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  1. #41

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Earsofpower View Post
    I got bored and wanted to see the haste we'd need for different HR ticks (since we keep discussing HR and haste) for 4.3 (presumably there is loads of these floating about already but made one myself), assuming HR ticks are affected by haste.

    Yes it's coloured horribly, but you can't complain it's hard to read.



    Lilac highlights are the things I'm guessing will be reachable if we get haste on enough dragon soul items. I wouldn't mind getting hold of SoW before 4.3, 3048 haste + DF + BL + SoW looks like it could be a whole bundle of fun
    Those numbers are horribly off - looks like you didn't account for talents/raid buffs.
    The 4th tick comes for free and the 5th should be around 3.5k
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulldancer View Post
    LoL Tatsu and Nillo would understand LOL
    2 people making up random numbers and talking about how they "feel" a stat works well still doesn't make that stat any more valuable.
    Last edited by Nillo; 2011-10-31 at 10:57 PM.
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  3. #43
    Oh right you are, thought I accounted for the buffs/talents in the hidden columns but must've missed it off, thanks

  4. #44
    As Nillo said the 5th tick comes at 3493.

    It can be reached with normal Dragon soul gear ( not without any sacrifice though around 200 intell)

    http://ptr.wowhead.com/compare?items...80:75:40:35:30

    The same here without any sacrifice with heroic gear :

    http://ptr.wowhead.com/compare?items...41:77114:77989

    In each situation Epic gems are not included yet.

    The downside is about "low" spirit. I said low because it's nearly the same amount of spirit I have on live now

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-01 at 12:53 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Earsofpower View Post
    Oh right you are, thought I accounted for the buffs/talents in the hidden columns but must've missed it off, thanks
    Would you mind putting this sheet online please? I was looking dor something like that
    Last edited by Shae; 2011-10-31 at 11:51 PM.

  5. #45
    Are you sure on that 3493?

    The conversion is 128.125, right?

    EDIT: Just so you know, I'm getting 3,491 rating needed for the 5th tick, using 128.125 ratio
    Last edited by Earsofpower; 2011-11-01 at 12:16 AM.

  6. #46
    i'm torn...... I wanna keep like 12% mastery and wanna get my haste up 2..... I'm torn man. I See and used the benefits of mastery and haste.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Earsofpower View Post
    Oh right you are, thought I accounted for the buffs/talents in the hidden columns but must've missed it off, thanks
    Would you mind putting this sheet online please? I was looking dor something like that

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-01 at 02:23 AM ----------

    I strated to do the math by myself but I am a lazy man and just follow the numbers here :

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...l=en_US#gid=29

    Would you mind giving me your formula?

  8. #48
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...hl=en_GB#gid=0

    Just exported it from excel, join the chat if it lets you (not too familiar with google docs), he has used a ratio of 128.05716 not 128.125 btw. I don't know which one is correct.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Tatsu View Post
    You missed the point of haste. Haste doesn't lower the cast time of your spells. It increases the number of spells that you caste. So with 2147 you can cast almost 25% more spells than with 0 haste. So is 25% more spells more than 25% bubble on your spells? In my mind yes.
    unless your standing in a corner just casting away its not gonna happen im on the ptr as well the fights have heavy aoe damage and your constantly moving on alot if fights so your not gonna get 25% extra heals just not gonna happen. Like i said im on the ptr as well and i feel the same way as the op i have gone Int>Spirit>Mastery>Haste >Crit and its totally ridiculous how much HR heals for and how much Illuminated healing absorbs. I suggest you all go make or copy your toon to the ptr and try it out for yourselfs

  10. #50
    the weight of spirit has been increased since HR cost 35% base mana :/

    By the way Skandulous du you have any numbers to provide to see how awesome HR is?

  11. #51
    Have not personally tried ptr raiding as of yet so can't really comment on that but my reasoning to why haste will keep being better on specific fights is predictable yet not constant AoE damage. Think Nefarian Crackles, Rag's Traps and Seed explosions, mechanics like those. Taking traps as an example, say I have 5 targets I need to top. I'd rather top all 5 than 4 of them with a stronger shield and hope wrath of rag targets one of those 4.

    It should turn out to be situational, haste shouldn't be completely discarded.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Skandulous View Post
    unless your standing in a corner just casting away its not gonna happen im on the ptr as well the fights have heavy aoe damage and your constantly moving on alot if fights so your not gonna get 25% extra heals just not gonna happen. Like i said im on the ptr as well and i feel the same way as the op i have gone Int>Spirit>Mastery>Haste >Crit and its totally ridiculous how much HR heals for and how much Illuminated healing absorbs. I suggest you all go make or copy your toon to the ptr and try it out for yourselfs
    I am on the ptr. But any given time frame that you are casting you are getting off more spells. My point was the way that haste works. Haste increase the amount of spells that you cast, the by product is a reduction in spell casts times.
    --Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do- (B. Franklin)--

  13. #53
    *Cheers @Skand*
    They've increase the mana cost of Holy Radiance making it cost ~1k more, forcing me to cast it less often than I have been :c until I get more gear/spirit that is. >
    And thanks for the lesson Tatsu but I'm pretty certain anyone who takes playing a holy paladin seriously knows how haste works

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-01 at 04:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkestis View Post
    Have not personally tried ptr raiding as of yet so can't really comment on that but my reasoning to why haste will keep being better on specific fights is predictable yet not constant AoE damage. Think Nefarian Crackles, Rag's Traps and Seed explosions, mechanics like those. Taking traps as an example, say I have 5 targets I need to top. I'd rather top all 5 than 4 of them with a stronger shield and hope wrath of rag targets one of those 4.

    It should turn out to be situational, haste shouldn't be completely discarded.
    Considering at least, yes AT LEAST. 5/8 of the encounters in Dragon Soul are all stacking for heavy aoe damage.. You'd be a fool to play it like Rag. Also, Nefarians Crackles and Rags traps are two totally different situations as a holy paladin depending where you are in the raid.. If you're in the group then you definitely shouldn't be sitting there spamming holy light in 4.3..
    Last edited by kiristus; 2011-11-01 at 04:39 PM.

  14. #54
    I just tried on the PTR full buff without flask ilevel 379 gear:



    Numbers

    For 20 targets

    Initial heal is around 2K per target no crit
    Hot is around 350*3 per target no crit

    Both can crit. But I don"t count it because it's just a comparison between full haste model and mastery/haste model and not about throughput only. So in each crit are possible so I nullifie it (yes I assume the weight of crit is the same in each scenario)

    So

    (2000*20)+(350*3*20)= 61000
    (2000*20)+(350*4*20)= 68000
    (2000*20)+(350*5*20)= 75000 (3493 haste rating)

    Each additional tick increase healing by 7K so around 11%




    Mastery

    With 15% absorb via illuminated healing absorbs equal = 6000

    (2000*20)+(350*3*20)+6000= 67000
    (2000*20)+(350*4*20)+6000= 74000
    (2000*20)+(350*5*20)+6000= 81000 (3493 haste rating)

    Each point in mastery increase absorbs by 600 (1.5%)


    With 30% absorb via illuminated healing absorbs equal = 12000

    (2000*20)+(350*3*20)+12000= 73000
    (2000*20)+(350*4*20)+12000= 80000
    (2000*20)+(350*5*20)+12000= 87000 (3493 haste rating)




    Haste

    With 2000 haste rating HR casting time is around 1.91. So 188 HR casted on a 6mn fight
    With 3500 haste rating HR casting time is around 1.53. So 235 HR casted on a 6mn fight




    Haste VS Mastery

    It's impossible to reach the 5th HR tick and 30% absorb via illuminated healing. So I will compare

    1) 3500 haste 0 mastery (basic math because it's nearly impossible to havn't any point in mastery at all)
    2) 2000 haste 1500 mastery (2000 haste because it will be insane to go with no haste at all)


    Benefits

    1) 235 casts and the 5th tick on each HR
    2) 188 casts and 15% additional absorb on the initial heal(40K heal)



    Results

    1) 81000*235= 19 035 000
    2) 87000*188= 16 356 000



    If we watch rough numbers only haste seems far superior than mastery but don't forget

    - Overhealing have a bigger impact on direct heal via haste than absorbs via mastery
    - 3500 haste rating is reachable with a few sacrifices here and there like spirit (mainly with normal DS gear not really with heroic gear)
    - We'll not be spamming HR all the time(I hope...)
    - I don't have enough hindsight about how much spirit we will need.
    - IT'S ONLY ROUGH NUMBER!!!


    PS I tried to be clear as much as possible but english is not my native language.

  15. #55
    Nullifying crit is... a bad idea if you're looking for accurate numbers for mastery.

    "It's impossible to reach the 5th HR tick and 30% absorb via illuminated healing"
    Not correct... at all actually. Assuming i'm under the effects of all raid buffs (and we are assuming) I'll have the 5th tick with divine favor, or hero. Someone in full haste gear will have to do the exact same thing to reach the 5th tick on HR. And sorry, but you along with everyone else is assuming the target has either 2k mastery or 2k haste and that's not what I'm talking about. So, knowing that both paladins have the 5th tick.. your 'benefits' are irrelevant per-say. And on a 6 minute fight we aren't going to be casting Holy Radiance Non-stop, Also, 3500 haste may be reachable in 397 gear if you sacrifice spirit? Sorry, but no.. You CAN'T sacrifice spirit so that WON'T be reachable, assuming the only way to reach 3500 rating is to reforge spirit. (and that's not the only way.)

    Please keep in mind that my stat priority is looking something like;
    Intellect>Spirit>>Mastery to ~2k>Haste to ~1k>Mastery to 2.5k>All other secondary stats into haste(crit rating shouldn't be on a single piece of your gear, end of discussion.)
    yup, it's possible to not have a single lickin' of crit on you gear, and it should be sought after too, because frankly, crit rating is fucking stupid. You get all the crit you need to maintain conviction and a decent amount of IoL procs through Intellect alone, not to mention the Holy Shock Glyph which is.. pretty decent for the first 5 in dragon soul, probably the entire raid. So 5% chance to crit on top of 10% chance from the talent.. that's 15% right there. and someone in full 397s is going to have ~20% crit from the amount of intellect on their gear alone, so... :P

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-01 at 07:28 PM ----------

    If you're going to present an equation, please go ALL out. Don't half ass it. If you half ass it it's going to be inaccurate and irrelevant. E.g, taking crit out of the equation, you know.. that thing that doubles the bubbles? Yeah.. that thing.
    Last edited by kiristus; 2011-11-01 at 07:28 PM.

  16. #56
    Actually, the 5th tick should be reachable without cooldowns if stacking haste in dragon soul gear

    3,489 haste needed for it, which looks to be doable (although maybe not for the top end guilds tackling the content in much worse gear).

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...hl=en_GB#gid=0

    EDIT: Also kiristus, increasing crit rate increases your throughput by the same proportion whether stacking mastery or haste. Unless it overheals.

  17. #57
    Stood in the Fire Maldriel's Avatar
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    If you have gear it's:
    Int>Haste>Spirit>Mastery>Crit


    If you have no gear and mana probs:
    Int>Spirit>Haste>Mastery>Crit

  18. #58
    Also, please don't misconstrue my reaction to feedback, comments, suggestions ect,ect. I appreciate every last bit of it and encourage more. I posted here to learn and to get insight about the stat priority I have chosen come 4.3 so don't feel down if you feel I'm just stepping on your post, that's not my intention and if you feel I have, then I deeply apologize. Anything you guys post is helping me make finalized decision on my stats, and it's been a big help so far.

    Thanks for reading and posting.

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-01 at 07:36 PM ----------

    Ahh, I see Ears, though I never said crit its self was bad, crit rating is bad, awful even. EDIT: In comparison to the amount of throughput granted by Mastery or Haste.
    And no, Maldriel I whole-heartily disagree. In 4.2 with Shard of Woe? Sure. 4.3? Nope.
    The more spirit you have the more you can abuse Divine Light, Holy Radiance and Flash of Light also, taking into consideration that in 4.3 paladins will get an additional 30% combat regen granted from spirit.. this remains more true than ever before.. unless of course you're rockin' something like 5k spirit (which isn't hard in full H DS gear and the proper trinket(s)) then.. it might be a litttllllee redundant, unless you're 1 healing 2 healed encounters and 2 healing 3 healed encounters.
    Last edited by kiristus; 2011-11-01 at 07:41 PM.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by kiristus View Post
    Also, please don't misconstrue my reaction to feedback, comments, suggestions ect,ect. I appreciate every last bit of it and encourage more. I posted here to learn and to get insight about the stat priority I have chosen come 4.3 so don't feel down if you feel I'm just stepping on your post, that's not my intention and if you feel I have, then I deeply apologize. Anything you guys post is helping me make finalized decision on my stats, and it's been a big help so far.

    Thanks for reading and posting.

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-01 at 07:36 PM ----------

    Ahh, I see Ears, though I never said crit its self was bad, crit rating is bad, awful even. EDIT: In comparison to the amount of throughput granted by Mastery or Haste.
    And no, Maldriel I whole-heartily disagree. In 4.2 with Shard of Woe? Sure. 4.3? Nope.
    The more spirit you have the more you can abuse Divine Light, Holy Radiance and Flash of Light also, taking into consideration that in 4.3 paladins will get an additional 30% combat regen granted from spirit.. this remains more true than ever before.. unless of course you're rockin' something like 5k spirit (which isn't hard in full H DS gear and the proper trinket(s)) then.. it might be a litttllllee redundant, unless you're 1 healing 2 healed encounters and 2 healing 3 healed encounters.
    I would like to know how you came to these numbers. Every test that you have done. Every calculation that you have run. I want to know your process so that I can make an informed decision. Until you can provide me with any empirical information you are just making up random numbers which is useless. So please tell me what you have done to figure out these numbers.
    --Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do- (B. Franklin)--

  20. #60
    Oh my gosh I deleted my answer ><

    So.Here and back again ><




    1) Yes you will reach the 5th tick with DF or BL. But with haste you'll reach the 6th maybe 7th with DF+BL+trinket. So it's pointless. It's just a comparison between X and Y you can compare X+5000 and y+5000 if you want it will not change anything.

    2) Yes with a critical strike you will do bigger shield via mastery stacking. But in the other hand you will cast a lot more spell with haste stacking (188 VS 235).The more you cast the more your chance of daybreak proc'ing are. More daybreak---> More chance to proc Infusion of light. So now you point this out I am not sure it will be in favor of mastery. The same for crit in general but I am not a pro with probability but :

    30% chance to crit on 235 spells > 30% chance to crit on 188.

    3) Yes (as I said at the bottom of my post) we will not be spamming HR all the time.But 2.5s is the casting time of DL, HL, HR. So feel free to replace by any of those.

    4) Then we can talk about instant spells like LoD, WoG. You will do a bigger shield on these spells TRUE, but a full haste build will generate a lot more HP than you ( 1.91s with 2K haste ratig VS 1.53s with 3k5 haste rating). I know you don't like that but I nulify HS HP generation because it's instant in each scenario and because I am only talking about HP generation and NOT throughput.

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-01 at 10:49 PM ----------

    But As I said I have not enough insight to see how much spirit we'll need.

    I agree with Maldariel about stat priorities IF we have mana issues.

    I'll will focus :

    http://ptr.wowhead.com/compare?items...80:75:40:35:30

    The same here with heroic gear

    http://ptr.wowhead.com/compare?items...41:77114:77989

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-01 at 10:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kiristus View Post
    And no, Maldriel I whole-heartily disagree. In 4.2 with Shard of Woe? Sure. 4.3? Nope.
    I agree with that because Shard of Woe was/will be nerf It reduces manacost by 205 "only" now
    Last edited by Shae; 2011-11-01 at 09:52 PM.

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