Non-panda related expansion discussion!

[Iceleaf]

Ok can we have some non-panda and non-pet battle system discussion on at least one thread now?

Lets talk about game mechanics, difficulty and those new non-panda features they will be adding.


New talent system? What are your thoughts on these?
Personally I like the idea. The class they said to revamp actually starts to feel like the class I originally rolled (warlock). So much healing, so much terror(fear) and fel-energy. DKs start to feel like actual scourge soldiers too now with shadowy and cold attacks.
The problem I have currently is of course that they are pretty incomplete. Most of the abilities are sometimes just must haves (why would tank take fear breaker rather than 20% dmg reduction? Its not like you will miss that even if theres boss that uses fear..its still only 0.01% of the expansion content)

What about difficulty?
They have already said they want to make more end-wrath oriented dungeons where you can jump in and do in 15 mins or so. I personally dislike the idea because wrath dungeons felt so boring. However I dont want the extreme end of hours long (at start, deadmines sup).
I dont personally like the whole idea of "hardcore? do challenge mode speedrun!" because its bit too artificial way to "make it harder".
Another consern on difficulty is the amount of cooldowns and healing given to everyone on the expansion. Theres tons of flat health healing (10% to 30% flat health) with trivial cooldowns (30 seconds longest being 2 mins) or gets applied instantly while you do dps.

Examples (you can skip this part if you dont care about talents):

Warlock talents:
-25% (nuke) dmg heals you OR 2% health healed per target on aoe drain life
-25% HEALTH healed on "mortal coil" (45 sec cooldown)
-Soul link (same as now) or "if dropped below 20% gets 50% dmg reduction - 90 seconds cd" or even 10 second immune bubble.
-44% health healed and 50% more healing received for 10 secs on 2 min cd OR 31k shield that reduces dmg by that spell school 15% 30 sec duration - 30 sec cd (essentially 31k heal if spell dmg).

DK talents:
-Antimagic zone now for everyone - 75% reduction or 11832 dmg reduced OR 20% boneshield to singletarget.
-Vampiric blood (last stand+healing received) OR death siphon attac that heals you 75% of the dmg that attack does only cd is deathrune but possibly hardly used for dps like death strike (ds+siphon = ??).

Druid talents:
-30% health heal with 2 min CD OR "if target takes dmg heals them for 2660 every 2 secs for 6 secs" 30 sec duration 30 sec cd.
-Shapeshifting heals you for 20% health - 30 seconds cd.

Hunter talents:
-Disengage heals you for 15% health when you land
-Aspect of hawk reduces direct dmg by 15% OR 2% health regenerated with pet every 5 seconds.

Mage talents:
-Cauterize (you know this one, "It wont die!")
-Ice barrier (7960 shield) 1 min duration 30 sec cd OR mana shield 12 sec cd 1 min duration, drains mana.

Paladin talents:
-Sacred shield to every spec, if reduced to 30% gains 15% more healing and 18005 shield OR ardent defender 20% dmg reduction and heals to 15% health if about to die.
-Holy shield (absorb bubble per holy power) OR 2x judgements = 100% free and 100% more effecive flash of light (this is more suitable for dps and maybe tanks if they dont "tank" anything(casting=cant avoid or block))
-Reduces CD of hand of sacrifice by 20% (more cds = yay)
-Avenging wrath = holy shock cd removed OR spells are like you have 3 holypower on proc

Priest talents:
-"Healing orb" think of flame orb of mage that heals and then "returns" and heals AGAIN and does dmg.
-Desperate prayer heals 30% health on 2 min cd(self cast?) OR if reduced below 30% hp gets 20% hp shield
-Vamp embrace all healing and dmg heals 15% others OR swaps targets health percentages and after effect ends you get healed 25% of health.

Rogue talents:
Poison that heals you for 10% of its dmg or cheat death or recup restores energy
(so imagine healing poison + recupping = what damage?)

And so on and so on.. you know what I mean? Will healing be snore-fest now?
Because if they desing raids so that "everyone" will have these healing talents on dps class there will be cookie-cutter specs and the damage will be so massive that those who dont take healing talents will get totally boof-dead and drain healers mana like tanks do.
However if they dont desing it the healing will become pretty easy because everyone just heals themselves to full.
Some classes already heal themselves pretty efficiently - rogues doing recup and warlocks can keep themselves up quite damn well and dks if they use death strike now and then.

PvE scenarios?
What do you want to see on this? I would assume this will be more towards casual-play(log in, do stuff, log out not "bad") due really short queue times and "everyone can complete it no matter what spec" and they wont last very long. Nice addition but possibly not for me unless theres "heroic scenarios" where avoiding stuff is punishing rather than "experiencing the event" meaning it will take longer than "normal scenario".

Would've you actually wanted new profession?
I wouldnt mind profession that does something with leather. Heck, it could've been secondary profession. Then again..archeology..uhm..yeah maybe not.

And other free discussion, as long its not arguing over pandas or "pet battle system"

[Soulwind]

Bu- but... PANDAS! They... they are everywhere! Ruining my serious gnome-filled world with their oriental themed island! And don't get me started about pokemon!


Jokes aside, I think we really need to center the forum discussions on what we'll be doing at max level (actual content and the features you mention) rather than what we'll get over the first week (pandaren, monks...).

[Yoshimiko]

I'm curious how PVP is going to look with the myriad of self-healing talents. ESPECIALLY warlocks. They're going to fricken be immortal. They can heal for over 100% of their maximum HP in total, all instant casts. What is blizzard thinking?!

Rogues with the healy poison + keeping recup up is going to be a bit scarry too.

[mysticx]

I'm curious how PVP is going to look with the myriad of self-healing talents. ESPECIALLY warlocks. They're going to fricken be immortal. They can heal for over 100% of their maximum HP in total, all instant casts. What is blizzard thinking?!

Rogues with the healy poison + keeping recup up is going to be a bit scarry too.

Well, all healing-reduction talents will be buffed to 25% reduction, and i like the self-heals personally, i levelled a warrior way back in vanilla, way too much reliance on food and bandages back then, eating or bandaging after every mob sucked, i can only imagine other non-healing classes felt similarly, i assume that all skills and talents need to be balanced for level 90 yet, so it should all work out in the end (note: "SHOULD work out" :P )

And the PvP ramifications, i doubt all those skills are cooldown-less, maybe instead of huge HP pools, Blizz are now trying improved self healing to make PvP fights last longer than three seconds...

[TordFish]

I really like the Talent System. Even though it's fun to place points on anything I'd rather have more combos to pick from than the same cookiecutter spec. I really hope they will change a lot so all talents work with all specs (like you said.. Tank getting 20% dmg redu or fear breaker.. Whaaaat to pick!)

Shorter instances with hard trash. Not much trash, so if you're good you'll be able to fight the bosses fast, but hard trash that require some thinking and not just aoe them down. I'd rather see 3-4 packs of trash that takes just as long time to kill then 40 packs of trash you just aoe down.

Longer instances is annoying, deadmines and SFK are two good examples. Just takes to long time.

PvE scenarios and PvE battlegrounds will have to throw some more info at me before I make my mind up about these.

Pet Talent System sounds fun! Loads of friends comming back to WoW because of it.



Pandas are awesome.

[Yoshimiko]

Well, all healing-reduction talents will be buffed to 25% reduction, and i like the self-heals personally, i levelled a warrior way back in vanilla, way too much reliance on food and bandages back then, eating or bandaging after every mob sucked, i can only imagine other non-healing classes felt similarly, i assume that all skills and talents need to be balanced for level 90 yet, so it should all work out in the end (note: "SHOULD work out" :P )

And the PvP ramifications, i doubt all those skills are cooldown-less, maybe instead of huge HP pools, Blizz are now trying improved self healing to make PvP fights last longer than three seconds...

I'm fine with self healing, but take Blood DK right now. Throw that on warlocks damage. That's what I'm looking at at least.

[Nikkaszal]

There's already some strong self-healing moves in the game already - let's use Death Strike as an example. For any DPS DK to use DS to heal themselves invokes a DPS loss: for Frost it means the loss of an Oblit, and for UH it borks the runes since they use BF pairs and U singles instead of the FU required to use Death Strike. Thus, in a pinch it can be handy for a DK to stop and heal themselves up, but in most cases it's far better to rely on the healer to cover them and continue with their own moveset.

Life Drain as well for locks - the damage it does is not comparable to the loss of an Sbolt or two.

Recup for rogues - only Sub uses Recup as part of their flow, Combat and Assass would be required to forgo a damage finisher to use it.



Almost all of the examples you've linked require a DPS class to use additional resources or GCDs to heal themselves or prevent damage, and thus will not be relied upon to provide constant benefit. They'll become tools to use in situations that call for it, such as periods of heavy damage or to prevent their own deaths as a last resort. A DPS spec's job is to provide as much damage as possible, and the healer's job is to prevent or reverse damage. When either one crosses over, they reduce in efficiency and potency, and thus usually trust the other to perform their task.

[Yoshimiko]

There's already some strong self-healing moves in the game already - let's use Death Strike as an example. For any DPS DK to use DS to heal themselves invokes a DPS loss: for Frost it means the loss of an Oblit, and for UH it borks the runes since they use BF pairs and U singles instead of the FU required to use Death Strike. Thus, in a pinch it can be handy for a DK to stop and heal themselves up, but in most cases it's far better to rely on the healer to cover them and continue with their own moveset.

Life Drain as well for locks - the damage it does is not comparable to the loss of an Sbolt or two.

Recup for rogues - only Sub uses Recup as part of their flow, Combat and Assass would be required to forgo a damage finisher to use it.



Almost all of the examples you've linked require a DPS class to use additional resources or GCDs to heal themselves or prevent damage, and thus will not be relied upon to provide constant benefit. They'll become tools to use in situations that call for it, such as periods of heavy damage or to prevent their own deaths as a last resort. A DPS spec's job is to provide as much damage as possible, and the healer's job is to prevent or reverse damage. When either one crosses over, they reduce in efficiency and potency, and thus usually trust the other to perform their task.

#1 job of every raid member - don't die unless the fight calls for it. :P

But I'm thinking in more of a pvp side of it. This will definitly bleed into pve though. The recup generating energy will probably be added to (almost) every rogues spec. More energy = more damage.

[Nikkaszal]

#1 job of every raid member - don't die unless the fight calls for it. :P

But I'm thinking in more of a pvp side of it. This will definitly bleed into pve though. The recup generating energy will probably be added to (almost) every rogues spec. More energy = more damage.

Yes yes, obviously DPS'ers need to be aware of their own mortality, but there's a difference between performing your job to maximum capacity while ensuring you stay alive, and of trying to be your own self-contained healer and destroying your damage output in the process.

Healing and prevention effects are indeed handy tools, yes, but they should be used WHERE NEEDED rather than constantly. Thus, healers will always have a job to do and yes, they will still need to work hard at times to do it. Just because a class has a self-heal doesn't mean they should be using it on cooldown to stay perpetually at 100% HP, because it's primarily the healer's job to keep them alive.

[Iceleaf]

Yes yes, obviously DPS'ers need to be aware of their own mortality, but there's a difference between performing your job to maximum capacity while ensuring you stay alive, and of trying to be your own self-contained healer and destroying your damage output in the process.

Healing and prevention effects are indeed handy tools, yes, but they should be used WHERE NEEDED rather than constantly. Thus, healers will always have a job to do and yes, they will still need to work hard at times to do it. Just because a class has a self-heal doesn't mean they should be using it on cooldown to stay perpetually at 100% HP, because it's primarily the healer's job to keep them alive.

Currently they do that. Choice between healing instead of max dps. However most of these seem so easy and just "you would do this anyway". For example passive 2% health regenerated every 5 secs or poison that heals you. Its not major dps loss if you throw "mortal coil" every 45 seconds to heal 25% health if needed.
Like example the priests healing orb would do damage too so its easy to just use that for damage and healing without too big of dps loss.
It seems just so easy to heal yourself rather with benefits rather than rely on healers so you can do full dps and not run "recup all the time" etc.

[Nikkaszal]

Currently they do that. Choice between healing instead of max dps. However most of these seem so easy and just "you would do this anyway". For example passive 2% health regenerated every 5 secs or poison that heals you. Its not major dps loss if you throw "mortal coil" every 45 seconds to heal 25% health if needed.
Like example the priests healing orb would do damage too so its easy to just use that for damage and healing without too big of dps loss.
It seems just so easy to heal yourself rather with benefits rather than rely on healers so you can do full dps and not run "recup all the time" etc.

Spirit Bond is already in the game. The amount it heals is very very small, and doesn't make a noticeable impact on a healer's job.

Mortal Coil "if needed", yes. If the warlock's taking heavy damage, or is about to die, sure they'll use it. But every 45s on cooldown JUST for the heal? No, it's unnecessary and a DPS loss. You should be more looking at the 1st tier talent that heals based on damage done by Sbolt, Incinerate and MG, as that is very definite PASSIVE healing.

Rogues using Leeching Poison are running at half poison damage capacity. The poison itself does no damage.

Spriests taking the Divine Star talent do so at the expense of the other two talents, which are far more suited to DPS.


Healing yourself and performing maximum DPS is still going to be a choice.