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  1. #1

    Stat Priority come 4.3 for Holy Paladins.

    I believe the stat priority has change dramatically from 4.2, I'm still working on it but what I feel comfortable with in 4.2
    Intellect>Spirit>>Haste to ~1k>Mastery to ~2000(30% bubble from heals)>Crit

    Feedback? thoughts? Comments? Concerns? Suggestions??

  2. #2
    is there any logic behind your "caps"? personaly im thinking more and more about dropping spirit in favor of haste as i don´t need the regen but the hps in crunchtimes, like golden boy phase and burnout

  3. #3
    Yeah, I felt comfortable at roughly 1k haste and I need 774 or so for the 4th tick of HR w/ Jotp. I feel having 30% bubbles from heals e.g ~2k mastery is as high as you can go.. maybe 31 or 32% but that 300 or so stat is probably more worth while to be put into haste or maybe even crit. Spirit is actually so god damned important come 4.3 with the changes to Holy Radiance.. it's just not smart to not cast it and shock for 3 HP to cast LoD. That ontop of being able to abuse Divine Light and Flash of Light (not to mention Holy Radiance) more the more spirit you have.
    Dropping spirit for haste or mastery or even crit (bleh) would be something to do in patch 4.2 with shard of woe and heroic gear tbh

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by drulis View Post
    is there any logic behind your "caps"? personaly im thinking more and more about dropping spirit in favor of haste as i don´t need the regen but the hps in crunchtimes, like golden boy phase and burnout
    In 4.3 they are changing the way paladins regen mana. instead of getting a base percent back from judgement you will get more regen based on spirit from judgement of the pure talent.

    but I doubt there will be a haste cap ever as it will always be the best throughput stat.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by FaithInTheDark View Post
    .but I doubt there will be a haste cap ever as it will always be the best throughput stat.
    The more haste you get (past like 2.0 or so) the more it starts to sort of.. not be as beneficial as it is at lower amounts. The main reason haste was sought after for paladins in -4.2 was for adding ticks to Holy Radiance, however since 4.0.6 mastery has been buffed enough that with Holy Radiance being changed to only last 3 second, making it incredibly impossible to add more than 4 ticks with Judgments of the Pure and not under the effect of raid buffs.

    Also, since gear has came from 346-359 to now a maximum of 410 item level.. there is enough stat there on all of your gear to make Mastery actually give more throughput than haste, especially considering mastery affects the initial direct heal that Holy Radiance gives. I definitely disagree that haste is the best throughput stat now. That being said, it's still pretty damn good... but mastery is better until you get to like, 30% or so.. why? because 30% bubbles from mastery takes ~2k mastery rating and having anything passed that to make a big difference.. e.g going from 30% mastery to 40% mastery is a big difference but 30% to 32% isn't going to be better than dumping those stats into haste to go from 1k haste to 1.2-1.3k haste.

  6. #6
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    where do you get this info from kiristus? is it just something you think will happen, or have you been a math genius in the hiding?
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  7. #7
    Not a math genius.. no. I'm thinking it's what is going to happen.. i've been working on my paladin on the PTR since it's been released.. a lot lately doing dragon soul, running instances and recount. In heavy AoE fights the healing done (for 25 ultraxion before the 100% increased healing done buff was given) I was doing was ~58kHPS.. Holy Radiance was on top by.. kinda far, then it was Illuminated healing and Light of Dawn. (that's with ~1k haste and 25% mastery as well as LoD glyph, just fyi) I still need to do a lot of testing with other sources like for example going into all haste.

  8. #8
    Int > Spirit > Haste till your next HR tick > Mastery > Crit. Thats my guess.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by kiristus View Post
    1) The main reason haste was sought after for paladins in -4.2 was for adding ticks to Holy Radiance.
    2) however since 4.0.6 mastery has been buffed enough.
    3) that with Holy Radiance being changed to only last 3 second, making it incredibly impossible to add more than 4 ticks with Judgments of the Pure and not under the effect of raid buffs.

    4) there is enough stat there on all of your gear to make Mastery actually give more throughput than haste, especially considering mastery affects the initial direct heal that Holy Radiance gives.
    5) I definitely disagree that haste is the best throughput stat now. That being said, it's still pretty damn good... but mastery is better until you get to like, 30% or so.. why? because 30% bubbles from mastery takes ~2k mastery rating and having anything passed that to make a big difference.. e.g going from 30% mastery to 40% mastery is a big difference but 30% to 32% isn't going to be better than dumping those stats into haste to go from 1k haste to 1.2-1.3k haste.
    1) No
    2) No
    3) And with hot ticks only being half of the heal getting another tick matters even less.

    4) Why would more stat points make mastery better than haste? !_!
    5) Just because you think a randomly made up 30% number is special doesn't mean it is special. Where do you get those 30% from anyway?
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  10. #10
    Why do you disagree with '1 - 3' "No" really isn't anything constructive nor something intelligent to say, anyone can say 'No'. What's your reasoning?

    4) Because.. more stat points is the ability to actually reach 30% absorbs from heals and to get to an amount of haste you're comfortable with.
    5) No one said it was special, and 30% is gained from getting 2k mastery rating.. you don't have an infinite amount of stats to play around with so there's obviously going to be some sort of cap limited by your item level. Sure, we're hard casters, but having the potential to basically 'put 30% of your last direct heal on reserve to be used when damage is taken' is far more useful than getting a redundant amount of haste.
    I say redundant because haste starts to diminish its effectiveness at doing what it does best at a certain point, reduce the cast time of your spells E.g getting 3 thousand haste rating... What.

    While I appreciate feedback, I really would love to keep it constructive instead of just shutting me or other people down. Thanks

    ---------- Post added 2011-10-31 at 04:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fmp View Post
    Int > Spirit > Haste till your next HR tick > Mastery > Crit. Thats my guess.
    Yeah, I'd have to agree with you there.

    ---------- Post added 2011-10-31 at 04:10 PM ----------

    "And with hot ticks only being half of the heal getting another tick matters even less."

    Having more ticks on Holy Radiance is always a good idea. Ticks aren't going to 'matter less' unless something major happens to Holy Paladins and no, the changes in 4.3 aren't qualifying as major.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiristus View Post
    Why do you disagree with '1 - 3' "No" really isn't anything constructive nor something intelligent to say, anyone can say 'No'. What's your reasoning?

    4) Because.. more stat points is the ability to actually reach 30% absorbs from heals and to get to an amount of haste you're comfortable with.
    5) No one said it was special, and 30% is gained from getting 2k mastery rating.. you don't have an infinite amount of stats to play around with so there's obviously going to be some sort of cap limited by your item level. Sure, we're hard casters, but having the potential to basically 'put 30% of your last direct heal on reserve to be used when damage is taken' is far more useful than getting a redundant amount of haste.
    I say redundant because haste starts to diminish its effectiveness at doing what it does best at a certain point, reduce the cast time of your spells E.g getting 3 thousand haste rating... What.

    While I appreciate feedback, I really would love to keep it constructive instead of just shutting me or other people down. Thanks

    ---------- Post added 2011-10-31 at 04:07 PM ----------



    Yeah, I'd have to agree with you there.

    ---------- Post added 2011-10-31 at 04:10 PM ----------

    "And with hot ticks only being half of the heal getting another tick matters even less."

    Having more ticks on Holy Radiance is always a good idea. Ticks aren't going to 'matter less' unless something major happens to Holy Paladins and no, the changes in 4.3 aren't qualifying as major.
    There's a few things. We aren't druids. We don't use haste like they do to get extra HoT ticks. It happens just because we hard cast everything else, so the caps are desired, but no means somewhere to stop.

    2k mastery vs 2k haste, I'm pretty sure the 2k haste will improve your hps by more, considering that mastery doesn't affect all of our spells, and there are more times a heal target has died before the cast finished than because they didn't recieve that bit more healing from your previous cast. Our throughput goes up naturally with gear, via intellect. I don't see any reason to make less use of that stat because another stat improves our throughput aswell (Same applies to crit).

    Mastery was demonstrated a while ago (see Zaroua from Premonition). It works, but nowhere near as well as haste. We're not seeing 1sec cast times, so every point of haste is just as valuable as the previous one.

    Listen to Nillo, he does seem to know what he's doing.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiristus View Post
    While I appreciate feedback, I really would love to keep it constructive instead of just shutting me or other people down. Thanks
    You provide no evidence for your conclusions. You're just spiting out ideas left and right, with nothing to back them up with. It's hard to give you some kind of constructive feedback due to this.

    Basically, for example all these points you brought up

    1) The main reason haste was sought after for paladins in -4.2 was for adding ticks to Holy Radiance.
    2) however since 4.0.6 mastery has been buffed enough.
    3) that with Holy Radiance being changed to only last 3 second, making it incredibly impossible to add more than 4 ticks with Judgments of the Pure and not under the effect of raid buffs.

    4) there is enough stat there on all of your gear to make Mastery actually give more throughput than haste, especially considering mastery affects the initial direct heal that Holy Radiance gives.
    5) I definitely disagree that haste is the best throughput stat now. That being said, it's still pretty damn good... but mastery is better until you get to like, 30% or so.. why? because 30% bubbles from mastery takes ~2k mastery rating and having anything passed that to make a big difference.. e.g going from 30% mastery to 40% mastery is a big difference but 30% to 32% isn't going to be better than dumping those stats into haste to go from 1k haste to 1.2-1.3k haste.
    is just "this is how I feel", no actual math, statistics or logs shown supporting your claims. I don't see a problem with people refuting your ideas with a simple "no" as you haven't even tried to convince us that what you're saying should be considered. You might disagree with my perspective, but this is how I feel about it and apparently a few other people as well.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    1) No
    2) No
    3) And with hot ticks only being half of the heal getting another tick matters even less.

    4) Why would more stat points make mastery better than haste? !_!
    5) Just because you think a randomly made up 30% number is special doesn't mean it is special. Where do you get those 30% from anyway?
    Haste is a linear improvement meaning that every point is of equal value as the last. Haste doesn't suffer from diminishing returns. This means that going from 16% haste to 17% is as good as going from 5% haste to 6%. That is a mathematical fact from the game. Not how I feel about it. Now back to stat priorities.

    Crit will still be a bad stat for us. Or at least the lowest on the stats. It still suffers from poor conversion rate. It takes more points to see an increase of crit. RNG is still bad for us. If you are replying on a heal to save a tank than you are doing something wrong.

    Mastery will be a strong stat since it affects the first heal from HR. But since it doesn't affect beacon or the hot after that initial tick it still won't be as great.

    The difference in our stats will probably be almost minimal at this point that you could probably stack anything and be ok. I still think overall haste will provide more use since if affects all of our heals.
    --Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do- (B. Franklin)--

  14. #14
    Zaroua from Premonition is also gemming for mastery, which is flat out stupid. Sure, we're not druids but if we can get 30% of our heals to absorb, why not? In 4.3 mastery affects all spells other than the tick portion of Holy Radiance. wouldn't you rather have your healing spells 15% stronger? We're paladins, we're all about heavy tank healing... so theoretically and additional 15% healing done on the tank as an absorb that can absorb any kinds of damage... Is going to be better than casting a spell quickly, and not even that much faster either.. I went from 25% mastery to 15% mastery, roughly 892 haste to 2147 haste, Holy light went from a 2.27 cast time to 2.08 cast time. Do you honestly think shaving off .2 seconds from a spell is going to be better than increasing the amount it heals by 10%? In patch 4.3, there is a LOT of aoe damage, having your Holy Radiance cast time shaved down by .2 isn't going to really benefit the group as much as having 25% of the direct heal apply a bubble for everyone it affects (which should be the entire party) So honestly, 25% mastery+ and then focusing on haste... Best of both worlds, we're hard casters, sure..

    Situation with mastery in the dragon soul(Occurring a LOT in this raid instance): when we cast we reserve 30% of our initial heal on the target as a bubble, so if holy radiance crits for 10k, 3k of that is a bubble for the up coming aoe damage. 3 charges of holy power, you crit a 30k with LoD (glyphed) that's a 9k bubble on 4 people. 4!

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by kiristus View Post
    Why do you disagree with '1 - 3' "No" really isn't anything constructive nor something intelligent to say, anyone can say 'No'. What's your reasoning?
    "No" is as intelligent as it will get when answering to something that is just flat out wrong. If I'd bother writing walls of text each time someone writes nonsense like you do I'd be on here 24/7.

    Quote Originally Posted by kiristus View Post
    4) Because.. more stat points is the ability to actually reach 30% absorbs from heals and to get to an amount of haste you're comfortable with.
    No one said it was special, and 30% is gained from getting 2k mastery rating.. you don't have an infinite amount of stats to play around with so there's obviously going to be some sort of cap limited by your item level. Sure, we're hard casters, but having the potential to basically 'put 30% of your last direct heal on reserve to be used when damage is taken' is far more useful than getting a redundant amount of haste.
    5) I say redundant because haste starts to diminish its effectiveness at doing what it does best at a certain point, reduce the cast time of your spells E.g getting 3 thousand haste rating... What.
    4) it's still just a random number no matter how many times you repeat it. If you'd actually talk about something that diminishing in value setting a goal of x rating might actually have a meaning. (Like spirit to X because then you'll be able to spam HL or haste to 50% with buff XY,....)
    5) Haste doesn't have diminishing returns - people who think so should look up how haste works.
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  16. #16
    Zaroua from Premonition Whatever this guy did, testing.. math.. it's all irrelevant and wrong. Why? He has 99k mana unbuffed. Why? because he's gemming for mastery as a healer which is always a no,no. And Ajwon, I have attempted to convince, you haven't tried something new just like 90% of all raiders out there simply because it's change and you're afraid of it. Why else would you simply shun people for trying something different improve their heals in a different way than you? Based on out dated math? Why do you need math? Here's a suggestion, get on the PTR and try healing with mastery. Just go try it. See what happens and compare it to all haste> Do the math, compare the math from using all haste and using all mastery and see what you come up with.
    I can guarantee you my stat priority is going to give you more throughput than your out dated one.
    I titled this thread 'Holy Paladin Stat priority come 4.3' so post your ideas or thoughts on what I've suggested, don't just come in with no constructive criticism, a negative attitude and no willingness to think outside of the box or try something different. Yeah, you're right. Another person feels like acting like a bigot is a good idea in this day and age.

    So please, for future posters on this thread, if you feel the need to post something to increase the amount of posts you've accumulated do me a favor and post on a different website.

    ---------- Post added 2011-10-31 at 06:20 PM ----------

    Okay, Nilo. How am I wrong? You're acting like a hypocrite and it's reallllyyy irritating.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by kiristus View Post
    Zaroua from Premonition is also gemming for mastery, which is flat out stupid. Sure, we're not druids but if we can get 30% of our heals to absorb, why not? In 4.3 mastery affects all spells other than the tick portion of Holy Radiance. wouldn't you rather have your healing spells 15% stronger? We're paladins, we're all about heavy tank healing... so theoretically and additional 15% healing done on the tank as an absorb that can absorb any kinds of damage... Is going to be better than casting a spell quickly, and not even that much faster either.. I went from 25% mastery to 15% mastery, roughly 892 haste to 2147 haste, Holy light went from a 2.27 cast time to 2.08 cast time. Do you honestly think shaving off .2 seconds from a spell is going to be better than increasing the amount it heals by 10%? In patch 4.3, there is a LOT of aoe damage, having your Holy Radiance cast time shaved down by .2 isn't going to really benefit the group as much as having 25% of the direct heal apply a bubble for everyone it affects (which should be the entire party) So honestly, 25% mastery+ and then focusing on haste... Best of both worlds, we're hard casters, sure..

    Situation with mastery in the dragon soul(Occurring a LOT in this raid instance): when we cast we reserve 30% of our initial heal on the target as a bubble, so if holy radiance crits for 10k, 3k of that is a bubble for the up coming aoe damage. 3 charges of holy power, you crit a 30k with LoD (glyphed) that's a 9k bubble on 4 people. 4!
    You missed the point of haste. Haste doesn't lower the cast time of your spells. It increases the number of spells that you caste. So with 2147 you can cast almost 25% more spells than with 0 haste. So is 25% more spells more than 25% bubble on your spells? In my mind yes.
    --Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do- (B. Franklin)--

  18. #18
    If you're standing still 100% of the time, and maybe if I had 0 haste with 25% mastery but I'm at 895 haste as well as 1620 mastery (25% absorption) So. roughly 10% more spells than if I had 0 haste and a 25% bubble.
    Last edited by kiristus; 2011-10-31 at 06:28 PM.

  19. #19
    Your numbers:

    Going from 15% -> 25% mastery shields = 1.25/1.15 = 1.08695652 => 8.70% throughput increase (as absorbs)

    Going from 2.27 -> 2.08 second cast time = 2.27/2.08 = 1.09134615 => 9.13% throughput increase

    If your numbers are right (I haven't checked if they are) it's pretty close, but haste offers more throughput when chain casting. Mastery has the benefit of being an absorb rather than a heal, while haste has the benefit of letting your heals land faster. Also, more haste means more daybreak procs, more tower of radiance procs, more protector of the innocent procs, etc. Most will choose haste given this choice.

    As for next patch, why are you picking 1k haste and 2k mastery as points where you should start going for a new stat that was previously worse? You've just made up a couple numbers, you haven't actually told us why those numbers having any significance.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by kiristus View Post
    If you're standing still 100% of the time, maybe those numbers are accurate, also. I'm at 895 haste as well as 1620 mastery (25% absorption)
    If you are moving and not casting than mastery is no use either. Those numbers are facts. Not how I feel about it. It is how haste works. If chose to ignore that fact, that is your choice. With 895 that's around 9% haste from gear. So I have 2154 haste which is around 16% from gear. I can get around 7% more spells off in a fight than you. Same fight so we would move the same amount. I would still have 7% more casted spells than you.
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