Directly from the Q/A...

[Kelesti]

Guardian on base 3 minute cooldown. Calling it right now.

I'll push harder and say 2 minutes, to be honest. At least for Ret.

---------- Post added 2011-10-28 at 12:44 PM ----------

Also, what Kelesti said ^^^

Agreeing with me isn't necessarily the best thing to do on these boards.

[Handsylton]

I'll push harder and say 2 minutes, to be honest. At least for Ret.

---------- Post added 2011-10-28 at 12:44 PM ----------

Agreeing with me isn't necessarily the best thing to do on these boards.

It is if you are right.

Nah you seem to understand the concept of it's not the resource system that's broken, it's not the mechanics that's broken, it's how those two things are paired together that is broken. That's the problem. The mechanics for Ret have never gotten along well with the resource system, and caused for mass swings of activity. Sometimes you had nothing to push, and sometimes you couldn't push buttons fast enough. <--- Feels shitty. So having more normalized holes that occur every so often, like you said, that EVERY OTHER MELEE CLASS has as well, is fully acceptable. That's where we use filler utility abilities.

[davep]

Guardian on base 3 minute cooldown. Calling it right now.

I'm pretty sure you are right because currently Prot can drop the cooldown to 3mins and they are removing those types of talents. From what I can see they are doing is moving current talents into the actual abilities.

[Frozen Death Knight]

First thing's first, for people saying that they must fix cooldown reliance... they are. That's the whole point of the tier 6 talents; delinking our cooldowns from one another and making us choose which one we want. We are no longer the Zeal + Avenging Wrath + Guardian + Trinkets + Golemblood + Mass DP procs abomination that we once were. Now we either get Zeal, Improved Avenging Wrath, or DP. <--- The 3 factors that, working together, made us cooldown monsters.

To Talen, if it plays right, and feels right, I don't think that anyone is really going to give a shit about whether our resource system follows the same logic as other classes. That's the cold hard truth. It's never REALLY been about function, it's always been about feel. Like I've said before, people could have a giant pile of dogshit as a resource system, but if that resource system feels good and allows them to have a fluid, fun rotation, I don't think anyone is going to complain. Yes, it does not address the same issues that other melee combat systems address. We know this. That doesn't mean that this system, if it feels right and is fun, isn't going to be a fix. It might not be YOUR ideal fix, hell, it isn't MY ideal fix either. But a fix nonetheless.

Also, what Kelesti said ^^^

I'm sorry, but what? Of course people are going to have a problem with this new system, if the developers do not add a resource like Energy or Rage to it. Sure, you can make the current system more fun, but that still will not solve the rotation problems and the feeling of being restricted solely on cooldowns. Having spells like "Crusader Strike" on a CD makes the rotation feel extremely static, regardless of what else you add to the rest of the rotation. I may have not played a Warrior or a Rogue at max level, but when I did try out one of them when I wanted to level in "Cataclysm", it felt a lot more acceptable having to wait for your resources to build up to use finishers and such than having to wait for a CD just to press it again and wait.

No, Ret needs a dedicated resource and have Holy Power work with that to make it feel really good, as well as any other melee dps spec using mana, at the moment.

[Manstallion]

About the cooldown reliance you mentioned Jonuts, they have specifically stated that the reasoning for tier 6 talents is to break apart ret's cooldown damage completely. We are now going to have 2 cooldowns, Avenging Wrath and Guardian of the Ancient Kings. We get a built in, less RNG susceptible Zealotry if we take Holy Avenger, we get an Avenging Wrath full of HAMMERTIME without Zeal/DP to fuck it up if we take Sanctified Wrath, and we get DP without Zealotry AND Avenging Wrath with the HoW mechanic if we take Divine Purpose. They've basically delinked the three sources of our Cooldown AND RNG reliance pertaining to our damage. This is actually, wait for it... going to allow us to NOT have a 5-7k luck window factored into our dps, and be balanced around, wait for it... SUSTAINED DAMAGE.

:O

Except Zealotry, Avenging Wrath, and Guardian are all still baseline abilities. All the tier 6 talents do are buff AW and GoAK. Not sure why we wouldn't still pop all three at once.

[Kelesti]

Except Zealotry, Avenging Wrath, and Guardian are all still baseline abilities. All the tier 6 talents do are buff AW and GoAK. Not sure why we wouldn't still pop all three at once.

Zealotry doesn't exist anymore. It's folded into the Guardian, if you spec it.

Avenging Wrath is still a cooldown, yes. Hammer of Wrath can't be used with it unless you forsake Zealotry.

Even popping both cooldowns at once, it's going to be severely limited in effect compared to popping everything now. Especially now that Divine Purpose is on the chopping block too, because the class won't be balanced around "what if every other hit is DP anyways?"

[Manstallion]

Zealotry doesn't exist anymore. It's folded into the Guardian, if you spec it.

Avenging Wrath is still a cooldown, yes. Hammer of Wrath can't be used with it unless you forsake Zealotry.

Even popping both cooldowns at once, it's going to be severely limited in effect compared to popping everything now. Especially now that Divine Purpose is on the chopping block too, because the class won't be balanced around "what if every other hit is DP anyways?"

Where did they say Zealotry is going away? I must have missed that.

[Frozen Death Knight]

Where did they say Zealotry is going away? I must have missed that.

It is extremely likely that it goes away, when the tier 6 talent "Holy Avenger" has the same function as live "Zealotry", with the exception of it being activated by "Guardian of the Ancient Kings", instead.

[Manstallion]

It is extremely likely that it goes away, when the tier 6 talent "Holy Avenger" has the same function as live "Zealotry", with the exception of it being activated by "Guardian of the Ancient Kings", instead.

I think it's just as likely that you could chain GoAK and Zealotry to have a longer period of fast HP gain. Or you could go for the AW buff and get more burst.

[Judge Malthred]

A nuke for holy? What the fuck does that even mean?

Shockadin!

I miss the days of the shockadin.

[Deleted]

I'm anxious about the changes Blizzard has in store for us. I just hope they won't make the mistakes they have since.... the dawn of time.

[Jonuts]

Melee are designed around holes. It's not a Ret problem. It's intrinsically part of the role now for any class up there.

Sadly, true. The only reason it was such a problem for Ret is because the holes are unpredictable, and pretty jarring. The complete yo-yo ride of "ZOMFG! MY ACTION BAR LIT UP LIKE A CHRISTMAS TREE!" and "Well, fuck. Wish I had something to press..." makes an extremely unfulfilling gameplay mechanic. I'd LOVE it if I had zero dead GCD's. Unforunately, no melee really does.

First thing's first, for people saying that they must fix cooldown reliance... they are.

That remains to be seen. Our CD's themselves are quite powerful, and even more so depending on which T6 talent you choose. It remains to be seen whether the new design makes us limp ass wet noodles when CD's aren't up to even us out or not. Frankly, I'm tired of struggling to break 10k on trash if my CD's aren't up then doing 25-30k on a raid boss or 40k on a 5man boss. It's pretty stupid.

[Vanderhuge]

I made a post over on the MoP forums (which I'm sure was completely overlooked), but I do think it's time they just scrap auto-attacks and any goofy RNG that goes with them. Just give melee classes abilities that cost no resources, grant no resources, have no cooldown, but do a small amount of damage. After playing so many caster specs it just feels like you're always doing something, even if you have a cast time. My examples here would be making abilities like Strike (Warrior), Primal Strike (Shaman), and giving similar to other melee classes. This would help lower levels by giving them more to do up front, and it helps a lot of the slower melee cycles, such as Assassination Rogue.

It seems like they're doing something similar by chucking in new abilities in some of the "spec" talent trees, so I really can't complain. So here's something to discuss: making consecrate somewhat fun and exciting, dependent on spec. Veneration isn't a bad idea, it just seems like something that was designed to be a hard counter to all of the AoE roots that are in other class trees. Maybe have it act as a Healing Rain for Holy? Maybe the Ret one turns your physical damage into Holy damage? There are plenty of ideas that could be used for this.

[Reith]

I think it's just as likely that you could chain GoAK and Zealotry to have a longer period of fast HP gain. Or you could go for the AW buff and get more burst.

"Divine Purpose and Zealotry add too much complication or RNG for some players, which is why we think they make good optional mechanics." -Blizzard

Anyway, I think 2 minutes on GoAK is not entirely out of the question, but it depends on the other baseline/spec abilities and their numbers and stuff.

[Deepone]

Shock... Shock... Shock... Shock.... Shockadinnnnnnnnnnnn

I actually think Paladin and Shaman should get four trees as well as Druid. For Paladin it should be shockadin (caster dps with some heals, much like boomkin); for Shaman it should be a sword-and-board tank that uses totems and enhancement-like abilities for mitigation. These are alternate play styles that the classes have flirted with since vanilla, and should finally become mainstream now that 4 trees are considered acceptable (the only reason they weren't in before).

[The Good Captain]

It was always a valid option and one discussed at other times. The difficulty here is that they really ARE just papering over the faults in the basic class mechanics and so far, that translates into storing up problems for later. Maybe they'll do enough papering to hold the class together for a while but overall, this isn't a good sign.

Talen, short of secret knowledge you are bound by blood and oath to defend and never divulge, this just does not seem to be the case. Though I've not played in about a year now, it would appear most complaints relative to RNG's overarching influence over our rotation and damage are addressed in the recently revealed model. DP, SW, and Zealotry-- all pertinent to our DPS-- are no longer so deeply integrated or intertwined.

Additionally, we've now an acceptable number of DPS CDs in our toolkit, and for the first time ever (well, in a while), there may not be just one way to play. I think you might still be firmly anchored in the old Ret'osophy that mandated we always have something to push, lest our DPS suffer; this attracted many players preferring a more frenetic playstyle to our class in the first place. This was fun in Wrath, but it more severely limited the individual's ability to perform optimally to external constraints, more so than now. Even missing a GCD by .4 seconds or hitting Exorcism just as DS proc'ed was damaging, but it also didn't require much skill or tact either, as the event and recovery itself were so fleeting as to be unnoticeable. Now, while things don't differ much from the former, the latter had significantly changed in Cataclysm

This is a misconception. As certain players have gleefully pointed out in the past, some other classes/specs have MORE RNG than Rets. The trouble is, it works for them. It ISN'T the amount of RNG that is the issue....it is the impact that RNG has on the DPS and rotation. Removing or tweaking DP isn't going to fix that. Whether the Paladin combat system is tweaked enough to lessen the impact of RNG will depend on other factors.

EJL

Sure. However, the new talent system preview has offered us a glimpse of their new model and strategy. I have to say, on many points, Talen, I agree with you; I hate being lackluster compared to other classes' specs, spells, toolkits, and innovation. I understand looking at this new tree, it doesn't seem they're funneling much of their creativity into the Ret' think-tank. But I also have to agree with Handsylton here, they do appear to be well on to understanding our ails and meeting them this expansion. Just because they didn't sweep away the board and burn the table with it doesn't mean we're looking at being more broken the next expansion. Boring and pail, probably, but playability is looking up (God knows, I know it, I feel as you do, 'not sure if play'), but come on, they're separating our three primary mechanics into three individual playstyles and divvying them up for use among all three specs. That there already means a lot, and not quite that they're incompetent... again.

I know, we've been here, we were just a year ago, but... Pre-alpha/beta is pre-alpha/beta. "THE TREES (flora) AND ARCHITECTURE ALREADY LOOK FLESHED OUT AND PRETTY IN THE VIDYA" does not necessarily mean, "THE TALENT TREES AND CLASSES ARE SHIPPING AS IS". Yeah, the same, old, song and dance, but the premise remains the same; short of some god-like soothsaying or inside info, we've got nothin'. But dude, I relate, I know that feel. It is underwhelming, inasmuch any of it being flashy and new pertains, but I hope our spells and maybe future iterations of the tree-- whilst not sacrificing any of the long-overdue acknowledgments the talents represent-- portend some fresh ideas and innovation. Hell, that they're openly admitting to some of their old design concepts (BIG sword and board, Shockadin, etc.) might imply they're open to at least dusting off some popular concepts and heeding player data when beta does roll around.

I vant spells and auras, if Shammwow gets exclusively offensive totems, I wanna see if Ret' Aura'll be more offensive and less passive... See, there's still a lot we don't know.

Oh, from the other thread:

Oh my gods. You're still alive?
/hug
I've missed you, Thunder God Cid.

I WAS MISSED? Whoa. I totally missed you too!
/hug
I'd /brofist Ronark and that guy whose name escapes me, but it looks like they died. But hey, Talen and Zcks held out, that's awesome. And you're still quarreling with Zealous, that warms my heart.

[Vanderhuge]

I WAS MISSED? Whoa. I totally missed you too!
/hug
I'd /brofist Ronark and that guy whose name escapes me, but it looks like they died. But hey, Talen and Zcks held out, that's awesome. And you're still quarreling with Zealous, that warms my heart.

TGC, I'm pretty sure your avatar alone brings joy to the Paladin boards.

[Vuagnon]

Sunder is covered by your Protection Warrior, or your Feral Drid (theirs lasts five minutes). Sunder is also refreshed if you glyph Collossus Smash. So sure you can spend rage that could've been held for at least some damage to do effectively nothing. But of course, you know, that hole there can be filled. Hey, Ret could've filled holes in its rotation with a Hand spell, or Holy Radiance. No problems there, right?

Err.. Filling a rotation with hand spells or HR? You know their cooldowns would restrict that. Your best bet would be to save them for occasional times, when you really need them for either an emergency situation or easing others' jobs in a raid or party environment. Sunder on the other hand is always available and can be used with the glyph to greater effect if it's not covered by someone else. And it may not be so it stands as an option.

First off, I would have said Assassination. Second off, your point?

I have personally found Fury as easy to play as Wrath's Ret, being so called the faceroll. Personal preference you may call. The point is Fury has more options than Ret to fill its rotation despite having its own gaps and those gaps are more negligible than Ret's. Being unable to see how horrendous Ret's situation has been throughout Cata would require either pure ignorance or malevolance.

Melee has holes in the rotation. Doesn't matter if it's a rogue, a death knight, a warrior, or a Paladin. Doesn't matter if it's monk or Enhancement. Melee has holes. Period. I'm not talking about the "quality" of the rotation (Holy Wrath, srsly). I don't care that you've played every other spec. It's irrelevant. I don't care how much or how little polish has (as it's completely subjective). I care for the point that people think "the designers are putting holes in our rotation, meaning we have deadtime" is apparently a Ret only problem. It's not, as proven above. Ret has other problems that exacerbate this one, but the occasional gap is not the issue.

As if I said it was only a Ret problem. I said Ret suffered most out of it because of the pitiful design devs deemed worthy for the spec.

Divine Purpose no longer will trigger off of fillers, only finishers. 15% chance (-ish). Ret is losing Zealotry and Sanctified Wrath, forcing you to pick between one of the three.

So they are looking to fix the RNG issues by toning them down. A lot. They are looking to fix the reliance on cooldowns because now that Ret can't stack them all, it can't be balanced around having them all up (as well as being unable to do anything unless they're up)

They revealed the intention of easing cooldown reliance recently. The reason why people, including me, hated talents like DP (I actually did more than hating) was because the rotation was so badly designed that the spec starved for procs to have a reliable stream of damage. And this happened too often to say the rotational gaps are at an acceptable degree. Ret simply had worse quality than other specs when it came to rotation. I never hated to have a KM proc while playing with my Frost DK for example because all it did was to improve my already reliable damage, not time and time again fill a dead gap. In other words, procs being the only fillers during Ret's rotation happened too oftenly to call the rotation enjoyable. Should I also write in other languages?

As to issues being toned down by a lot, I wouldn't have high hopes unless Blizzard announced some major changes for the class. Mana needs to go except for Holy. Then we may talk.

[The Good Captain]

I actually think Paladin and Shaman should get four trees as well as Druid. For Paladin it should be shockadin (caster dps with some heals, much like boomkin); for Shaman it should be a sword-and-board tank that uses totems and enhancement-like abilities for mitigation.

Wouldn't that be just dandy?

Divine Purpose no longer will trigger off of fillers, only finishers. 15% chance (-ish).

Which we should be using more often. Still leaves the Inquisition inquisition up in the air, here's to hoping it winds up integrated with something else (I didn't see CS mentioned anywhere).

[Handsylton]

Alright, I'm just going to say this one more time, because it seems like people are still holding onto this idea.. there is no need for Ret to copy a resource system from another class in order to function properly. There are other options that are just as valid, and just as likely to improve the feel and flow of the rotation. One of those options was to create more builders, increasing the rate that we use finishers, so finishers act as pseudo-fillers. The other problem, and reason why we never got a solid filler was because DP was meant to act as one of our main fillers. This was completely unreliable which was why sometimes we wished we had a button to press, and sometimes we couldn't press things fast enough. That was the problem with the feel and flow of the rotation. That was the RNG aspect of the rotation that everyone hated, and it's going away, bye bye!!

The cooldown reliance is definitely being toned down in 5.0. The removal of Zealotry and DP from baseline basically sever the spec from two mechanics that CAN NOT work together. Throw these in the mix with Avenging Wrath allow HoW usage, and we have a venerable clusterfuck of a cooldown rotation. These mechanics are all being broken apart. While this means that our cooldown rotation will improve dramatically, and we get to choose how we want our cooldown rotation/static rotation to function, it also means that we are losing a cooldown. Period. One is going bye bye, depending on your choice. So long crappy RNG-filled cooldown periods with clashing mechanics!!

The removal of DP from baseline is a huge one for us balance-wise as well. We are cooldown monsters because of DP, and we have low static damage because of DP. Sorry, but it's just true. DP being an infinite supply of Holy Power meant that we could theoretically just LIGHT UP and spam TV as many times in a row as we got lucky. This kind of burst was so detrimental that our baseline damage could not be raised. What if we did the same damage without cooldowns as a warrior without his, and then popped cooldowns and got lucky with DP? We would DESTROY everything in our path. Hell, we already do destroy everything in our path when the stars align. It's been a balance nightmare for Blizzard to try and keep us under control, because they undervalued Divine Purpose as a talent. That is going away baseline. Even the reformed version only procs off of 2 abilities that ret's use, so the chances of us getting those crazy lucky proc strings is very much lessened.

The filler problem will be less of a problem, with the amount of HP that we will be generating now. We still have to see what the baseline toolkit looks like. Maybe there is a filler in there somewhere that we have not seen that will act reliably to fill the gaps. Another short cooldown strike could do this and still leave some VERY small gaps in the rotation. This is something that Blizzard likes and wants to keep around, so they will stay. These changes, so far, from the Q&A, as well as the talent designs, all point to a design where instead of lighting up like a christmas tree sometimes, and other times having to sit on our hands every other button press, we will have some gaps, but for the most part, we will have a steady flow of shit to do. <--- That would fix the feel of Ret dramatically.

And the funny thing is, this is all without touching our secondary resource system. Ya know why? Because there were other options to fix the system besides giving us a yellow bar.