Thread: Shadow's Damage

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  1. #21
    With 353 gear doing 14k on a raid dummy isnt too bad. We are pretty dependant on other caster buffs to do much more, but in ZA/ZG you should be doing 17-18 or so. VT eveyrthing and sear, its not hard

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by hikamiro View Post
    I didn't know this was 3.1.

    Also: Demo warlocks pet and cooldown management is significantly harder then anything affliction has to deal with, multi-dot or not.

    you are just spouting tons of misinformation in this thread..

    As for the topic, i extremely doubt the OPs dot uptime is sitting at 99% if his dps is only 11k. Shadow does have very low damage at low gear levels, but it is not that low. It should also be noted that shadow does not preform well on fights without multiple targets to dot, or massive haste boosts such as Alyz
    I disagree, I do very well on single target fights. I might also mention that on alysrazor I am getting better and have reached 65k dps for the overall dps on the fight. If 65k dps is not a very significant amount of dps on that fight for people in air.... I don't know how it could be much better.
    Last edited by Wondark; 2011-10-29 at 06:39 PM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondark View Post
    I disagree, I do very well on single target fights. I might also mention that on alysrazor I am getting better and have reached 65k dps for the overall dps on the fight. If 65k dps is not a very significant amount of dps on that fight for people in air.... I don't know how it could be much better.
    I said that shadow doesn't do well on single target fights WITHOUT massive haste boosts or multi-target.

    We do great on Alyz, (I'd say its above fire mage, because all the high fire mage logs are obtained by spreading combust to targets that don't need it) I typically pull around 80k on that fight. But, overall our single target damage is low when compared to other classes. If you do not experience this in your raid group, then great! that just means you're a better player then others in your group.

  4. #24
    I can't help but think the people in this thread that say Shadow's damage on single targets is low don't actually play a Spriest. Or they play it poorly. My damage on fights like Domo and Baelroc is always 20-25k, and I run in a 10 man, with out DI and sometimes with out a lot of caster buffs if we're having a bad week. It only goes up on multi-target fights like Shannox and Beth. And don't get me started on Alsyrazor.

    Anyway, back to the OP: Do you have any logs to show us? Or can you at least give us an idea of what you're doing? Your DPS if definitely low, but we can't help you fix it if we don't know what you're doing wrong.

  5. #25
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wondark View Post
    I disagree, I do very well on single target fights. I might also mention that on alysrazor I am getting better and have reached 65k dps for the overall dps on the fight. If 65k dps is not a very significant amount of dps on that fight for people in air.... I don't know how it could be much better.
    It really depends on your gear, my best attempts approach 90k but I'm probably in much better gear than you, and get DI and Tricks when the tanks dont need it (and when we started, FM as well - but our mage does Alys as fire now because he spends a good portion of time in the air too since our ground dps is so high). With that said, my shadow apprentice does about 60-70k as well usually - and some of the differences between her dps and mine are:
    - she sometimes forgets to refresh dots after Alysra's Razor
    - I continue full dps during tornado phase where she used to focus on dodging them (post-nerf she continues dps as well)
    - I dispersion/rocket boot to pick up the last ring that spawns before the burn phase to maximize my buff time, she doesn't have rocketboots
    - once I have 25 rings I dive-bomb and VT the big adds to help the tanks out
    - volcanic potion during burn phase (and obviously start floating wings after the second firestorm to make sure you have it up for burn phase as well)
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2011-10-30 at 10:40 PM.
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshimiko View Post
    Now, I keep up with world of logs somewhat, and I know shadow is not in a bad place right now. Infact, it's overall the top dps. I'm plenty aware of that. In 5mans they seem to be really well off as well.

    Now, My priest lacks gear. I'm plenty aware she's far behind what she should be, as I don't raid at all right now. She's in full 353. Now...my issue is, I have 9 other characters in similar gear levels, All of which do 20-25k dps. My shadow is lucky to break 11k though. I'm hit capped, 99% up time on dots, and Mblast on CD. Is there something I'm missing here that would drop dps by that much? I do find I'm always running out of mana as well..Should I SWeath on cd?

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ar/Aoki/simple

    Just relogged in pve gear.
    If you were truly maintaining 99% dot uptime and keeping MB on CD perfectly you'd be doing a lot more dps than 11k. Just because you think your DoT uptime is 99% and you MB every 7-7.5 seconds doesn't mean you are. You need to prove that fact to yourself through combat logs or analysing recount (or some other similar mod).

    I've helped many priests improve their DPS and you'd be amazed how many of them swear black n blue about how their rotation is fine but when I get them to show me on a dummy they are missing large amounts of DoT uptime.

    The advice I've given every person, forget about your DPS figure. Understand what the theoretical maximum number of casts you can complete and go see if you can reach that theoretical number. Dummy's are fine to test out if your cast rotation is where it should be, it's also good practice to get muscle memory into casting your spells without delay. It's also good to critque your UI and ensure you are able to intake information quickly and concisely.

    After you prove to yourself that you get dots up 99% of the time, MB is cast no worse than once every 7.5 seconds and 30% to 32% of your source of damage is MF, then you can start discussing more advanced ways to maximise your damage. (On a side note, if your MF only makes up 25% of your damage you are missing out on a lot of MF ticks, make sure when you need to cast MFs back to back that you cast the 2nd MF before the 1st MF finishes).

  7. #27
    Late to the party but really there is no need for people to discuss how other classes do dps and what class/specs are "easier" or "harder".

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by hikamiro View Post
    It should also be noted that shadow does not preform well on fights without multiple targets to dot, or massive haste boosts such as Alyz
    If this is happening to you, you're hiding bad playing behind multitarget fights. Don't generalize; look at WoL if you want to see how good Spriests do on single target.

    Back to the OP:

    I disagree with anyone saying you should be pulling more at that ilvl. Your issue has nothing to do with your ilvl, because DPSing in PVP gear that isn't gemmed, enchanted, reforged or anything properly means your DPS is going to suck. You have 1k haste, that's disgusting.

    Perhaps I came in when you had logged out in your PVP gear (again), but your spec is wrong too. You're missing Improved SW: P and Shadowy Apparitions for PVP talents, and that's a DPS loss. You're not using Glyph of MF, another DPS loss. You're using wrath enchants and not even bothering to gem your shoulders.

    Your DPS sucks because you didn't even try to gear properly or learn the proper setup for PVE Shadow.

    My only recommendation is to read the stickied guide, something you probably ignored completely or didn't even notice when you came onto the forum. Every bit of advice we'd give you in this thread is nicely summed up in there.

    Once you've actually done that, feel free to ask more questions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Purpleisbetter View Post
    Power Torrent, Volcano and Theralion proc'ed, dots just refreshed. Everyone dies. Just a tank and a boss with around 200k hp. Everyone in vt yells "omg we failed omg omg" and you "don't worry amigos, my dots are steamrolling!". Boss dies while you'd say "Enjoy your loots" with a lot of purple awesomness spilling thru your voice. Just happend yesterday.

    Seriously, i thought i'd reroll warlock for 4.2, but that was the sign that i'm purple inside and i can't reroll. never.

  9. #29
    What a load of BS - so cause your a dot class you will never be good at single target dps?

  10. #30
    Mechagnome soulyouth's Avatar
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    Shadow is fine, atm most fights in FL we are top 5.

    The reason we are low on the 1 patchwork type fight is because most shadow priests are on soaking duty doing whole crystals.

  11. #31
    The Patient Muschi's Avatar
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    Here's my honest take on things.

    Nothing in this game is essentially hard, really. I'm not trying to sound elitist here but really, nothing is hard once you look at it from another perspecitve. Yes, some classes and specs might have fewer abilities to handle in combat.

    About DPS, it's ONLY about what I'm going to type now. Nothing else.
    Cast as many spells as you possibly can as fast as you possibly can. That's all there is to it. Learn what spell is worth using when and do it fast and often. There, top DPS.

    About bossfights, there's nothing hard about it. Everything's designed to be beaten, always keep this in mind when you think "ahw man this is too hard". EVERYTHING in this game is designed to be beaten. You can always beat everything. It's really that simple.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Gaga View Post
    Mages are balanced. It's just that they aren't balanced for Azeroth.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Muschi View Post
    About bossfights, there's nothing hard about it. Everything's designed to be beaten, always keep this in mind when you think "ahw man this is too hard". EVERYTHING in this game is designed to be beaten. You can always beat everything. It's really that simple.
    Except for pre-nerf C'thun, which was proven to be mathematically impossible to beat in current gear.

    But you are right about casting as many spells as possible. You'd be shocked how many wasted GCDs you have during a boss fight. Part of that is learning the fight so you know when to refresh a DOT maybe 2-3 seconds early to avoid having it fall off while you have to run somewhere. The other part is paying attention to your DOTs and CDs, and knowing which spell to cast when.

  13. #33
    Shadow
    1. Maintain some extremely poorly designed buffs/debuffs and a few dots across 1-5 targets simultaneously while juggling mana cooldowns (though the noob spriests will jump on me saying they dont have mana issues this tier because they a) have 2p12 and b) dont multidot properly).
    I'm not sure how you're having mana problems to be honest. Yes, the 2 piece T12 helps a lot with that but in all honesty I haven't had mana issues since early BWD. Multi dotting can drain your mana pretty quickly, but really I can only think of 5 bosses in cataclysm that actually benefit from multidotting to the extent that is worth doing (Nef, Halfus, V+T, Council and Rhyolith). All of those are 2 target multidot fights if you do them properly, none should leave you oom due to the aoe damage recharging your mana constantly. Also, to be honest if you have more than 3 targets you might as well be mind searing instead I certainly never bother multidotting with more targets than that as that sort of group is invariably on trash anyway.

  14. #34
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bypass View Post
    I'm not sure how you're having mana problems to be honest. Yes, the 2 piece T12 helps a lot with that but in all honesty I haven't had mana issues since early BWD. Multi dotting can drain your mana pretty quickly, but really I can only think of 5 bosses in cataclysm that actually benefit from multidotting to the extent that is worth doing (Nef, Halfus, V+T, Council and Rhyolith). All of those are 2 target multidot fights if you do them properly, none should leave you oom due to the aoe damage recharging your mana constantly. Also, to be honest if you have more than 3 targets you might as well be mind searing instead I certainly never bother multidotting with more targets than that as that sort of group is invariably on trash anyway.
    Magmaw - adds spawn, which makes this sometimes a three target cleave
    Omnomnom Defense System - 2 targets through the entire fight, depending on your guild dot classes will cleave
    Nefarian - Onyxia / Nef in P1, adds / Nef in p2
    Conclave - depends on platform
    Alakir - adds in p2
    Halfus - 4 dragons + halfus + aoe whelps
    Valiona and Theralion - two dragons the entire fight
    Ascendant Council - two ascendants the entire fight
    Cho'gall - fire/shadow adds through the entire fight, forgotten one adds + cho'gall, cho'gall + blood aoe
    Sinestra - drakes, dragonkin, eggs, sinestra in p2
    Shannox - in normal 3 target cleave
    Beth'ilac - spinners + drone cleave is well over 5 targets
    Rhyolith - left leg, right leg, spark of rhyolith + fragment aoe
    Alysrazor - alysrazor + 2 birds (forget their names) if you are in the air, or 2 birds + flame druids if you are on the ground
    Majordomo - pre-nerf you would dot cleave the adds but their health is pitiful now and the melee are geared enough to blow them up unaided
    Ragnaros - p2 rag + add aoe, second transition rag + 2 big adds

    So there are like 4 fights this expansion where dot classes are not target swapping while maintaining dots on at least one other target.
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  15. #35
    Magmaw - adds spawn, which makes this sometimes a three target cleave
    Omnomnom Defense System - 2 targets through the entire fight, depending on your guild dot classes will cleave
    Nefarian - Onyxia / Nef in P1, adds / Nef in p2
    Conclave - depends on platform
    Alakir - adds in p2
    Halfus - 4 dragons + halfus + aoe whelps
    Valiona and Theralion - two dragons the entire fight
    Ascendant Council - two ascendants the entire fight
    Cho'gall - fire/shadow adds through the entire fight, forgotten one adds + cho'gall, cho'gall + blood aoe
    Sinestra - drakes, dragonkin, eggs, sinestra in p2
    Shannox - in normal 3 target cleave
    Beth'ilac - spinners + drone cleave is well over 5 targets
    Rhyolith - left leg, right leg, spark of rhyolith + fragment aoe
    Alysrazor - alysrazor + 2 birds (forget their names) if you are in the air, or 2 birds + flame druids if you are on the ground
    Majordomo - pre-nerf you would dot cleave the adds but their health is pitiful now and the melee are geared enough to blow them up unaided
    Ragnaros - p2 rag + add aoe, second transition rag + 2 big adds

    Nefarian - I mentioned . Damaging the adds in p1 is pointless and even if you were you should be using mind sear.
    Conclave - If you are on the platform with adds you should be using mind sear not multi dotting. There are far too many of them.
    Al akir - Shadow priests should not be used to kill the adds in p2 because you need to kill them at predictable set intervals. DOTs make that really hard to time correctly. You could use mind spike/blast but really its better to have a class with better burst do them.
    Halfus - mentioned but if you're aoeing the whelps with dots again, should be using mind sear.
    V+T mentioned.
    Council - mentioned.
    Chogal - the fire adds need to be killed way quicker than can be achieved by dotting them. And the blood aoe is not done through dots - mind sear again, but the forgotten ones are dotted also, missed that one.
    Sinestra - The eggs are the only target at the time so I don't consider that multidotting whatsoever, the 1 dragon add that spawns and the dragonkin add can be dotted at the same time as sinestra but realistically you're only likely to be near enough to sinestra and the drake to make that worthwhile. The dragonkin dies so quickly that dots aren't worthwhile.
    Shannox - I haven't done this normal mode in a long time but even then we didn't kill the dogs, Dotting them in heroic is pure dps padding.
    Beth - Spinners don't live long enough in a decent group for dots to be effective for the most part. I find that spike and blast tends to get better returns.
    Rhyolith - mentioned although again, fragment aoe is mind sear.
    Alysrazor - I'm always in the air on one target so can't comment on this one.
    Ragnaros - Is an unusual one. The egg adds are obviously mind seared but the sons of flame depend on whether or not you're in 25 man or 10. In 25 man they have a great deal more health and are stunned and knocked back more meaning that multi dotting is indeed the best overall damage strategy. On 10 man however you have significantly fewer control abilities in the raid and the adds have much less health. This means that in 10 man spike/blast is the best way to go.

    So really to my original list of

    Nef, Halfus, V+T, Council and Rhyolith you could add maybe chogall alysrazor and ragnaros.
    The point still stands though that ALL of these bosses have enough aoe damage on them to easily cover the mana costs of multidotting whatever adds pop up without any problem at all. The only one that I have ever had mana issues on was Chogall and that was when the raid was still in half blues.

  16. #36
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Given you didn't bother reading 90% of what I wrote, I'm not going to bother correcting all the reading comprehension problems (or what may even be lack of fight knowledge) - so lets just jump to your conclusion - how does aoe damage cover the mana cost of multi-dotting? o.O Regarding mana - consider the following - in Tier 11 when you were using Shadow Word: Death and Dispersion for mana - that was a significant dps loss - in Tier 12 you have 30% more shadowfiends (hint: your biggest mana cooldown) than you did in Tier 11 and a lot more intellect. If you didn't have mana problems in Tier 11 on anything in Tier 11 except Cho'gall - and you aren't using dispersion and Death for mana - you weren't multi-dotting like you should have been.
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  17. #37
    Once you're below about 40% Mana start casting SW to maintain your mana but as you get more gear it wont be necessary.

  18. #38
    Either way its not worth arguing about any more. I still don't get how you manage to run yourself out of mana in T11 even in fights where you DOT more than one target at once. The aoe covering the cost of multi dotting was with reference to the massochism talent which procs loads in all those encounters. Either way I never had issues with mana to be honest and I've not really heard of other people that did so long as you manage your cooldowns effectively.

  19. #39
    Shadow damage single target is high, multi-target, f.e. Shannox, played well no one comes comes to us.

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