Thread: Shadow's Damage

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  1. #1

    Shadow's Damage

    Now, I keep up with world of logs somewhat, and I know shadow is not in a bad place right now. Infact, it's overall the top dps. I'm plenty aware of that. In 5mans they seem to be really well off as well.

    Now, My priest lacks gear. I'm plenty aware she's far behind what she should be, as I don't raid at all right now. She's in full 353. Now...my issue is, I have 9 other characters in similar gear levels, All of which do 20-25k dps. My shadow is lucky to break 11k though. I'm hit capped, 99% up time on dots, and Mblast on CD. Is there something I'm missing here that would drop dps by that much? I do find I'm always running out of mana as well..Should I SWeath on cd?

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ar/Aoki/simple

    Just relogged in pve gear.

  2. #2
    Shadow is like every other multi-dotting class in firelands. Make sure to dot everything and your dps will be fine but on single target dont expect to come out on top.

  3. #3
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    Post your talents and glyphs for PVE rather than PVP.
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  4. #4
    WOL parses are really what you need. How are you managing ES? When are you using SF and DAA? Despite what isadorr said, you should expect to do perfectly fine on a single target fight. You don't need multiple targets to really shine. Also, what type of content are you doing, and what buffs do you have? Having the right buffs/debuffs available will help a lot, too.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Shadow is like every other multi-dotting class in firelands. Make sure to dot everything and your dps will be fine but on single target dont expect to come out on top.
    Don't expect to be anything but top dps in single target fights if you have the right guild o.O

  6. #6
    PvP talents and glyphs, DMC:V not reforged to haste, lacking enchants and gems. Based on that your shadow gear (if you're using different gear for shadow and disc) is probably not reforged correctly.

    As you said you don't raid on your priest: As a dot class it really depends on the rest of your group how much dps you can do on trash in 5 mans, you still should be able to do more than 11k in the Zandalari heroics though, especially on bosses. You said you're hit capped. Is that the raid or dungeon hit cap? Since that's a difference of 11% (6% in dungeons, 17% in raids).

    I can't comment on your play style without any logs.

  7. #7
    High Overlord Passive Apathy's Avatar
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    I feel the same way about Affliction, no matter how much I try, no ammount of haunt/corruption/UA/shadowflame/BoD uptime I have, I struggle to maintian anything above 13-14k dps in a raid setting with 358 ilvl and 17% hit.

    Not totally related but the specs share a similar reliance on dots for damage. I'm glad I'm not limited to a single class because my warlock is the bane of all my dps... I manage 23k on my mage and 21k on my dk with like 365 ilvl.

  8. #8
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passive Apathy View Post
    I feel the same way about Affliction, no matter how much I try, no ammount of haunt/corruption/UA/shadowflame/BoD uptime I have, I struggle to maintian anything above 13-14k dps in a raid setting with 358 ilvl and 17% hit.

    Not totally related but the specs share a similar reliance on dots for damage. I'm glad I'm not limited to a single class because my warlock is the bane of all my dps... I manage 23k on my mage and 21k on my dk with like 365 ilvl.
    Then it's you, my lock alt has around the same item level as you and as affliction can pull 22-28k in multi-dot fights in firelands the other week. You are having more ease on your dk and mage because those are very low skill cap classes, compared to shadow and affliction which are the highest skill cap classes in the game. It takes far more effort to do good dps on shadow/affliction than it does playing a mage (of any spec, but especcially arcane).

    Here let me list the priorities for some of these specs:
    Arcane Mage
    1. Arcane Blast
    2. goto 1

    Death Knight
    1. Roll Face Across Keyboard
    2. goto 1

    Affliction
    1. Maintain half a dozen debuffs and buffs and a fistful of dots on 1-3 targets simultaneously.

    Shadow
    1. Maintain some extremely poorly designed buffs/debuffs and a few dots across 1-5 targets simultaneously while juggling mana cooldowns (though the noob spriests will jump on me saying they dont have mana issues this tier because they a) have 2p12 and b) dont multidot properly).
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    Then it's you, my lock alt has around the same item level as you and as affliction can pull 22-28k in multi-dot fights in firelands the other week. You are having more ease on your dk and mage because those are very low skill cap classes, compared to shadow and affliction which are the highest skill cap classes in the game. It takes far more effort to do good dps on shadow/affliction than it does playing a mage (of any spec, but especcially arcane).

    Here let me list the priorities for some of these specs:
    Arcane Mage
    1. Arcane Blast
    2. goto 1

    Death Knight
    1. Roll Face Across Keyboard
    2. goto 1

    Affliction
    1. Maintain half a dozen debuffs and buffs and a fistful of dots on 1-3 targets simultaneously.

    Shadow
    1. Maintain some extremely poorly designed buffs/debuffs and a few dots across 1-5 targets simultaneously while juggling mana cooldowns (though the noob spriests will jump on me saying they dont have mana issues this tier because they a) have 2p12 and b) dont multidot properly).
    Shadow and affliction are the highest skillcap'd classes in game? Demo locks and sub rogues... hell even destruction would like to argue a little.

    Also to the op, don't reference WOL for average dps.. there are buffs like alysrazor and heroic domo that make things different. Also things like dark intent help much.
    Last edited by Gohzerlock; 2011-10-28 at 12:05 AM.

  10. #10
    Shadow has a decent ramp time now each time you cast mind blast (as long as you are keeping it on cooldown while keeping near 100% uptime of es) your dps will go up so in shorter fights like most 5 man bosses your dps might be lower then those classes with higher burst for example an arc mage. My dps tends to get higher and higher the longer the fight is. Now it will spike with hero and cooldowns but overall dps gets higher as the fights progress

  11. #11
    Check out askmrrobot.com and see what he tells you.

    From looking at your gear (which might be your healing gear?) you're reforged and gemmed incorrectly.

    If you never plan on raiding with your priest, set the hard cap on hit for 6%.

    Your shadow spec is also a PVP spec that is going to lose some dps.

  12. #12
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gohzerlock View Post
    Shadow and affliction are the highest skillcap'd classes in game? Demo locks and sub rogues... hell even destruction would like to argue a little.

    Also to the op, don't reference WOL for average dps.. there are buffs like alysrazor and heroic domo that make things different. Also things like dark intent help much.
    LoL - just no. Demo Locks? I'm sorry what's hard about demo? your a single target spec where you spam shadow bolts 70% of the time and keep up a couple dots/debuffs with extraordinarily long durations (or self-refreshing from your dps rotation).

    Sub rogues? sub rogues are the easiest rogue spec - where are you getting this idea of sub being hard. Here take a look:

    1. Is Shadowdance up?
    a) Shadowdance
    b) Ambushspam
    2. Finisherspam

    Combat is significantly harder than sub just because you need to manage Bandit's Guile which is horridly designed and finicky - but that alone makes it significantly harder than sub. Mutilate I'd say is marginally harder than Combat because its the only spec still dependent on energy really - and that means concepts like Floating (not attacking when you can to save for upcoming SnD refreshes or the like, in addition to everything the others consider as well).

    I assume you just threw destro out there hoping I'd know nothing about any other class than Shadow - so I won't jump down your neck on that one - but seriously - destro is faceroll. Apply Bane of Havok to one target every like 2 minutes. Single target dps the adjacent target with one filler spell (Incinerate) and 3 situation/CD spells (Chaos, Conflag, Soul Fire) and roll 1 dot.

    Of all the ones you listed, the only one that really changes depending on the scale of the fight is Combat, and all it does is

    - Am I near 2+ targets? then Blade Flurry
    - Am I only near 1 target? turn BF off

    That's got Nothing on what dot classes have to consider. Boomkins are harder than all the specs you listed, but not as hard as shadow/affliction.
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2011-10-28 at 06:53 PM.
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  13. #13
    The best stats for a Shadow priest is haste > Mastery > Crit (In T12), in T11 it's Crit over mastery. You don't want to reforge haste into anything else, unless you hit 21-22% if you run with a lock who gives you dark intent.

    The way some shadow priests open (usually most raiding) would be a Shadow word pain > Mind flay x2-3 (3 if you're using the int/mastery stacking trinket from fire lands). Then this will give you the buff that increases dot damage by 10%, and a 10 stack of 39 mastery and hopefully given you a shadow orb (90% of the time it procs). Then you Mind blast > Vamp > DP > Mindflay cycle.

    If you got mana issues, then you can use shadow word death in your cycle. You can use it every cooldown, the dps between not using it, and using it wouldn't be that much. But you would be on 100% mana if you used it every CD. But it's usually best to save it for the 25% execute mark.

    Remember to use Dark Angel from the disc try, this is 25% mana, and a damage increase, on a 75 second CD. This is the main key to keeping your mana up high. Also with Shadow Fiend every 3-5 mins (depending on how often Mind Flay crits to reduce the cooldown).

    Check youtube for a video guide on shadow priests.

    ---------- Post added 2011-10-28 at 08:05 PM ----------

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbmtL...ure=plpp_video

    Here

  14. #14
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    I should explain why Affliction is difficult - because if you are playing destro/demo and think thats hard but affliction isnt - you likely arent even approaching the full complexity of affliction.

    Imagine a 1 target scenario (baleroc, patchwerk) - the complexity in all 3 lock specs and shadow are roughly similar (though shadow and affliction are still more punishing for mistakes or inefficiencies, but marginally so). Now consider a two target fight, a destro lock would apply Bane of Havok once every 2 minutes, Elements every 5 minutes, and Immolate when they feel like it (because its not a huge dpet to interrupt their rotation for). Demo would apply Elements and corruption to proc more shadow bolts. Affliction would roll 5+ debuffs on both targets while keeping up 3/3 Shadow Embrace on both targets. Shadow would roll fewer dots but would contend with a much higher punishment for inefficiency because of the higher dpet on shadow spells.

    Look at this way, if Immolate falls off the second target for destro, they lose some dps - but not much. If corruption falls off the second target for demo - they lose a marginal amount of dot damage and more importantly their nightfall proc, but still not much. Affliction is most likely to lose their Shadow Embrace stacks because its very short duration, and if they do - they lose 15% of their dps on that target and now need to weave in 3 more Bolts on the same target while continuing to monitor dot refreshes and Shadow Embrace stacks on both targets still. That's a big issue because it usually means they end up playing catch up for up to the next minute.

    Shadow only needs to roll dots on two targets, but failing to just refresh those dots at precisely the right time is probably a comparable dps loss to completely neglecting a secondary dot for destro/demo - if shadow casts Mind Blast at a target other than their triple dotted target (and they cast MB every 6.5-7 seconds) they lose 25% of the damage off their primary source of damage, and if they don't have an orb when they need to apply dots - they have to apply the dots anyways and then likely recast over the existing dot to update it for Shadow Empowerment - to make this worse - the more targets they dot the less mind flaying they do and the less orbs they proc, but they need orbs to make the dots they apply worth cleaving with.

    Now think about what changes for 3 targets for each of these specs, for destro and demo - nearly nothing - and failing to consider the additional targets has a small dps change for these specs. Affliction just adds a whole third target to their mix - applying 5+ debuffs to all 3 targets, and keeping 3/3 Shadow Embrace on 3 targets. Shadow similarly needs to scale to 3 targets.

    With 4 targets, Affliction just ignores one of them, 3 is the limit for what even an amazing afflock can maintain. Shadow gives the same consideration to the fourth target that they do to the second and third. With a 5th target, Shadow again gives the same consideration to the 5th that they did to 2 through 4.

    TL;DR - while the complexity of dot classes is perhaps marginally different to any other class in single target, non-dot focused classes do not scale in complexity beyond 2 targets (some not even beyond 1 target, like arcane and feral) - while the complexity of dot-centric classes leaps significantly for every additional target added.
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2011-10-28 at 07:23 PM.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    TL;DR - while the complexity of dot classes is perhaps marginally different to any other class in single target, non-dot focused classes do not scale in complexity beyond 2 targets (some not even beyond 1 target, like arcane and feral) - while the complexity of dot-centric classes leaps significantly for every additional target added.
    Are you done hijacking threads to justify yourself? This thread is about helping a shadow priest increase their dps, not about arguing some petty nuances in dealing dps.

    On Topic:
    I was going to say I saw no mention of Dark Archangel in the OP, that could be contributing a bit to your OoM and lack of DPS. Also make sure you pump out those Shadowfiends on bosses, I believe they benefit from your haste so if Lust is popped that is the ideal time, but I am not 100% certain.

  16. #16
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohmbre View Post
    I was going to say I saw no mention of Dark Archangel in the OP, that could be contributing a bit to your OoM and lack of DPS. Also make sure you pump out those Shadowfiends on bosses, I believe they benefit from your haste so if Lust is popped that is the ideal time, but I am not 100% certain.
    I'm sure he's using DAA, if he isn't though that's obviously something - but its only a fraction of what's wrong and Xorz already responded to much of what is wrong (all of which is readily available in Kilee's guide at the top of the forums) and why we can't answer about what is wrong with their playstyle until we see a log - but really just fixing the OP's spec, glyph, enchants, gems and learning the basics of our dps priority from any shadow pve guide will do far far more than a log will for them at this point - and they haven't responded yet with that stuff fixed and more detailed information/questions.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    I should explain why Affliction is difficult - because if you are playing destro/demo and think thats hard but affliction isnt - you likely arent even approaching the full complexity of affliction.

    Imagine a 1 target scenario (baleroc, patchwerk) - the complexity in all 3 lock specs and shadow are roughly similar (though shadow and affliction are still more punishing for mistakes or inefficiencies, but marginally so). Now consider a two target fight, a destro lock would apply Bane of Havok once every 2 minutes, Elements every 5 minutes, and Immolate when they feel like it (because its not a huge dpet to interrupt their rotation for). Demo would apply Elements and corruption to proc more shadow bolts. Affliction would roll 5+ debuffs on both targets while keeping up 3/3 Shadow Embrace on both targets. Shadow would roll fewer dots but would contend with a much higher punishment for inefficiency because of the higher dpet on shadow spells.

    Look at this way, if Immolate falls off the second target for destro, they lose some dps - but not much. If corruption falls off the second target for demo - they lose a marginal amount of dot damage and more importantly their nightfall proc, but still not much. Affliction is most likely to lose their Shadow Embrace stacks because its very short duration, and if they do - they lose 15% of their dps on that target and now need to weave in 3 more Bolts on the same target while continuing to monitor dot refreshes and Shadow Embrace stacks on both targets still. That's a big issue because it usually means they end up playing catch up for up to the next minute.

    Shadow only needs to roll dots on two targets, but failing to just refresh those dots at precisely the right time is probably a comparable dps loss to completely neglecting a secondary dot for destro/demo - if shadow casts Mind Blast at a target other than their triple dotted target (and they cast MB every 6.5-7 seconds) they lose 25% of the damage off their primary source of damage, and if they don't have an orb when they need to apply dots - they have to apply the dots anyways and then likely recast over the existing dot to update it for Shadow Empowerment - to make this worse - the more targets they dot the less mind flaying they do and the less orbs they proc, but they need orbs to make the dots they apply worth cleaving with.

    Now think about what changes for 3 targets for each of these specs, for destro and demo - nearly nothing - and failing to consider the additional targets has a small dps change for these specs. Affliction just adds a whole third target to their mix - applying 5+ debuffs to all 3 targets, and keeping 3/3 Shadow Embrace on 3 targets. Shadow similarly needs to scale to 3 targets.

    With 4 targets, Affliction just ignores one of them, 3 is the limit for what even an amazing afflock can maintain. Shadow gives the same consideration to the fourth target that they do to the second and third. With a 5th target, Shadow again gives the same consideration to the 5th that they did to 2 through 4.

    TL;DR - while the complexity of dot classes is perhaps marginally different to any other class in single target, non-dot focused classes do not scale in complexity beyond 2 targets (some not even beyond 1 target, like arcane and feral) - while the complexity of dot-centric classes leaps significantly for every additional target added.
    Very well put, thumbs up.

    Posting just to say you agree is spam... try to add something to the convo when you post please. -Arlee
    Last edited by Arlee; 2011-10-31 at 03:19 PM.

  18. #18
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    Shadow only needs to roll dots on two targets, but failing to just refresh those dots at precisely the right time is probably a comparable dps loss to completely neglecting a secondary dot for destro/demo - if shadow casts Mind Blast at a target other than their triple dotted target (and they cast MB every 6.5-7 seconds) they lose 25% of the damage off their primary source of damage, and if they don't have an orb when they need to apply dots - they have to apply the dots anyways and then likely recast over the existing dot to update it for Shadow Empowerment - to make this worse - the more targets they dot the less mind flaying they do and the less orbs they proc, but they need orbs to make the dots they apply worth cleaving with.
    This part is wrong. Dark Flames is a personal buff, not a debuff.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    Sub rogues? sub rogues are the easiest rogue spec - where are you getting this idea of sub being hard. Here take a look:

    1. Is Shadowdance up?
    a) Shadowdance
    b) Ambushspam
    2. Finisherspam
    I didn't know this was 3.1.

    Also: Demo warlocks pet and cooldown management is significantly harder then anything affliction has to deal with, multi-dot or not.

    you are just spouting tons of misinformation in this thread..

    As for the topic, i extremely doubt the OPs dot uptime is sitting at 99% if his dps is only 11k. Shadow does have very low damage at low gear levels, but it is not that low. It should also be noted that shadow does not preform well on fights without multiple targets to dot, or massive haste boosts such as Alyz

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by hikamiro View Post
    I didn't know this was 3.1.

    Also: Demo warlocks pet and cooldown management is significantly harder then anything affliction has to deal with, multi-dot or not.

    you are just spouting tons of misinformation in this thread..

    As for the topic, i extremely doubt the OPs dot uptime is sitting at 99% if his dps is only 11k. Shadow does have very low damage at low gear levels, but it is not that low. It should also be noted that shadow does not preform well on fights without multiple targets to dot, or massive haste boosts such as Alyz
    What are you smoking? Shadow priest damage on a single target is still good. Demo is hard? really?
    Last edited by Elicium; 2011-10-29 at 06:06 PM.

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