day one, like paladins and warlocks and hunters, while (pre-heirlooms) some classes were very hard to lvl, like warrior and priest
    And I disagree about pissing of entire player base, I'm sure it didn't annoy everyone who plays wow
    Last edited by sam86; 2011-10-27 at 08:32 PM.
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    [...]
    -5 level incremental xpac (which we're getting more of for whatever reason)
    -scattered 80-85 zones which didn't help much of it feel all that new.
    -content recycling. Just not a fan of this at all, despite mechanics being different etc.
    -revamped quests being better, but each zone has no variation to it now.
    -minimal DW involvement throughout quests / instances in comparison to LK.
    -raiding was a big brick wall to some players, and making orbs BoP just exacerbated the situation. That slowed down the gear up process for a whole lot of players.
    [...]
    Comparatively, in my eyes:
    Pros related to your cons:
    -5 levels mean somewhat less time devoted to leveling, so in general for each char I level I feel like I get from NR to Cata endgame that much faster.
    -content recycling is fun, as I've always liked ZG/ZA and it was nice to revisit. It'd been long enough that I didn't feel sick of them still. Seeing SFK/DM in a new light was nice as well.
    -Zones considerably bigger story-wise. Vash'jir vs. Hyjal = "Do I want to fight inside a demigod, or alongside them?", Deepholm was a lot of fun, Uldum had a ton of character, enjoyed highlands as well. Comparatively, I'd be fine never stepping foot in BT, Icecrown, or Grizzly Hills again.
    -DW not showing up at every turn meant he didn't get the cartoon villain feel Arthas had. I thought the regular reminders that he and his lieutenants were against us were just fine.

    Different people want different things. Any time I stopped subbing during Cata was because of a general lull in MMO interest, not because Cata itself disappointed me. (Not that I don't have complaints) This is true of everyone I WoW with as well - sub rates had nothing to do with the expac, but were instead tied to WoW just getting on in years. Hard to drum up interest for another X tiers of raid encounters when my windsurfing gear is whispering sweet nothings in my ear.

    I think in general we should be cautious about attributing sub numbers directly to the relative quality of Cata. If the expacs had been identical but re-arranged, would LK or BC have seen flagging subscription numbers? Hard to say. I remember people burning out early in ICC, in ToC, in Naxx, in BT/Hyjal, in SSC/TK, during the Kara->25 transition, etc. etc. Heck, the removal of attunements was attributed (as I recall, anyways) directly to the amount of member churn guilds were seeing. Having to drag your new tank or healer through Vashj and KT killed a lot of raid nights, making it even more likely you'd lose members.

    Honestly, my feeling as a long-time subscriber is that WoW has always lost players at the same rate it's losing them now, but there are no longer people out there who haven't played WoW and still might. There aren't a ton of players to replenish the lost ones with, so we see sub rates slowing and now dropping.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by peedei View Post
    The fact is, cataclysm pissed off the entire player base:
    Wow seriously, talk for yourself mate... Your opinion isn't the same as "the entire player base" I wasn't pissed off by cataclysm....
    Last edited by lolo855; 2011-10-27 at 08:36 PM.

  15. #35
    Legendary! UncleSilas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dancing Turkey View Post
    I loved the questing personally, the story was rich, the quests were fun, I loved Firelands dailies (I am an avid hater of dailies) but Firelands made it so you done them, and could buy your items with gold, no *have to* farm for months and months to get currency to buy items, rated BG's the new Zones were amazingly well designed and the artwork as always immense, the redo of all the lowbie zones and quests , were amazing, I've had so much fun levelling many new toons through these zones and feeling like it was a new game, The dungeon's for me were also alot of fun, again the artwork in these places just astounding, archaeology (while not perfect yet) was a fresh and interesting addition and I hope to see it keep evolving.Transmogging coming in soon also bringing life to old raids (people wanting to actually go back and do them now).

    And probably alot more I have forgotten at the moment, but all in all there was plenty to keep me having fun, just not as much as TBC or WOTLK, though I do blame my real life for my time restraints these days more than the game.
    Eh 41 days of farming to finish the firelands dailies, that's an insanely long grind with long intervals between unlocks. I've done almost every daily grind in WoW, and that was one of the most frustrating. The artwork on the new zones differed greatly, from Deepholms clearly amazing production, to the pedestrian nature of Hyjal.

    The new questing was arguably made redundant by the fact you gained so much XP so quick that you often ended up zone skipping, that's a technical issue mostly though. The quest lines in Cata were pretty damn good, but while it was a good story there lacked some quality of the epic. There was never a point where you struggled, nothing that made you cringe with difficulty. Again, pretty pedestrian.

    The dungeons were mostly unoriginal, many borrowed old art assets or were "renewed". The were plagued with problems early on, mainly the unusual difficulty fluctuations. Archaeology was almost a total wreck of a profession. It was a blatant time sink with little to offer in genuine rewards, its original intention would have made it fantastic! Path of titans etc, but sadly it never was to be.

    I didn't hate this expansion, but it has had so many technical difficulties, problems with flip flopping by devs and generally a feeling of a need to get it finished that I can't say it really thrilled me. For reference, I'd give it a 6/10.

  16. #36
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    I agree that we're to using the extremes too much. "Failure" is a huge overstatement. I've played those crappy movie-based games and I've seen Superman 64 in action. I know what a "failure" is. Cata was just...a different expansion. Most of the fun was found in Old World rather than the level cap. It still was a solid experience though, but had a lot less to do than the other expansions.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by peedei View Post
    The fact is, cataclysm pissed off the entire player base
    Woah shit when did I stop being a player?

  18. #38
    Stood in the Fire Omarian's Avatar
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    I think you're about quite right.

  19. #39
    I look at Cata as a taste of things to come. It wasn't as 'perfect' as the other expanions, and felt quite hurried; like they couldn't wait to get it over with. (Yes, I'm aware of the fact they said it was going to be a short expansion, but beyond that, it felt rushed.)

    MY Pros and Cons:

    Pros:
    Revamped graphics: The water looks amazing!
    1-60 question is freaking amazing now. The quests aren't all just 'kill X, gather X'. Or if they are, you're doing it in a harvest reaper, or a vehicle or something!
    Again with the graphics: I think a lot of the new armor/weapon models look great. Definitely blew TBC out of the water.
    PvP became fun again at cap level. It's not really possible to get one-shot anymore (though it apparently does still happen.)
    Only 5 levels. I actually see this as a pro. Making it 5 means less time leveling. When TBC came out, I was excited about hitting 70. When Wrath came out, it felt like a chore.
    Flight paths. Not sure if you guys noticed, but instead of having to hoof it to a new area, as you leveled, more and more flight paths would open up for you. Real time saver. They also added a freaking truck load of flight paths.

    Cons:
    Archaeology. Great idea, poor execution in my opinion. Once you have everything, there's no incentive to keep doing it. Some of the races had little to nothing to gather in the first place, and they were the ones that always flooded your map.
    Inflated stats. I got really tired of seeing 300 to, say, expertise only to realize it gives you like a whopping 1% to your actual expertise. (Exaggerating, but you get the point.) So glad they're going to tone down the stats in MoP.
    Rehashed content. I don't think anything more needs to be said.
    Again, it felt rushed. It seemed like every time they released a new tier, they nerfed the previous content so more people could experience it. I'm sure they did this in Wrath to a point, but they kind of take it to extremes in Cata. Also, I don't raid, so I can't really make much more of a comment on this; this is just coming from what I've read here on MMO-Champ.
    Cata didn't really add anything new, it just changed up what we already had. I wouldn't consider Cata to be an expansion, more like a content update.
    Being able to fly in Azeroth. Flame me if you want, but this kind of trivializes a lot of the content there. It removes the 'exploration' part of leveling. It also makes invading Stormwind and Org a hell of a lot easier :-P

    Overall, I'm glad Cata is coming to an end. MoP seems to be bringing a lot of good content with it, so I hope it makes up for Cata's failings.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by wariofan1 View Post
    Remember Wotlk? During its time it was flamed to hell, many people talk about it like its some kind of legend now a' days. The ones who are satisfied (like me) don't speak out loud very often, while if you're not satisfied with something you often go out and share your opinions, its the mindset of man, simple as that. Personally I love Cataclysm, and I enjoy every moment of it.



    Do your maths, 1 million players out of 12 million ain't 15-20%.
    Thanks for pointing that out. We know that the subs in China grew whilst the subs that pay the most in NA/EU declined, the overall loss for Q1 and Q2 was 900k. Best estimates put the NA/EU sub numbers at somewhere around the 5 million mark, so right back at ya, do your maths.

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